We didn't forget about the occupation

[sharonbn]

It may seem that between the social protests and gay parades, Israelis forgot about the ongoing occupation and plight of Palestinians for independence. but that's not the case,

Leftists protest against occupation in Tel Aviv

Gilad Morag
Published: 06.10.12, 00:33 / Israel News

Some 1,000 members of leftist organizations held a protest march against the occupation of Palestinian territories in Tel Aviv on Saturday.

Held under the banner "No social justice as long as the occupation persists" the protest marked 45 years to the occupation of Palestinian territories. Among the groups that took part in the event were The Coalition of Women for Peace, Yesh Gvul, Hadash and Balad.

The protesters carried signs which read "45 years of occupation, this stain cannot be wiped off" and "The people demand social justice and an end to the occupation and apartheid." They chanted "End the occupation" and "We want peace, we must fight."

"Our aim is to remind the Israeli public that the state has been controlling millions of Palestinians against their will and through the use of force for two thirds of its existence," said Gush Shalom spokesman Adam Keller. "All settlements, not just the Ulpana homes, are illegal."

He added, "We also want to say that social justice is not possible in this country as long as millions are oppressed and as long as inflated funds are being spent on settlements and security."

One of the organizers of the event Yaakov Manor said that the occupation is no longer part of Israeli consciousness since the construction of the separation fence.

"There is a disconnect, they're there and we're here," he said. "We want to wake people up, have the public discourse focus on the occupation again and tell the leaders of the social protest that they will never achieve social justice as long as there is occupation."

Daphni Ganeni said she is taking part in the protest "because I oppose the occupation and the funding of the settlements." She said that social justice is impossible "when my money is being used to fund settlements. It's a joke blaming Strauss and Tnuva when hundreds of apartments are being funded to compensate the settlers."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...240231,00.html

[Reffo]

If all the "settlers" would be ethnically cleansed from their homes, the housing crisis in Israel would become much worse. It is a myth that the "settlements" are the cause of the impasse. Compromise solutions exist that would allow the major settlement blocks to remain where they are while the Palestinians would have a viable state. The problem is that right now the Palestinians are not interested in compromise because they think that time is on their side.

[sharonbn]

The settlements may or may not be the cause of the impasse. However, it is well known that any peace deal will include removal of small and remote settlements. there is little point in leaving them (yet alone establishing new ones).

[Reffo]

The settlements may or may not be the cause of the impasse. However, it is well known that any peace deal will include removal of small and remote settlements. there is little point in leaving them (yet alone establishing new ones).

I have no disagreement with that. However, unilateral withdrawal even from the small settlements would give the wrong signal so it should not be contemplated.

So, theses leftists are barking up the wrong tree. They demonstrate against Israel who say they want to negotiate a peace deal. The Palestinians say they don't want to negotiate unless Israel accepts their preconditions (dictates). So nothing is happening. If they want progress, the leftists should target the Palestinians with their demonstrations and implore them to negotiate. Or at least, they should target the Palestinians too, not just Israel.

[Pleepleus]

The settlements may or may not be the cause of the impasse. However, it is well known that any peace deal will include removal of small and remote settlements. there is little point in leaving them (yet alone establishing new ones).

There were 80,000 Israelis living east of the security fence as of four years ago. Are these the "small and remote settlements" you are referring to?

"Our aim is to remind the Israeli public that the state has been controlling millions of Palestinians against their will and through the use of force for two thirds of its existence," said Gush Shalom spokesman Adam Keller. "All settlements, not just the Ulpana homes, are illegal."

Do you agree with Adam Keller that "All settlements, not just the Ulpana homes, are illegal"? Would you ethnically cleanse Aliyah1995 if it was in your power? Do you consider him a criminal?

[NewsGuy]

I wouldn't get too excited about the Leftist who attended the demonstration.

Since the disastrous ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Jewish population things have changed in Israel. The Leftists have lost their former popularity, because it became obvious that giving land to the Islamists was a huge mistake. The Palestinians used the Jewish land they got in Gaza to build bomb factories and missile launch sites. And peace talks did not advance at all. Meanwhile, most Israelis learned a very big lesson about where the Leftist agenda really leads, and the Leftist parties have all but disintegrated.

These days the remaining Leftists are just trying to regain their popularity by hoping to associate with the completely separate (and popular) social justice movement.That's what this past demonstration was really about.

[sharonbn]

There were 80,000 Israelis living east of the security fence as of four years ago. Are these the "small and remote settlements" you are referring to?

I was referring to settlements outside the large blocks: Gush Etzion, Maale Edomim, Givat Zeev, Pisgat Zeev, Ariel, Beitar Illit and perhaps some more i forgot. its according to the maps of the Geneva accord. I don't know how many settlers live there.

