curlyg, thanks for taking the time to respond. but i still don't understand. Isn't your claim to the land based on your historical ancestral presence on the land? And only genealogy( genetics) can scientifically determine this.
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curlyg, thanks for taking the time to respond. but i still don't understand. Isn't your claim to the land based on your historical ancestral presence on the land? And only genealogy( genetics) can scientifically determine this.
I'm a Zionist. Meaning, to use language that hasn't been twisted by propaganda for your convenience, I am a Jewish nationalist. That means that I believe that the Jews aren't a 'race' (race is, biologically, a dubious concept) - we're a people. In that sense, we're Jews irrespective of whether 12 generations back one of our great uncles was a Khazar or a Gypsy or a Bulgarian. I couldn't care less. It's about belonging to a certain tradition - valuing a certain language, a culture, an intellectual tradition, a community, a religion, an attachment to the Holy Land, and all the other diverse factors that make us a single community -- a single nation.Originally Posted by magnanimous
What unites the American people? Their common race? Or their acceptance of certain core ideals and values that are the essence of what it means to be American? Obviously the latter. What makes you think to be Jewish is in any way different?
I consider that the Jewish people are descendants of the Israelites - both in an ancestral sense, but more importantly, in the sense that we are the inheritors of their national and cultural legacy. Our claim to a state of our own is based on fundamental universal human rights, namely the right of all peoples to self-determination.
Mind you, two Jews three opinions. I'm sure there will be Jews who disagree with my opinion, including some members of this forum.
Curlyg, sounds good to me. We might have our disagreements, but brave on your last post
"Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed
This is cute and poetic but in reality the Muslims can argue the exact same thing as well as the Christians since the Holy land is very much revered by both. So how does this give only you the right to claim that land?
Not true. America is home to people from all parts of the world and many of its people do not share the same ideals nor do they share the same values.
Palestinians feel the same way.
Did you ever hear of the "two state solution"? Granted, there are Israelis (myself included) who have our fears about such an arrangement, but that's why this solution is considered the most pragmatic one by any sane minded person.This is cute and poetic but in reality the Muslims can argue the exact same thing as well as the Christians since the Holy land is very much revered by both. So how does this give only you the right to claim that land?
"Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed
There is no so-called "right of all peoples to self-determanation". There are many nationalities without an independent state (Western Saharans, Basques, Kurds, Tibetans, etc).
The price for a Palestinian state is peace with Israel. Sadly, they don't seem to be willing to pay that price.
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"
"Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).
Maybe you haven't heard but arabs were on that land, in majority, before the jews decided to pour into the region following the holocaust - with the help of a military that is. No one cares about who lived there 10 000 years ago lol. That's like me living in a house for 50 years and then suddenly u come in with a bunch of gangsters and kick me and my family out of our home- on the premise that you had a family member who lived in my house 10 000 years ago lol. Comeon. Not a solid claim, sounds more like parody.
Your own people agree: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTpLN6Py8go
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IapWP8hq9Mc
Um, the Arabs were on the lands there villages were on. The majority of the land was barren and not "owned" by Arabs or Jews, but was under the control of the Ottoman Turks, then the British, and then was recommended to be partitioned (one state for Jews and one for Arabs). Also, the majority population of Jerusalem was Jewish by the mid 19th century (WELL before the Holocaust). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are an ignoramus, rather than having an agenda (at least for now)....
"Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed
Nothing cute or poetic about it. You've apparently only just discovered that Jews are not the only nation on the face of the earth, and that other groups can potentially be regarded as nations. I'm happy for you, I guess...
Jews' attachment to the holy land is, as far as I'm concerned, self-evident. You haven't even disputed it. You've just said that there are other people with different kinds of attachment to the land, which I'm quite happy to admit. As I've already made perfectly clear, the reason Jews are entitled to Israel in this day and age is that they are guaranteed the basic right to self-determination.
Am I talking to a brick wall or something? "America is home to people from all parts of the world" -- right, that's why I said it has nothing to do with ethnicity or race. "Many of its people do not share the same ideals or values" -- right, like all nations, there's a variety of views and opinions within the population. But certainly we can say there are certain values and ideals that typically characterise Americans as a people. A strong belief in individual liberty comes to mind immediately, a political and intellectual distrust of centralised government authority, and much more. Fact is, at the end of the day Americans consider themselves to be a single people because they share a certain core identity based around these sorts of things.Not true. America is home to people from all parts of the world and many of its people do not share the same ideals nor do they share the same values.
Did I suggest otherwise? You asked about Israel, I gave you an answer about Israel. Generally when people engage in logical discussion, the responses you receive will correspond to the questions you ask. Drop the sanctimonious lecturing tone and be up front about what it is you want to talk about. If you want to talk about Palestinians, I'm sure people will be happy to oblige.Palestinians feel the same way.
Article 1 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
2. All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.
3. The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.
So, evidently you don't agree that the price for an independent Palestinian state is peace with Israel?
If the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and east Jerusalem have a right to freely determine their political status; then so to do the Arabs who form the majority of the population in the Galilee, the Triangle, and Bedouin areas of the northern Negev. And this would leave Israel completely indefensible.
source: http://www.israellawresourcecenter.o...nrightslaw.htm"4. Israel denies that the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, both of which it has signed, are applicable to the occupied Palestinian territory. It asserts that humanitarian law is the protection granted in a conflict situation such as the one in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, whereas human rights treaties were intended for the protection of citizens from their own Government in times of peace."
Last edited by dayag; 07-29-2012 at 12:33 PM.
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"
"Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).
You are showing off your ignorance. There has always been a Jewish presence in the land of Israel going back at least 3200 years. The Zionists didn't invade the country after the Holocaust. They began arriving in the 1880's peacefully under the Turks and later the British mandate. It was the Arab nations who invaded and attempted to exterminate the Jewish community. They were the gangsters and their attempt to commit genocide led to the current situation.
"If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"
"Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).
Well, if you believe that then I guess it's fair to say Israel has been around for 64 years, so... Well, I'll let you tell me what that means
I wouldn't put it in those terms, no. I think they are entitled to a state, on the same grounds as we are. I do think that such a state will only come into existence as a result of an agreement reached through the peace process though.
They do have that right, but in the case of the Israeli Arabs it must be exercised internally within the existing boundaries of the state of Israel. In many ways they're already doing it given the quite high degree of autonomy they have in various spheres of life (marriage/family law, education, language, etc.)If the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and east Jerusalem have a right to freely determine their political status; then so to do the Arabs who form the majority of the population in the Galilee, the Triangle, and Bedouin areas of the northern Negev. And this would leave Israel completely indefensible.
Firstly, Israel is wrong on that point. But I don't want to get into that argument, so I'll just point out that self-determination is also a rule under customary international law, so it's not confined to the ICCPR and it definitely binds Israel.
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