Does Islam Allow Suicide Bombing?

[abu afak]

Just got this Link and story from an Arab Poster on an Arab Message board:

http://www.geocities.com/sadiqurnet/...martyrdom.html

""....Synopsis

We have arrived at the conclusion that martyrdom operations are permissible, and in fact the Mujahid who is killed in them is better than one who is killed fighting in the ranks, for there are gradations even among martyrs, corresponding to their role, action effort and risk undertaken. Then, we explained how martyrdom operations are the least costly to the Mujahideen and most detrimental to the enemy. We have heard, as you must have, that most scholars today permit such operations; at least 30 Fatawa have been issued to this effect. We explained how this issue is derived from the issue of plunging single-handedly into the enemy ranks; something which is praiseworthy by the agreement of jurists. We then further stated that we preferred the view that such an action is permissible even if martyrdom is the only goal, although it is certainly not the optimal practice. Martyrdom operations should not be carried out unless certain conditions are met:

1. One's intention is sincere and pure - to raise the Word of Allah.
2. One is reasonably sure that the desired effect cannot be achieved by any other means which would guarantee preservation of his life.
3. One is reasonably sure that loss will be inflicted on the enemy, or they will be frightened, or the Muslims will be emboldened.
4. One should consult with war strategy experts, and especially with the amber of war, for otherwise he may upset plan and alert the enemy to their presence.

If the first condition is absent, the deed is worthless, but if it is satisfied while some others are lacking, then it is not the best thing, but this does not necessarily mean the Mujahid is not shaheed.

We also explained how causing a death carries the same verdict as actual killing. Hence one who plunges without armour into the enemy ranks, being certain of death, just like one who engages in a martyrdom operation, is effectively causing his own death, but they are praiseworthy because of the circumstances and intention, and hence are not considered to have committed suicide. We also clarified that [according to the majority] the identity of the killer does not have an effect on whether the Mujahid will be considered shaheed. This dispels the wavering arising from the fact that the Mujahid is taking his own life. Thus, such operations could take on any of the five Shar`i verdicts depending on intention and circumstances. Finally, we clarified that taking one's own life is not always blameworthy; rather it is contingent on the motives behind it. So, we conclude that one who kills himself because of his strong faith and out of love for Allah and the Prophet, and in the interests of the religion, is praiseworthy.....""

ex from http://www.geocities.com/sadiqurnet/...martyrdom.html

[andak01]

Originally posted by abu afak
Thus, such operations could take on any of the five Shar`i verdicts depending on intention and circumstances.

Of course it depends on intention and circumstances! Is he throwing himself on a grenade in order to save his comrades- something that would be heroic if anyone other than a Muslim did it, or is he walking into a room of schoolchildren to blow himself up. The only reason this subject comes up at all is because Islam is already so against suicide, that there must be an extraordinary set of circumstances even to allow it in battle. I remember a Longfellow poem about an ancient hero defending a bridge with suicide warfare. Better yet is the Charge of the Light Brigade when the British charging into machine gun fire on horseback elicits feelings of heroism and nationalistic pride.

Could writings like this be used as propaganda to convince Muslims to become suicide bombers? Perhaps. Could it be held up as a reason for extermination of Muslims? You tell me Abu. Although appearently you spend your day searching for hate inciteing articles, I do not spend my own strapping bombs to children. I am sure you know more about the Dar Al Harb and every other Islamic subject that deals with violence than I do. These things are not core to our belief system. In fact, they are obscure. We don't ask to be martyrs 17 times a day (the number of Ruku'ah or prayer cycles [more than one per each of our 5 pray times]), we ask for God's help to lead us on the righteous path. We don't profess our faith at the end of a sword, we make a proclamation of monotheism. If YOU want to buy into a vision of Islam that is exactly as distorted as that of the hijackers and suicide bombers, that's your business. Don't spread that hatred to others. You are playing exactly the game of alienation that Bin Laden wants you to.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01
We don't profess our faith at the end of a sword, we make a proclamation of monotheism. If YOU want to buy into a vision of Islam that is exactly as distorted as that of the hijackers and suicide bombers, that's your business. Don't spread that hatred to others. You are playing exactly the game of alienation that Bin Laden wants you to.

andak I appreciate your good and peaceful intentions.

But, as a Muslim, perhaps you can tell me why all these people are dying by the Hand of Muslims And in the Name of Allah. Briefly, Millions are dead from North Africa to Asia. .. Arab countries are filled with hate (like the 'Protocols' series) and Intolerance for other religions. ...

It's not just 19 Hijackers, or Bali, or, Suicide bombers in Isreal, or Russian Theaters, or Tunisian synagogue Bombings, Or Kashmir beheadings, Or Abu Sayyef in the Phillipines, etc. etc etc (and that would be plenty ).. It's Indonesia and it's condoning for years of Lasker Jihad and violence against Christians and Chinese minorities, and 2 million dead in the Sudan, the Persecution and Cleansing of the Kurds by several Arab countries, Osama's Popularity in the Arab world (75% in Kuwait I've documented), Nigeria, Egypt's persecution of the Copts, Saudis total intolerance of other religions and teaching and finiancing of Wahabism and Radicism in Madrassas all over, and on, and on, the list goes. But I think that's enough to make my point for now.