Do you agree with Adam Keller that "All settlements, not just the Ulpana homes, are illegal"? Would you ethnically cleanse Aliyah1995 if it was in your power? Do you consider him a criminal?

first of all, I don't consider the settlers criminals (not categorically) Most of the settlements were erected with gov't approval (among them is Efrat in Gush Etzion, home for Aliyah1995). The Geneva accord places Gush Etzion and other large blocks in Israeli control.

[Pleepleus]

I was referring to settlements outside the large blocks: Gush Etzion, Maale Edomim, Givat Zeev, Pisgat Zeev, Ariel, Beitar Illit and perhaps some more i forgot. its according to the maps of the Geneva accord. I don't know how many settlers live there...

Well, according to der Spiegel, the number was 80,000 in 2008. I have heard 100,000 quoted for the current number. And the government is still trying to resettle the 9,000 who were ethnically cleansed from Gaza in 2005 seven years later. Given what happened at Amona, this could get sticky.

[sharonbn]

the longer we wait, the harder it will become.
that's what bothers me: everyone seems to agree on the solution, yet no one understands the urgency of the matter, everyone is content to leave the stage to the extremists who rush to establish facts on the ground, making the implementation of the future agreement harder to realize

[Reffo]

the longer we wait, the harder it will become.
that's what bothers me: everyone seems to agree on the solution, yet no one understands the urgency of the matter, everyone is content to leave the stage to the extremists who rush to establish facts on the ground, making the implementation of the future agreement harder to realize

Who is everyone? It seems to me that even Abbas, the so called peace partner is talking about the 1967 borders plus the right of return of hundreds of thousands if not millions of Palestinians to Israel proper. Hamas of course is openly talking about the destruction of Israel. So where is this much talked about peace? Around the corner? Not likely!

[Pleepleus]

Who is everyone? It seems to me that even Abbas, the so called peace partner is talking about the 1967 borders plus the right of return of hundreds of thousands if not millions of Palestinians to Israel proper. Hamas of course is openly talking about the destruction of Israel. So where is this much talked about peace? Around the corner? Not likely!

I have to agree with Reffo. I do not believe the Palestinians are willing to make even the minimal compromises that would be necessary for a viable peace agreement (i.e. giving up the so-called Right of Return, recognition of Israel as the Jewish National Homeland against whom no further claims or demands can be made, and agreement to security arrangements that would prevent the West Bank from becoming another Gaza).

[Reffo]

This is the great "peace partner" with whom Israel is supposed to make a peace deal:

A month ago, President Abbas stood in this building and said the following (and I quote):

“I come before you today from the Holy Land, the land of Palestine, the land of divine messages, ascension of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and the birthplace of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him).”

He denied 4,000 years of Jewish history. It was not a small omission. It was not an oversight. The Palestinian leadership attempts to erase the connection between the Jewish people and the Land of Israel

A great speech from Ron Prosor of Israel’s UNMission
Statement byH.E. Mr. Ron Prosor, Permanent Representative of the Permanent Mission of Israel to the UN
24 October 2011

[sharonbn]

like I said elsewhere, perhaps the Saudi Arabian initiative is a way out of the stalemate?

[Reffo]

like I said elsewhere, perhaps the Saudi Arabian initiative is a way out of the stalemate?

Saudi Initiative = 1967 borders = ethnic cleansing of 500,000 "settlers"
Saudi Initiative = "Right of Return" of millions of Palestinians into Israel proper.
Saudi Initiative = Israel has to give up all of East Jerusalem.
Saudi Initiative = No recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

[dayag]

Saudi Initiative = 1967 borders = ethnic cleansing of 500,000 "settlers"
Saudi Initiative = "Right of Return" of millions of Palestinians into Israel proper.
Saudi Initiative = Israel has to give up all of East Jerusalem.
Saudi Initiative = No recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.

Yes, but for all its faults, the Saudi Initiative was still a big step forward from the three No's of Khartoum. Even the Palestinians talk about the pre-1967 cease fire lines as if they are the final borders. They are tiring of the conflict as well (except for Hamas and their numerous supporters who at least are honest about their intentions).

If the right of return is limited to those 30,000 or so who actually are refugees (and not their millions of descendants) that part of it would not be a problem. Especially if the right of return is contingent on the returning refugees swearing to be loyal citizens of Israel. I wonder if Abbas would avail himself of this right with that proviso?!

Also, if the Palestinians and Israelis came to an agreement on the borders, I don't think the Saudis and other Arab nations would object. Olmert and Abbas were only a couple of percentage points apart on how much territory in the West Bank that Israel would retain. So, it could feasibly be done.

However recognition of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people is necessary if this is to completely end the conflict. And the final agreement must clearly rule out any further claims or demands down the road.