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Thread: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

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    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    This is TRULY tragic and there are too many Israeli citizens in a similar predicament:

    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=277565

    ‘Moshe Silman was too proud to live on the streets' By RUTH EGLASH07/15/2012 20:33Family of man who lit himself on fire says he had "no choice left"; Silman remains in critical condition. Photo: Asaf Kliger
    Moshe Silman, the Haifa resident who set himself on fire at Saturday night’s social justice protest, is a proud man who is just not willing to lose his dignity and become homeless, close relatives and rights activists said of him on Sunday.

    “He had no choices left and was just not ready to live on the streets,” said Rabbi Idit Lev, manager of the Social Justice Project at Rabbis for Human Rights, who has been in close contact with Silman for more than a year in an attempt to help him navigate the difficult bureaucracy and get the state to help him.

    Related:
    The problem with the social justice movement
    Netanyahu calls self-immolation a 'personal tragedy'
    Despite all attempts, however, Lev said that Silman – who was recently recognized as 100 percent disabled by the National Insurance Institute (NII) – was receiving only NIS 2,300 in state benefits and was informed recently that he was not eligible for government housing. He was facing eviction in less than two weeks from the apartment where he had been living for free over the past year.

    “The irony is that if he had gone to live on the streets just for two or three weeks, then the state would have helped him but he was just too proud, he refused to lose that pride,” commented Lev.

    She said that other rights activists who had grown close to Silman – described as in his late 50s – over the year since last summer’s social justice protests, knew that if he ended up with nowhere to live, there would be a big problem.

    “I just do not understand how the state could have let this happen to someone,” added Lev, emphasizing that there are many other people who are in similar dire straits.

    “We are also asking ourselves this same question,” said Silman’s brother- in-law Amram Elul, who was waiting Sunday with other relatives at Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer to see if he would pull through. A hospital spokesman said Silman is in critical condition, with burns on 90% of his body.

    “The doctors say he needs a miracle to pull through,” lamented Elul, who last spoke to Silman just over a week ago and called the NII to see why his brother-in-law’s disability check had not arrived.

    “He told me that he was not feeling well and because his money had not arrived, he did not have enough to purchase his medicines,” he said.

    According to relatives and friends, the path that pushed Silman from owning a successful small business to setting himself alight in protest on Saturday night is another example of how the social welfare support network in this country fails those most in need.

    “He was born in Israel, he served in the army for seven years and after that did many years of reserve duty.

    He never bothered anyone, yet the state took everything from him – his business, his home – and in the end, no one was willing to help him,” said Elul.

    He described how a small debt to the NII, which Silman claimed was an error, just seemed to grow and grow.

    When the debt became so large that Silman could not pay it, the state repossessed one of his delivery trucks and his entire business fell apart.

    Elul said that Silman paid a lawyer thousands of shekels in order to sue the NII for loss of income but was unsuccessful. Finally, the debts grew so high that Silman turned to his mother for help, who signed off on a loan using her home. However, a few years later, when Silman’s mother passed away, the state repossessed his mother’s Bat Yam home as well.

    “All those things had an effect on him physically and emotionally,” said Elul, describing how his brother-inlaw moved to Haifa last May after a friend arranged for him to live in a free apartment. However, after suffering a series of strokes, he was unable to earn a living.

    “I met Moshe last summer during the social justice protests,” recalled Yael Levanon, spokeswoman for the social justice movement in Haifa.

    “He used to come to our tent because we had food there and he was hungry, but unlike other people in need, he used to stay with us after eating and join in the protests.”

    Levanon said that despite Silman being “bitter about how life had cheated him, he was still proud and refused to lose his self-respect.”

    She blamed the shortcomings of the social welfare system for not being able to provide a man, someone with serious disabilities and impossible financial troubles, with the support he needed to live decently.

    “The social network was just not there to catch him,” said Levanon. “What he did [on Saturday] was a rational choice given his circumstances.”

    A spokesman for the Haifa Municipality said Sunday that its social welfare department had been involved in trying to help Silman both with his rehabilitation back into the workforce and in his fight to gain public housing and more support from the NII.

    However, said the spokesman, Silman had often turned down the help being offered.
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    This is terrible. Not only terrible but it's a disgrace. A country like Israel should not allow such things to happen. It should look after it's needy citizens.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Sad news from Israel. Alav haShalom.

    Moshe Silman, the man who was critically wounded when he set himself on fire last week at a social justice protest in Tel Aviv, succumbed to his wounds Friday. He was being treated at Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer for burns over the majority of his body...
    source: http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Ar...aspx?id=278308
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffo View Post
    This is terrible. Not only terrible but it's a disgrace. A country like Israel should not allow such things to happen. It should look after it's needy citizens.
    It's basically impossible for any country to provide completely free housing, food, healthcare, and spending cash to every single citizen.

