Barak: 50% haredim to IDF, rest to national service

[sharonbn]

The meaning of Israel Defense Forces to the Israeli people (at least the secular portion) is much much more then a regular army in the western world. The Israeli army serves as melting pot and rite of passage to immigrants.
It is viewed as symbol of unity and community and of the willingness of each individual to contribute to the greater cause.
It is also a symbol of our strength and independence. It is the Israelis' answer to the sheepish people who went to the slaughter and a guarantee against a second Holocaust.
For a secular (and national religious) Israeli, army service is not a job or even a duty, it is an honor.

This is also why we view and treat our soldiers as much more then just soldiers, even to the point of regarding them as family members. This is evident in the nation's regard towards POWs and kidnapped soldiers.

[Aliyah1995]

I have to agree with Sharon here. I, myself am an Oleh (immigrant). Hence my username (Duh!!!!) and I consider my IDF service having been an integral part to my klita (absorption) into Israeli society. This is NOT to say I feel like a "true" Israeli, as having come here at age 24 I will always have a different mentality and the Sabras (native Israelis) never fail to remind me that I am "that American". I'll leave being a "true" Israeli to my Israeli born kids Nevertheless, having done many years of miluim I feel like I understand the Israeli physche more than I would if I hadn't served in the IDF.

Also, with all the talk of the rate of draft dodging going up, there is still a stigma (save the Haredim and Arabs) towards any Israeli who does not serve, especially for men. The IDF is so much a part of the culture here that I just do not see it becoming a "professional army", not to mention I don't think our security needs make that possible in the near future. Most Israelis still want to serve and the demand to serve in combat remains quite high.

[curlyg]

So there will probably be early elections, then (PS: On the other hand, Lieberman doesn't want one yet). It is still kind of pathetic to see how little this coalition lasted though.

Best of luck with this, guys. I sometimes wonder if Israel should move towards having a professional army and a compulsory national service (military or civilian, depending on the person's choice) perhaps with pay (with a higher one for soldiers, of course). But then one would need to know how many people would actually be willing to pick the military route...

This would be ideal, but I suspect there just aren't enough people in Israel for a professional army to work.

Imo, the next 2-3 years will determine this issue. If nothing happens in that period, this is a lost cause.

[curlyg]

The meaning of Israel Defense Forces to the Israeli people (at least the secular portion) is much much more then a regular army in the western world. The Israeli army serves as melting pot and rite of passage to immigrants.
It is viewed as symbol of unity and community and of the willingness of each individual to contribute to the greater cause.
It is also a symbol of our strength and independence. It is the Israelis' answer to the sheepish people who went to the slaughter and a guarantee against a second Holocaust.
For a secular (and national religious) Israeli, army service is not a job or even a duty, it is an honor.

This is also why we view and treat our soldiers as much more then just soldiers, even to the point of regarding them as family members. This is evident in the nation's regard towards POWs and kidnapped soldiers.

I have to agree with Sharon here. I, myself am an Oleh (immigrant). Hence my username (Duh!!!!) and I consider my IDF service having been an integral part to my klita (absorption) into Israeli society. This is NOT to say I feel like a "true" Israeli, as having come here at age 24 I will always have a different mentality and the Sabras (native Israelis) never fail to remind me that I am "that American". I'll leave being a "true" Israeli to my Israeli born kids Nevertheless, having done many years of miluim I feel like I understand the Israeli physche more than I would if I hadn't served in the IDF.

Also, with all the talk of the rate of draft dodging going up, there is still a stigma (save the Haredim and Arabs) towards any Israeli who does not serve, especially for men. The IDF is so much a part of the culture here that I just do not see it becoming a "professional army", not to mention I don't think our security needs make that possible in the near future. Most Israelis still want to serve and the demand to serve in combat remains quite high.

