German court declares circumcisions a crime

[dayag]

Anti-Semitic cartoons are ok with Cologne's prosecutors, but circumcisions are prosecuted!

BERLIN – A regional court in the west German city of Cologne issued a decision terming circumcisions to be a form of bodily harm and subject to criminal penalties, according to the German language edition of the Financial Times (FTD) on Monday, triggering an angry reaction from the Central Council of Jews on Tuesday...

The Central Council called on the "Bundestag as lawmaker to create legal security so that religious freedom is protected." The FTD, which obtained a copy of the court ruling, wrote that it was the first time in Germany that a religious practice has been criminalized. The Cologne case revolves around the circumcision of a four-year-old child. The parents brought the child to a Muslim physician who performed the circumcision. It is unclear from the report if the child is Muslim. After two days, the child suffered from bleeding and was taken to an emergency center for children. The local prosecutor filed charges against the person who performed the circumcision. According to the court's ruling, the case represents a "severe and irreversible damage of physical integrity."...

It is not the first time that Cologne's prosecutorial and legal system has triggered national controversy in Germany. In 2010, the public prosecutor ruled that a cartoon exhibit, widely believed to be anti-Semitic, did not meet the criteria of incitement to hate because it did not constitute hatred of Jews and the petitioner, who objected to the exhibit, was not Jewish. One cartoon shows a man sporting a Star of David on his bib as he devours a young Palestinian boy with a fork draped in an American flag and a knife with the word "Gaza." A glass filled with blood stands next to to his dinner plate. Gerd Buurmann, the non-Jewish resident, who termed the exhibit anti-Semitic, has waged a two year campaign to prevent the permanent cartoon and photo exhibit to be displayed on the central square in Cologne....

[dayag]

Updates:

The Berlin Jewish Hospital has announced it will cease to conduct circumcisions following a ruling by the district court in Cologne to outlaw them. According to the hospital's spokesman, "As a result of the lack of legal clarity, the institution has been forced to cease circumcision surgeries for religious purposes until further notice."

source: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.447850

German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle weighed in Friday on a controversial German court ruling on circumcision, saying the country protected religious freedom and traditions.

“The ruling on circumcision has provoked annoyance internationally,” Westerwelle wrote on his official Twitter account, according to a report on AFP.

“We have to be clear: religious traditions are protected in Germany,” he added.

source: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...5#.T--YjZB0gfw

[Reffo]

. The Cologne case revolves around the circumcision of a four-year-old child. The parents brought the child to a Muslim physician who performed the circumcision. It is unclear from the report if the child is Muslim. After two days, the child suffered from bleeding and was taken to an emergency center for children. The local prosecutor filed charges against the person who performed the circumcision. According to the court's ruling, the case represents a "severe and irreversible damage of physical integrity."...

Interesting logic. Circumcision is an ancient religious practice. Millions of circumcisions have been performed over thousands of years and the vast majority of those have been without any adverse effects. Like all operations, a small minority (very small percentage) leads to complications. And this German court wants to ban this religious practice because of those minute risks? Fine then. By the same logic, they should ban all cosmetic surgeries and elective surgeries. I know, for children only till they come of age and can make their own choice. I wonder if they will come up with such a ruling? Somehow I doubt it because some children would truly pay a very heavy price if such a practice would be enforced. Imagine having to grow up with some debilitating cosmetic disfigurement which could easily be fixed in early childhood but under this precedent should be prevented by the state till the child comes of age ...

[curlyg]

Interesting logic. Circumcision is an ancient religious practice. Millions of circumcisions have been performed over thousands of years and the vast majority of those have been without any adverse effects. Like all operations, a small minority (very small percentage) leads to complications. And this German court wants to ban this religious practice because of those minute risks? Fine then. By the same logic, they should ban all cosmetic surgeries and elective surgeries. I know, for children only till they come of age and can make their own choice. I wonder if they will come up with such a ruling? Somehow I doubt it because some children would truly pay a very heavy price if such a practice would be enforced. Imagine having to grow up with some debilitating cosmetic disfigurement which could easily be fixed in early childhood but under this precedent should be prevented by the state till the child comes of age ...

I disagree with the court's ruling - I think circumcision should be legal and within the discretion of the parents of the infant. Having said that there is a fairly significant case against infant circumcision...

You actually defeated your own point here Reffo. The reason that these kinds of cosmetic surgeries are unproblemtic for infants and children is that they would, as you say, 'pay a very heavy price' if the surgeries were not carried out in their infancy. There's an urgency that justifies not waiting. That case is a little harder to make when it comes to circumcision.

[Aliyah1995]

This ugly monster is rearing it's head on one of our favorite sites, +972:

http://972mag.com/stand-up-for-your-...mcision/49669/

http://972mag.com/my-inadequate-just...mcision/49694/

http://972mag.com/outlawing-circumci...ophobic/49708/

My responses:

I won’t touch on the question of whether the anti-circumcision law in Germany is anti-semitic/Muslim because it is. I will touch on the argument that “because the infant has no say in the matter it shouldn’t be done”. Using this logic, then shouldn’t it be forbidden for vegetarian parents to deny their children meat. Their is no small amount of evidence that meat is an essential part of one’s diet:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...us-425192.html

Yeah, I know, there are also arguments that meat is not essential as iron can be provided by other foods, but that is the point: there is a debate. And there is no more evidence that circumcision is such a big trauma for the infant that it will effect him later in life, hinder his sex life (that is my favorite one; hello, the Haredim hardly seem to have their sex life effected having 11 kids and all….LOL), cause permanent psychological damage, etc. than that meat is an essential part of one’s diet.

