U.S. involvement in mideast crisis

[aid]

Oh Takeo,

I see you've become a pacifist? A follower of Ghandi?

And what happened to your Communist convictions? Since when have Communists become pacifists?

Have you not recommended just the other day that Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers instead of civilians? Is this Ghandi-like?

You are in favor of war. And war is war. If you insist that Arabs attack Jewish soldiers, you must allow Jewish soldiers defend themselves and kill Arab soliers/terrorists. La guerre est comme la guerre. N'est-ce pas?

THis is the problem with the Commissars. They will say and do whatever is profitable to them. Yesterday they were militarists, today they are Ghandians and Tolstovians, and tomorrow they will be Saddamians and Stalinists again. Marxism-Leninism does not recognize morality. Moral is that which serves their interests. It's that simple. Commissars have no shame.

So by now the ME situation looks stark clear. It is who is going to survive - who is going to live and who is is going to die.

In Russian Leninst language it is quite simple: Kto kogo?

Who prevails?

You Takeo are for killing Jews.

I am for living Jews.

You are for war.

I am for peace.

[takeo]

i have not become a follower of Ghandi nor a pacifist, but someone told me i should... while he himself predicts violence and revenge.


"Have you not recommended just the other day that Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers instead of civilians?
You are in favor of war. And war is war. If you insist that Arabs attack Jewish soldiers, you must allow Jewish soldiers defend themselves and kill Arab soliers/terrorists. La guerre est comme la guerre. N'est-ce pas? "

certainement pas, because those Israeli soldiers don't belong there, they are an occupiing force, remember? one have the right to shoot at an occupiing force.

"THis is the problem with the Commissars. They will say and do whatever is profitable to them. Yesterday they were militarists, today they are Ghandians and Tolstovians, and tomorrow they will be Saddamians and Stalinists again. Marxism-Leninism does not recognize morality. Moral is that which serves their interests. It's that simple. Commissars have no shame. "

they have a gaol, justice and equality for human kind, and indeed sometimes they use strange methods to reach that goal. This is exactly how zionists behave for reaching their goal, one time they are pacifists, the other time they preech war, one time they are for international laws(when it's in their interests) the other time they completely ignore them, ...

"So by now the ME situation looks stark clear. It is who is going to survive - who is going to live and who is is going to die. "

You seem to be quite happy about this...

"You Takeo are for killing Jews. "

this statement is so ridiculoous that i won't even bother answering it.

"I am for living Jews. "

no, you're not, otherwise you would accept compromises and want peace with the Palestinians.
you are for killing palestinians.

"You are for war.
I am for peace.
"
that was not the opinion of all the people i know who read this forum (americans, frensh, Jews and Arabs alike), in fact you say that meretz, the only peace-loving party in Israel, is a traitors-party, that says enough...
the only peace you will accept is one without palestinians...

[takeo]

just look how you will react to the peace-plan i posted...
you prefere the military solution...

[aid]

they are an occupiing force, remember? one have the right to shoot at an occupiing force.

I remeber everything, even what you want to forget.

1. Until there is a peace settlement, the borders are not fixed. This means that there is no occupying force because how do you know whether this force is located on ots territory or a different state. In this particualr case especially since on the territory between the Jordan river and see exists only one state - Israel. So I don't know what you are talking about.

2. Even if it were an occupying force, what do you mean by the "right" to shoot at it? Did Germans have the right to shoot at the occupying force of the US, GB, France, USSR? The first three countries are still in effect occupying Germany. Can you tell me what the French troops are doing in Germany? Do the Japanese have the right to shoot at the US troops on the Okinawa?

As the troops of the Allies Israeli troops are where they are now as a result of defensive war - resistance - against Arab aggression. Israeli troops are there to safeguard Israel' security and existence. I don't know what you are referring to as the right to shoot at the Jewish soldiers.

3. But if, as you insist, one has the right to shoot at you, you have the right to defend yourself. The right to self-defense is absolute. If the enemies of Israel have the right to shoot at her military force, surely the IDF has the right to shoot in defense, and destroy the enemy. Will you deny that? Or you want all the shooting be in one direction only? But in that case it is not war anymore, but more like Baby Yar. And this is not going to work, Takeo, even for your beautiful eyes of a Communist Commissar.

4. How can you deny that you are for war, that you are a warmonger if you call for shooting "at an occupiing force". Whether you consider it justified or not, it is obvious that shooting is not peace. Shooting is war, Takeo, it ain't peace, unless you use newspeak: War is Peace and Peace is War, and KGB is Love. You are calling for war, and you are on the side of the exterminators of the Jewish people in this war. There is no way out of this, Takeo.