    I don't want to sound uncaring, because this is definitely a big tragedy. But this man started a business. It failed due to his mismanagement and mental condition. His creditors went to court and won a judgement against him for non-payment of loans and equipment, and wound up taking back their equipment and also foreclosed on his house to pay off his business debt.

    Well, not every business succeeds, and the risks were known from the beginning. But it's not the country's fault. It's his. Maybe instead of hanging around cursing the government, he would have just gotten a job like most people? Not to oversimplify, but that's what the vast majority of people whose businesses close tend to do. They don't set themselves on fire. They move on to the next job.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Quote Originally Posted by NewsGuy View Post
    It's basically impossible for any country to provide completely free housing, food, healthcare, and spending cash to every single citizen.

    I don't want to sound uncaring, because this is definitely a big tragedy. But this man started a business. It failed due to his mismanagement and mental condition. His creditors went to court and won a judgement against him for non-payment of loans and equipment, and wound up taking back their equipment and also foreclosed on his house to pay off his business debt.

    Well, not every business succeeds, and the risks were known from the beginning. But it's not the country's fault. It's his. Maybe instead of hanging around cursing the government, he would have just gotten a job like most people? Not to oversimplify, but that's what the vast majority of people whose businesses close tend to do. They don't set themselves on fire. They move on to the next job.
    I wasn't really in blame mode although I can see how it might appear that way. I guess I was just lamenting this tragedy. I can actually see how someone might be so distraught by their financial failure that they would resort to taking their own life rather than literally end up on the street. It's not a matter of whose fault it is, we all make mistakes.

    All I was saying is that a country such as Israel should have some sort of safety net to stop such a situation. I know it's easy for someone like me to say but it's much harder to do. But if we won't even say it, then it has less chance of happening.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Moshe Silman had his trucks (for his business) taken away due to a 5,000 shekel (about 1300 dollar) debt to Bituah Leumi that was a mistake. Before this poor man could appeal the debt, it snowballed out of control and the domino effect was that he lost EVERYTHING.

    I can vouch for Bituach Leumi pulling this cr*p on people all the time. One time they claimed that I didn't work all of 2004 and luckily I had saved all my salary sheets, so I was able to fax them and prove them wrong. However, before I could blink an eye, they withheld my child allowance. Only after some beaurocracy did they reinstate my child allowance and back pay for the amount withheld.

    Lucky for me, 1) these child allowances didn't make or break me 2) I had saved my salary sheets and 3) they didn't do something more drastic like freeze my bank account.

    Unfortunately, too often in this country, one is guilty until proven innocent and many, many people/families end up losing everything due to an "innocent" mistake just like with Moshe Silman.

    I am sorry to hear of his passing and my condolences to his family.
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

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    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
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    Disabled man sets himself on fire

    Another man lit himself on fire.

    A disabled man in his 50s set himself on fire Sunday at a bus stop in Yahud, in central Israel.

    He was rushed to the Chaim Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer in serious condition. Medical sources said he was suffering from burns over more than 80% of his body.
    source: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...258788,00.html
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

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    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    This is crazy. I can't even keep up with all the distressing news over the last week:-(
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

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    Senior Member JerichoMissile's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Quote Originally Posted by NewsGuy View Post
    It's basically impossible for any country to provide completely free housing, food, healthcare, and spending cash to every single citizen.

    I don't want to sound uncaring, because this is definitely a big tragedy. But this man started a business. It failed due to his mismanagement and mental condition. His creditors went to court and won a judgement against him for non-payment of loans and equipment, and wound up taking back their equipment and also foreclosed on his house to pay off his business debt.

    Well, not every business succeeds, and the risks were known from the beginning. But it's not the country's fault. It's his. Maybe instead of hanging around cursing the government, he would have just gotten a job like most people? Not to oversimplify, but that's what the vast majority of people whose businesses close tend to do. They don't set themselves on fire. They move on to the next job.

    I have to agree, just like most homeless alcoholics, its their own fault that their wives left them, that they spent all their savings on booze and drugs, and ended up homeless,

    very rarely is it someone elses fault someone becomes homeless, unless its like some woman who is being bashed by her boyfriend, and he kicks her out, thats another story,
    even than, you go to a womans shelter, you dont commit suicide.

    You know what this israeli guy who couldnt find work should have done, he should have gone to gaza, openly as a jew, and said i will work as someones cleaner/street sweeper.