This is a fair point - and historically the army has played this role that you're talking about... But I have to wonder whether this is really a good justification any more. Arabs don't serve, Haredim don't serve, many women don't serve, immigrants above a certain age (of which there are many) don't serve, and increasingly significant numbers of seculars are evading service for various reasons. Bearing that in mind, the notion that the army helps to meld Israeli society together looks, at this stage, like national mythology more than reality. And even if it were so - is the army the right institution to do this? Other immigrant nations manage to forge a common culture without using the institution of the military to that end (to varying degrees of success of course - like Aliyah points out it is always difficult for first generation immigrants no matter what).

There's something to be said for the idea of the entire society contributing as one to better their common home and the state. I'm not disagreeing with that. But I don't think the military should be idealised - conscription is an act of desperation, of desperate necessity, borne out of a need to ensure the survival of the state. The other functions that it may or may not serve are secondary and coincidental (e.g. arguably the military bands produced some of the best music in Israel in their time, but nobody would argue the military is essential for good music. Nor is it necessary for forging a common identity). We would all be lucky to see a day when that state of necessity doesn't exist any more and conscription is abolished in favour of some other method of bringing Israelis together.

[Aliyah1995]

Curlyg, I wouldn't put immigrants who came to Israel above a certain age (hence the IDF did not want them) in the same category as Haredim, who en mass dodge the draft and Arabs, who refuse to do national service (IMO Arabs, with few exceptions, should do national service, rather than the army but that is another story).

I personally know Olim who came to Israel in their late 20's or early 30's (in perfect shape) and were getting down on their hands and knees begging the IDF to take them, but the IDF did not want them. To put them in the same category as the others you mentioned would not be fair.

[curlyg]

Curlyg, I wouldn't put immigrants who came to Israel above a certain age (hence the IDF did not want them) in the same category as Haredim, who en mass dodge the draft and Arabs, who refuse to do national service (IMO Arabs, with few exceptions, should do national service, rather than the army but that is another story).

I personally know Olim who came to Israel in their late 20's or early 30's (in perfect shape) and were getting down on their hands and knees begging the IDF to take them, but the IDF did not want them. To put them in the same category as the others you mentioned would not be fair.

I know, but that wasn't my point. What I was getting at is that huge segments of Israeli society don't serve in the military any more (for a wide variety of reasons, as you point out) - whatever the reason, the end result is that the military isn't really serving to unify Israeli society anymore, even if it once did.

[Aliyah1995]

Fair enough, but there were always large segments who haven't served (Haredim, for the most part, never served, Arabs, save Druzim and Bedouin, never served, immigrants above a certain age, granted the cut off age used to be higher, didn't serve). The only difference today is that there might be more secular getting out of (or dodging) serving. However, the bulk of Israelis DO serve in the IDF and the ones who don't (for the most part) are nothing new (not saying this is ok, but just nothing new that threatens the unifying factor of the IDF anymore than it did 20 or 40 years ago).

[curlyg]

Fair enough, but there were always large segments who haven't served (Haredim, for the most part, never served, Arabs, save Druzim and Bedouin, never served, immigrants above a certain age, granted the cut off age used to be higher, didn't serve). The only difference today is that there might be more secular getting out of (or dodging) serving. However, the bulk of Israelis DO serve in the IDF and the ones who don't (for the most part) are nothing new (not saying this is ok, but just nothing new that threatens the unifying factor of the IDF anymore than it did 20 or 40 years ago).

The categories of people aren't new - but I think their numbers are. Once, those segments that didn't serve represented a relatively smaller portion of the state's population. Today, there are more Arabs, more Haredim, more non-serving seculars, more non-serving women, and certainly more older immigrants since the wave of immigration from the FSU among others. I guess the IDF is still a unifying factor for a large percentage of the population - but let's not overstate that aspect of it. That's not really the point of the army anyway, if we want a place for people to serve together there are other options. The army is there to defend the state, at its root. If it were possible, a professional army would be a better solution.