[raven]

As for Ghandi: this wasnt as reported. It went like this--" Do it the so called non-violent way with me..OR...right behind me there are a million violent people that I (what a terrible shame) cant control." Blackmail. This wasnt a real non violent thing at all. And it wont be if the Pals try to mimic this either. It will be set up the same way.

As for what is about to happen in the US, IF the US doesnt stop what is happening now with Islamic Americans, in about 25 years you will see yet another group of Islamists declare their own State within the US. Right now peoples from the ME are congegating in their own areas in several states, so much so, that the American Officials of these areas are unable and frieghtened to inforce American Rules and Law. This is happening in Northern Va. I hear it is happening in NJ and Texas and Calif. Separate housing, separate schooling, under the guize of Religion, exclusive use of their own as Attornies and Physicians etc. Business with only their own and mostly in CASH. Almost a separate Culture developing here. ( Not just the first generation) A Culture that does NOT support most American Values. This does not bode well long term for America.

There is a pattern of behavior. Look at India, Phillipines, Africa, East Timor, Eastern Europe, China, Russia. All are worried about Separatist Islamic Movements in their own Countries. Think no one noticed?

[takeo]

"1. Until there is a peace settlement, the borders are not fixed. This means that there is no occupying force because how do you know whether this force is located on ots territory or a different state. In this particualr case especially since on the territory between the Jordan river and see exists only one state - Israel. So I don't know what you are talking about. "

The UN-declarations stated that all parts were israeli military is present that didn't belong to Israel before 1967 still don't belong to Israel and are thus occupied territories. Besides, by not giving the people living there the right to israeli citizenship it means that even israeli constitution considers this territories not be a part of israel as well.



"2. Even if it were an occupying force, what do you mean by the "right" to shoot at it? Did Germans have the right to shoot at the occupying force of the US, GB, France, USSR? The first three countries are still in effect occupying Germany. Can you tell me what the French troops are doing in Germany? Do the Japanese have the right to shoot at the US troops on the Okinawa? "

The germans were indeed an occupied country, untill the formation of of the two independant germanies and thus Germans had the right to resist them (they did untill Hitler resigned). but germany clearly started the war, whereas Israel started the 1967 war. after independance of Germany and Japan foreign troops had to be legitimised by the governments of those countries, if they decide one day they have to leave than they have to leave, and also even today they have to act according to the laws of germany and Japan. No similarity with palestine at all.

"As the troops of the Allies Israeli troops are where they are now as a result of defensive war - resistance - against Arab aggression. Israeli troops are there to safeguard Israel' security and existence. I don't know what you are referring to as the right to shoot at the Jewish soldiers. "

Israel started the 1967 war and refused to rethreat, that is a contiuating war-declaration to the security and existance of the Palestinian people ... the presence of Israeli troops on palestinian soil is as acceptable as the presence of iraqi troops in Kouweit. Of course people have the right to fight them.

"3. But if, as you insist, one has the right to shoot at you, you have the right to defend yourself. The right to self-defense is absolute. If the enemies of Israel have the right to shoot at her military force, surely the IDF has the right to shoot in defense, and destroy the enemy. Will you deny that? Or you want all the shooting be in one direction only? But in that case it is not war anymore, but more like Baby Yar. And this is not going to work, Takeo, even for your beautiful eyes of a Communist Commissar. "

they have the right to defend themselves against the people who attacked themselves (by the way that's why Serbia was bombed, only because they fought back at rebels who attacked them in a recognised part of Serbia), but not against unarmed civilians, not against demonstrators not armed with guns, not the right to displace populations and import your own population, etc.

"4. How can you deny that you are for war, that you are a warmonger if you call for shooting "at an occupiing force". Whether you consider it justified or not, it is obvious that shooting is not peace. Shooting is war, Takeo, it ain't peace, unless you use newspeak: War is Peace and Peace is War, and KGB is Love. You are calling for war, and you are on the side of the exterminators of the Jewish people in this war. There is no way out of this, Takeo. "

I am for peace, but as long as israeli forces don't want to leave voluntarily the occupied territories or negotiate their withrawel, than the palestinians have the right to and should resist to their presence, unless troops make a white flag and disappear into Israel, in that case it would be illegal to shoot at them. I am for peace but only a just peace, not a peace were israel receives peace but doesn't comply to international and palestinian demands and withdraw its troops. One can't have it all!!!
the same now in Libanon, killing Israeli soldiers at the border now is illegal, it was not when israel occupied Libanon.



"As for Ghandi: this wasnt as reported. It went like this--" Do it the so called non-violent way with me..OR...right behind me there are a million violent people that I (what a terrible shame) cant control." Blackmail. This wasnt a real non violent thing at all. And it wont be if the Pals try to mimic this either. It will be set up the same way. "

So, you are against Ghandi as well... and you recognise that any occupied people, even Ghandi's should have a treath to violence to achieve liberation.