    Im 99% sure they wouldnt kill him, most gazans would love to see a jew sweeping the streets or being their cleaner, im serious.
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time"
    Abraham Lincoln

    God laughs at the judgment of the wicked
    Psalms 37:13

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    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    JerichoMissle,

    I have to VEHEMENTLY disagree with your last post. I don't know how it is in Australia, but in America and Israel, there are too many good, hardworking people becoming homeless through no fault of their own. Either they are working hard and not making ends meet enough to meet BASIC expenses (due to inflation and a stagnant salary) or they have worked hard for MANY years at a job and get let go just like that.

    This can happen to ANYBODY. This is a SERIOUS problem and needs to be nipped in the bud EVERYWHERE. However (at the risk of sounding like our 972 buddies), I hold Israel to higher standards. Taking somebody's basic working tools away (like Moshe Silman's trucks) is against the Torah BTW. You all realize that right?
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

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    Senior Member JerichoMissile's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    JerichoMissle,

    I have to VEHEMENTLY disagree with your last post. I don't know how it is in Australia, but in America and Israel, there are too many good, hardworking people becoming homeless through no fault of their own. Either they are working hard and not making ends meet enough to meet BASIC expenses (due to inflation and a stagnant salary) or they have worked hard for MANY years at a job and get let go just like that.

    This can happen to ANYBODY. This is a SERIOUS problem and needs to be nipped in the bud EVERYWHERE. However (at the risk of sounding like our 972 buddies), I hold Israel to higher standards. Taking somebody's basic working tools away (like Moshe Silman's trucks) is against the Torah BTW. You all realize that right?
    yes in australia, it is different, EVERYONE who actually wants to work, has the opportunity, sure there are people who would like to work more hours, and cant get them
    but in australia 90% of unemployed are basically lazy dole bludgers, and maybe 10% of the unemployed did absolutely nothing to deserve it, as in they arnt alcoholics,
    they arnt lazy, they arnt mentally ill, but they lost their job because the company they worked for went broke etc....

    Ill tell you a little something because you as a jew will understand, recently my mom told me, my great-grandparents and their relations who were killed in the holocaust, alyways
    wanted to come to australia, not america, not canada, not the uk, but australia, unfortunately they never made it, so it was up to my grandfather, who was a buchenwald
    survivor to come to australia, so in some small way, im living the dream of my great-grandparents, who are listed in yad vashem by the way.
    "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time"
    Abraham Lincoln

    God laughs at the judgment of the wicked
    Psalms 37:13

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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    You really can't compare Australia and Israel. Israel has a decent economy given its historic circumstances and the fact that it's a relatively young country. There's certainly a lot to be proud of (but still, a LOT of room for improvement). But Australia is, pardon the bluntness, filthy rich. Australians don't even realise how good they have it here because so many have never lived anywhere else and never experienced real hardship. This country hasn't had a recession in two decades, unemployment is at historic lows, house prices are at historic highs, mineral resource prices are at historic highs, etc. If you're willing to work hard here, you will make a decent living. In Israel, you can work your ass off and still barely have enough money to pay your bills at the end of the month. When I was in high school and I worked as a checkout person in a supermarket, I earned $12 an hour. That's about 50 sheqel per hour. In Israel, fully grown people doing the same work get paid about 1/4 of that. It's more or less the same ratio throughout the economy. That's why Israel is facing such a major brain drain.

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    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    I know a childhood friend (Jewish) who "made aliyah" to Australia MANY years ago. He works for Cisco and has NO desire to leave Australia (well, except to travel, which he does lots of). I wonder why

    PS In all fairness, Curly, the minimum wage in Israel now is about 23 shekels per hour, so the checkout people here are making about 1/2 what they do in Australia. Otherwise, your post illustrates the situation quiet accurately.
    "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it." - RaMBaM (Maimonides), Guide For The Perplexed

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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Quote Originally Posted by Aliyah1995 View Post
    I know a childhood friend (Jewish) who "made aliyah" to Australia MANY years ago. He works for Cisco and has NO desire to leave Australia (well, except to travel, which he does lots of). I wonder why

    PS In all fairness, Curly, the minimum wage in Israel now is about 23 shekels per hour, so the checkout people here are making about 1/2 what they do in Australia. Otherwise, your post illustrates the situation quiet accurately.
    Oh, $12 an hour is not minimum wage. When you're a child you get paid under the minimum wage. Minimum wage here is now around $16 I believe, so around 65 shekels.

    To tell the other side of your story - I know an Australian lawyer who moved to Israel. He now makes the same salary he made in Australia - but in shekels instead of dollars :P (i.e. he took a 75% pay-cut). Still, he's religious and has no plans to leave as far as I know...

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    Re: Man Set's Himself On Fire During Social Protest

    Also the minimum wage doesn't tell the whole story. Israel has ridiculously high tax levels - not necessarily direct taxation but very high VAT, and high indirect taxes.

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