[wat0n]

The meaning of Israel Defense Forces to the Israeli people (at least the secular portion) is much much more then a regular army in the western world. The Israeli army serves as melting pot and rite of passage to immigrants.
It is viewed as symbol of unity and community and of the willingness of each individual to contribute to the greater cause.
It is also a symbol of our strength and independence. It is the Israelis' answer to the sheepish people who went to the slaughter and a guarantee against a second Holocaust.
For a secular (and national religious) Israeli, army service is not a job or even a duty, it is an honor.

This is also why we view and treat our soldiers as much more then just soldiers, even to the point of regarding them as family members. This is evident in the nation's regard towards POWs and kidnapped soldiers.

I'm fully aware of this (for South Americans like me it is weird to see the status of the military in Israel, it is radically different from the status and the history of the militaries here), but I'm not sure you need a military service to be able to integrate the different segments of Israeli society.

I'm sure there is plenty of things that could be done by civilians, and that a civilian service could potentially help to integrate Israelis as well. Since as you say most Israelis do want to serve in the military, is it necessary - as far as military necesity goes - to draft everyone in the IDF? Couldn't Israel gain a lot by having many of those who could be in the military doing other kind of useful services for Israel while at the same time fostering social integration and easing resistance for a draft among Arabs and Haredim? Yes, the burden would not be "equal" for everyone - I'm willing to bet that being a soldier in a country at war like Israel is much more demanding than doing civilian service - but it would be more equal than now, and perhaps it would still help people integrate.

I don't know, I just think the idea deserves serious consideration.

[Aliyah1995]

The categories of people aren't new - but I think their numbers are. Once, those segments that didn't serve represented a relatively smaller portion of the state's population. Today, there are more Arabs, more Haredim, more non-serving seculars, more non-serving women, and certainly more older immigrants since the wave of immigration from the FSU among others. I guess the IDF is still a unifying factor for a large percentage of the population - but let's not overstate that aspect of it. That's not really the point of the army anyway, if we want a place for people to serve together there are other options. The army is there to defend the state, at its root. If it were possible, a professional army would be a better solution.

I don't think the percentage of Arabs is DRASTICALLY higher than it was before. The Haredi population has certainly grown, but I believe they are counterbalanced (at least for now) by the high number of immigrants from the FSU who do serve (and for those too old to serve, their kids do) a high percentage in combat units, as well as the Ethiopian Aliyah, which also produced a high number of motivated soldiers.

I agree that the purpose of an army is first and foremost to defend the State (have even stated than on another thread), but we can't deny the cultural factor that the IDF has always had in Israel and that is not going away in the near future. Indeed, from a security POV, Israel is a LONG way from a "professional army".

[Aliyah1995]

watOn-

Couldn't Israel gain a lot by having many of those who could be in the military doing other kind of useful services for Israel while at the same time fostering social integration and easing resistance for a draft among Arabs and Haredim?

In theory, I don't see any reason why an able bodied Haredi with a profile of 97 (the highest profile you can have in the IDF) and who isn't cut out to sit and study Torah 16 hours a day (and there are many within the Haredi community; not everyone born in the Haredi community is cut out to be a Gaon in Torah) should not enlist in the IDF. On this, I agree with Curlyg, albeit our disagreement is on how to get there.

As far as the Arabs, I believe they should do national service rather than the army, save few exceptions. Without getting into the reasons, I believe they are obvious. I believe that anyone who completed his/her national service should be just as qualified for any job (save few exceptions, like jobs having security factors involved) and not discriminated against. For example, there is no reason why one who did national service, rather than the army should not be able to work for Bezek (the Israeli phone company).

Israel is facing more and more security challenges all the time, especially with the Egyptian border having been a "quiet" border for many years now turning into a serious threat. Whenever I had reserve duty on the Egyptian border (rather than in Gaza), I would joke around about bringing lots of books to read, as the most exciting thing that would happen is a cat might jump over the fence. Not so anymore. Now one who has reserve duty on the Egyptian border needs to be just as alert as we used to have to be when we did reserve duty in Gaza. The Syrian border doesn't look to good either. This is hardly the time to decrease manpower in the IDF, but to increase it. A "professional army" is just not in the cards for now.