"As for what is about to happen in the US, IF the US doesnt stop what is happening now with Islamic Americans, in about 25 years you will see yet another group of Islamists declare their own State within the US. Right now peoples from the ME are congegating in their own areas in several states, so much so, that the American Officials of these areas are unable and frieghtened to inforce American Rules and Law. This is happening in Northern Va. I hear it is happening in NJ and Texas and Calif. Separate housing, separate schooling, under the guize of Religion, exclusive use of their own as Attornies and Physicians etc. Business with only their own and mostly in CASH. Almost a separate Culture developing here. ( Not just the first generation) A Culture that does NOT support most American Values. This does not bode well long term for America. "

blabla, you are talking as a member of the KKK in the 50's about the negro's and the Jews. this is BS.

"There is a pattern of behavior. Look at India, Phillipines, Africa, East Timor, Eastern Europe, China, Russia. All are worried about Separatist Islamic Movements in their own Countries. Think no one noticed?"

There are not only separatist Islamic movements...
what about Basque separatists, corsican, northern ireland, eastern Timor (situation quite similar to palestine), many christian resistance movements in africa, indian groups in latin america, the fight in moldova between Christian Russians and moldavians, the war in yougo between Serbs and Croats, in china not only islamic uygurs but as well budist mongols and tibetans, in india and sri lanka tamil resistance, etc. etc.

[raven]

The serious ongoing problem in many countries are separatist movements by Islamists in those very same countries. Very few are worried about the Basques except Spain. Thats rediculous.

In the US, this Islam is "under the radar" now and know what NOT to say in public. But they are stucturing their society PAST the first generation to live apart, to school their children apart, and to deal mostly with each other.

This is NOT what America is about. The whole idea is Freedom and Democracy but --out of many cultures--ONE. Thats what makes this place different from all other places. And it has worked--until recently.

If you dont think that people are looking at the situation and NOT liking this at all, you are wrong. You come from a different culture. Thank G-d Im from here and NOT where you come from. The wine is nice, the food is great, the city and towns are charming. Too bad the people are so nasty. No one...and I mean NO ONE likes them.

[L@mplighterM]

Give up on the Arab he isn't Jewish.

[Negev]

Lamp,

You think that there aren't plenty of Jews who think like him that Israel is a terrible state and that sharon is a war criminal and that the Palis are a pitiful oppressed people?

Just read haaretz. Even many israelis think like him. we know they're a bunch of leftists but a lot of people think those things. I say to them 'go live with your arab friends and let's see how long you'll last.'

Anyway what's the difference if takeo's Jewish or not?

[raven]

L@mp: I would but I have a really low tolorence for BS and Fantasy history. I also have a low tolorence for Bigotry the old hatreds discuised as mere Nationalism. Every once in a while I need to SAY something about it to people who think they are going to get away with the same old same old.

[takeo]

Lomplighter, I guess there should exist some medical or psychiatric treatment for this worse case of "arabafobia" you have currently. It isn't racism anymore, it is sick. I'm not Arab, even your extremist friend Aid doesn't think so.

"The serious ongoing problem in many countries are separatist movements by Islamists in those very same countries. Very few are worried about the Basques except Spain. Thats rediculous. "

Well, few people outside Israel are really concerned about Hamas and Hesbollah as well as they never committed suicide attacks outside Israel/occupied territories...Spanish are as much concerned about eta as israel is about Hamas as GB was about the IRA as the Mexicans are about the zapatistas, etc.
separatism and/or freedom fighting/guerilla/terrorism are a serious treat to any country facing it, if it's Islamic or not doesn't really matter. Of course in some countries guerilla/terrorism is more acceptable than in others(if their are now democratic means and if their people is being oppressed). Don't forget that the founders of Israel (Ben Goerion) were terrorists themselves.

"In the US, this Islam is "under the radar" now and know what NOT to say in public. But they are stucturing their society PAST the first generation to live apart, to school their children apart, and to deal mostly with each other.
This is NOT what America is about. The whole idea is Freedom and Democracy but --out of many cultures--ONE. Thats what makes this place different from all other places. And it has worked--until recently. "

If you react like that you can say that you don't belong to America because you have preserved your Jewish identity. Many cultures in the US have their own communities, for example the Asians and the Hispanics. Some Jews also send their children to Israel, so you can say as well that this is an attempt not to integrate in US-society. This is racist talk, it is always remarkable how sensible you are about complaints about Jews in any country (the word anti-semitism is used very frequently and most of the times it is exaggerated, someone complaining about Israeli policy is already labelled an anti-semite) but how easily you make racist remarks to other etnic groups living in the same country.