So, if a law was passed that any parent/s denying their children meat be accused of child abuse and their children be taken from them, what would you all say to that? After all, when one is 18, one can decide to be a vegetarian for himself, but to make that decision for your kids. Based on enough scientific evidence, that is wrong?

Not to mention buying your children cellphones when there is DEFINITELY proof that using them increases chances of cancer.

And the list goes on….

and

The KGB in the Former Soviet Union tried to ban ALL Jewish customs, including circumcision. They closed down all the mikvehs. They forbade Jewish schools from operating. They forbade Hebrew from being taught. Guess what?!?! The FSU is no more and Chabad is flourishing where the FSU once was!!!! We will survive the “enlightened progressives” as well, whether in Israel or without.

[dayag]

...The KGB in the Former Soviet Union tried to ban ALL Jewish customs, including circumcision. They closed down all the mikvehs. They forbade Jewish schools from operating. They forbade Hebrew from being taught. Guess what?!?! The FSU is no more and Chabad is flourishing where the FSU once was!!!! We will survive the “enlightened progressives” as well, whether in Israel or without.

Well said, Aliyah. Outlawing circumcision is outlawing Judaism. I hope any Jews living in countries or places which outlaw the practice will return home to Israel.

[Reffo]

The good news is that both cleft lip and cleft palate are treatable. Most kids born with these can have surgery to repair these defects within the first 12-18 months of life

Cleft Lip And Palate]

Clearly it shouldn't be Treatable in childhood according to the German court's logic.

[Reffo]

"severe and irreversible damage of physical integrity."...

The fact that the operation is irreversible is beyond dispute. But it is a bare faced lie to call the damage severe. In fact, circumcision offers a number of health benefits. Two that come to mind ...

1. Better hygine
2. Documented evidence that circumcised men are less likely to contract sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS

[dayag]

...But it is a bare faced lie to call the damage severe...

Severe damage? I was circumcised at 8 days old and couldn't walk for nearly a year! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Reffo]

Nowdays many Jewish parents organize the circumcision of their infant sons in hospitals. What this law will do, is not stop circumcisions. It will force parents to do the circumcision in private homes because Jewish and Muslim parents are not going to give up religious laws that they observed for thousands of years. There will still be a huge safety margin but obviously not as much as there would be in hospitals.

[dayag]

Nowdays many Jewish parents organize the circumcision of their infant sons in hospitals. What this law will do, is not stop circumcisions. It will force parents to do the circumcision in private homes because Jewish and Muslim parents are not going to give up religious laws that they observed for thousands of years. There will still be a huge safety margin but obviously not as much as there would be in hospitals.

My son was circumcised in a non-Jewish hospital by our Jewish doctor with our Rabbi officiating his Bris. The hospital was very nice about it, letting us come back eight days later at no extra charge. But, yeah, if it had been illegal, I would have done it myself if necessary.

[Reffo]

But, yeah, if it had been illegal, I would have done it myself if necessary...

Then you are a better man than me, gunga dhin. I must say, when we had my son circumcised, he was about 8 days old, I couldn't even look in that direction, I was too cowardly. It was done in hospital by a Jewish doctor. The whole thing was over in a jiffy, no drama at all. There was a short cry and that was it. I was actually surprised how quickly he got over it.

[Aliyah1995]

It is actually known that a mohel has less of a chance of making a mistake in circumcisions than a doctor who also does circumcisions because a mohel is trained SPECIFICALLY for circumcisions. I had a front seat for our son's brit. Of course he cried a bit (like all babies do during circumcision), but once it was over it was over.

My favorite claim is that it hinders one's sex life Seriously, to those idiots I say maybe there are other reasons they have issues with their sex life and the circumcision is a convenient excuse

[dayag]

...My favorite claim is that it hinders one's sex life Seriously, to those idiots I say maybe there are other reasons they have issues with their sex life and the circumcision is a convenient excuse

Yeah, that is ridiculous. I know a Russian Jew who was circumcised after he made aliyah and he said it made no difference to his sex life.

[Aliyah1995]

I would also like to add a fly to the ointment here. There are many rational Torah observant Jews out there who, after much soul searching (or even without, for that matter) are more and more in favor of there being separation of religion and state in Israel. I am one of them. I am sure all the posters who have been in this forum long enough remember my being pretty conservative when it came to religion and state in Israel. For example, I used to be adamantly against civil marriages in Israel (at least between Jews and non-Jews), but then after much soul searching came to the conclusion that as much as it pains me to see Jews intermarry (it would pain me that much more to see it in Israel), coercion has NEVER brought Jews closer to Torah. Also, there would no longer be pressure for the Orthodox (Haredi or "modern") to "lower the bar" if you will when it comes to their conversions because there would be other marriage options available (civil, non-Orthodox, or otherwise). Here is the link to the thread: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...n-Israel/page5
Notice the very last post on the thread (#61) and you will see a world of difference between that one and my previous posts on that thread.

However, when some schmucks come along (like our +972 buddies) and say that circumcision on infants should be banned in Israel (of course, eyes are on Germany right now, but this ugly monster could rear it's head here as well), it make me take a couple of steps back from my "soul searching" and, once again, feel happy that there is NOT separation of religion and state and that the Rabbinate has as much power as it does.

In other words, these extremist are pushing otherwise rational Torah observant individuals like myself back into the arms of the Rabbinate.

Good work