[curlyg]

I recall reading that before the 2006 Lebanon war Israel was considering reducing the service period to 18 months, and Barak was on about making the IDF a smaller more professional force... Someone must have thought this was viable. I agree with you though Aliyah, I suspect that purely on the numbers there just aren't enough Israelis to man a sufficiently large professional army that can effectively defend the country.

[Aliyah1995]

Curlyg, do you have a source about reducing the service period to 18 months? I do remember reading something about shortening the service for men from 36 months to 32 months and shortening it for women as well. However, 18 months I don't remember.

At any rate, a) lots has happened since before the Second Lebanon War (see my last post) and b) then why all the hype about the Haredim not serving, "equal burden for all", etc. etc. if the top IDF brass are talking about making the IDF a "smaller, professional army"?

[curlyg]

I wasn't able to find anything re the 18 months number - however as far as I can tell the plan was to gradually reduce the duration of service beginning in 2006, see:

http://www.mod.gov.il/pages/general/dochVaada.pdf

2. יש לחתור בהתמדה להעמדת שירות החובה לגברים ונשים כאחד על שנתיים. קיצור שירות החובה ייושם בהדרגה. חתירה ליעד זה תצמצם גם את הפער הקיים בין משך השירות של הגברים לבין משך השירות של הנשים.
3. בשלב א' שירות החובה לבנים יקוצר מ-36 חודשים ל-32 חודשים. קיצור השירות יחול על כל הגברים שיגויסו החל במחזור יולי 2006 ואילך, וכן על כל הגברים המשרתים
היום שמועד שחרורם המקורי צפוי מאוגוסט 2007 ואילך. קיצור השירות האמור לא
יחול על המשרתים במסלולים מקוצרים.
4. בשלב ב' יקוצר שירות החובה לכל הגברים ב-ארבעה חודשים נוספים, מ-32 חודשים ל-28 חודשים. השלב השני ייושם בשנת 2010. הממשלה תוכל לדחות את המועד האמור אם תחול הרעה במצב הביטחון.
5. במטרה ליעל את שירות החובה, ועל מנת ליצור תמריץ לקיצור מתמשך במשך שירות החובה, יוכל הצבא לקצר את שירותם של חלק מהבנים ב-ארבעה חודשים נוספים. כלומר,בשלב א' שירות החובה של הבנים יתוחם בין שירות מינימלי של 28 חודשים
לשירות ְמרבי של 32 חודשים על פי צרכי הצבא. בשלב ב' יתוחם שירות הבנים בין
שירות מינימלי של 24 חודשים לשירות ְמרבי של 28 חודשים.
6. חייל בשירות חובה שישרת על פי החלטת צה"ל מעבר לתקופת המינימום )בשלב א' מעל 28 חודשים ולא יותר מ- 32 חודשים ובשלב ב' מעל 24 חודשים ולא יותר מ-28
חודשים(, יזכה ב"גמול התמדה". גמול זה יהיה אחיד ויצטרף לתמורות הנוכחיות להן זכאי החייל. גובה הגמול ייקבע כך, שסך כל התקבולים של החייל בכסף ובעין יהיו בגובה עלות השכר הממוצע במשק לגברים בגיל 21, ובלבד שסך כל התקבולים לחייל
החובה, לא יעלה על שכר המשרתים בצבא קבע לתקופה קצרה.

Para 2 above states the ultimate goal was 2 years service, so 24 months.

[curlyg]

And by the way, if the IDF brass are convinced that a professional army will do (and I came across quite a bit of military-academic writing on this while I was searching for that report) then I'm all for it, and we can remove this festering issue of the Haredim once and for all. But for so long as there is a universal draft, it should be applied equally.