"If you dont think that people are looking at the situation and NOT liking this at all, you are wrong. You come from a different culture. Thank G-d Im from here and NOT where you come from. The wine is nice, the food is great, the city and towns are charming. Too bad the people are so nasty. No one...and I mean NO ONE likes them."

Really noone, how come that so many Americans come to visit France and are obsessed by Frensh culture and people?
without France the US wouldn't even exist.
in Europe, few people really like the US-citizens or government, only their products as film, mc. donalds, etc.
Thank God I live in a democratic, wealthy and multi-cultural country where money (as in the US) or your etnic origin (as in Israel) doesn't dominate all society including politics.

[L@mplighterM]

Negrev you're right it dosen't make any difference what he is. That's a good point.

My wife thinks he's a jew but my son and I don't.

Maybe somewhere along the line he picked up a bum gene or his mother dropped him when he was a baby.

You're right people like that should live among the Arabs that's most likely the best place for them. All they have to do is say they love the Arabs and everything will be ok.

[L@mplighterM]

Thought I'd pass this along:

Islamic Terror: The Revised Koran

Posted October 29, 2001

By Debra Emmes

<http://www.jdl.org/images/koran.gif> How would an Arab or Muslim feel if the Koran was revised and had the words Jews and Christians removed and in their place the words Arabs and Muslims inserted? Allow me to quote from the Revised Edition of the Koran, which in part would read thusly:

"O believers, make war on the Arabs and Muslims who dwell around you. Let them find firmness in you." (Surah 9, Section 123)

"Fight those Arabs and Muslims who believe not in the God of Jacob even if they be People of the Book until they agree to pay the tribute in recognition of their submissive state." (Surah 9, Section 29)

"You will be called to fight a mighty nation of Arabs and Muslims; fight them until they embrace the God of Jacob." (Surah 48, Section 16)

"Then fight and slay the Arabs and Muslims wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war)." (Surah 9, Section 5)

"Those who believe fight in the cause of the God of Jacob; And those who reject the true faith of the God of Jacob fight in the cause of Evil; So fight ye against the Arabs and Muslims, those Friends of Satan ...." (Surah 4, Section 10, Chapter 76)

"Take not the Arabs and Muslims as friends or protectors." (Surah 5, Section 8, Chapter 51)

"The Arabs and Muslims perverted the things they learned in the Covenant of the God of Jacob." (Surah 3, Section 19, Chapter 187)

"The God of Jacob has turned his face from Arabs and Muslims, and Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists should do the same." (Surah 4, Section 7, Chapter 47)

For the last several weeks I have heard all the Arab and Muslim advocacy groups claim how their constituents are among the best Americans. If that is the case, why then do they say nothing about the Koran's advocacy of violence against Jews and Christians? The fact is some Arab Muslims are "true believers" of Islam, and are following the dictates of their religion. Perhaps now is the time for Islamic clerics in America to stop spreading hatred and calls for war against Jews and Christians. Edit the Koran and make amends with the Jews and Christians.

<http://www.jdl.org/images/backtojdl.jpg>

[Negev]

The kuran is definitely not some pacifist book. Neither is the Torah.

But there are some good muslims and some extremist terrorist ones. Better to concentrate on fighting the terrorists and not on muslims as a whole otherwise we stoop to their level. lower than a slimy bin laden worm under a rock.

[takeo]

Incredible, i can't believe my eyes, did i just read something reasonable, some common sence in the last post of Negev???
Yeah Torah or Qoran, for me it's pretty much the same if I read it, as I'm not religious, both quite intolerant for other religions.
Interesting to know that I'm the object of your family-conversations Lomplighter.


"You think that there aren't plenty of Jews who think like him that Israel is a terrible state and that sharon is a war criminal and that the Palis are a pitiful oppressed people?
Just read haaretz. Even many israelis think like him. we know they're a bunch of leftists but a lot of people think those things.
Anyway what's the difference if takeo's Jewish or not?"

That's right

"I say to them 'go live with your arab friends and let's see how long you'll last.' "

Why should I? I live among Arabs here and have no problem with most of them, some are Palestinian(in both Arabs and Jews there are good and bad people, as everywhere, it may sound like a cliché but i's reality). But that is not the point. The point is that Arabs are also people and have the same rights as Jews and should be treated as such. If you ignore their rights, one shouldn't be surprised of the consequences, this is not only true for Arabs, but everywhere in the world. This case is more special and hot news because both Israel and the Palestinians have powerfull friends.
You people have probably never spoken to an Arab before in your life and have certainly not visited Palestinian refugee camps but still you think you know all about them.