We aren't talking a few hot-heads here, we're talking a large part of the Islamic world and Systemic Discrimination and violence.

[andak01]

Originally posted by abu afak
andak I appreciate your good and peaceful intentions.

Is that why you call me a liar, fool, etc?

But, as a Muslim, perhaps you can tell me why all these people are dying by the Hand of Muslims And in the Name of Allah.

Because they live in an idealic vacuum where only Muslims do evil deads and every Muslim action is an action and not a reaction. All these victims are innocent and correct and all Muslims are the initial aggressors and wrong. There is no history and no politics and no other effects to be taken into account. No Muslims have ever been killed unjustly. Muslims, unlike other humans have no motives for anything they do in their lives other than religion. The only evil in the world is Islam, just as the only evil in Hitler's Germany was Judaeism. The solution to each problem is the same, total extermination.

Was that what you want me to say?

It's not just 19 Hijackers...

It's nice how you can make a monolith out of a hundred piles of stone. I won't humor you by making a litany of crimes against Muslims or a list of Crimes committed by Christians. I don't believe that every Muslim or every Christian in every part of the world is made of the same cloth. There are Shiites, Sufis, Ismaelis, Deobandis, et cetera. Each of these groups is further divided by local customs.

Once again I say, if you succeed in inciting more non-Muslims to hate Islam, if you succeed in alienating and angering Muslims, how have you furthered the cause of peace? That is exactly the sort of thing Osama wants to happen. The more Muslims are alienated from the west, the more are prey for his own sick ideologies.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by andak01
Of course it depends on intention and circumstances! Is he throwing himself on a grenade in order to save his comrades- something that would be heroic if anyone other than a Muslim did it, or is he walking into a room of schoolchildren to blow himself up.

Hmmm I think things are generally simpler than they look. The phrase 'martyrdom operations' is a cue that means what you generally accept it to mean. It does not imply a mother pushing her child out of the way of a car and being killed herself. It does not imply what we might basically call "selfless love or altruistic heroism." Certainly you can see that. It means what it means which is paramilitary terrorist operations against indiscriminate targets. Why else do you never see professionally trained battle hardened soldiers committing these acts.

The only reason this subject comes up at all is because Islam is already so against suicide, that there must be an extraordinary set of circumstances even to allow it in battle.

No its purposes are:

Recruiting tool
Deflection of criticism
Example of solidarity
Case studies in 'posed' misery

Religious leaders are respondings to the direct question: "If/when I do this am I still a good muslim?"

I remember a Longfellow poem about an ancient hero defending a bridge with suicide warfare.

All cultures have have that hero mythology. The Spartans of Thermopylae comes to mind. Also the Song of Roland. Most of the Ring Cycle too involves death, suicide and redemption through self sacrifice.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by andak01

Was that what you want me to say?

No that's not what I want you say. Here's what I would say:

There is a vast collection of devlop/ing countries in the muslim world that do not have a separation between church and state - in the way that most non fundamentalist westerners have come to believe. Therefore both of those things distort each other and not in universally wonderful ways. Religion is made an arm of force, of the state and the State uses religious non rational non political justification for its acts that places them above discussion, above even thinking about them to some extent.

Mix into the flow the fact that many of these same states are politically tribal. That is, most political activity is done by and for a tiny group that either has always been in power or one that is only in power this week, next year. Either they are politically stable tyrannies or they are socially unstable anarchies.

Whatever one's personal love or distrust of democracy or republicanism as a mode of governance what most of them do is provide a modicum of political stability, at least to point where power transfers are accomplished w/o tanks in the streets, and, a modicum of social stability AT THE SAME TIME.

And that gap is what creates the supporting foundation of national governments that espouse oppression, violence, brutality, capriciousness.

The short answer used to be "I'm the king and God (fill in whaever name you want) told me."

Then it became "I am the King and God told YOU."

Then it became "I am his messenger and God told me to tell you."

Until it became the somewhat more subtle

"We can check on that and get back to you but we're fairly sure we can make a case that God would personally approve of the following acts. Please don't refer your complaints to us, we're not responsible for what you hold dear. Thank you this has been a public service bulletin."

That way social stability is bolstered at the same time that political power is preserved. All one need do is export their wrath on someone else. So in end, I don't agree with those who claim this is some kind of attribute of Islam. No the reality is that it's like chemistry - you mix a bunch of normally inert, innocuous or benign elements together and what normally doesn't bother suddenly goes BLAAAAAAAAAST.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01


Was that what you want me to say?

You don't have to answer every one of my posts, although I see you have a compulsion to do so, even when you don't really have a response.

"What do I want you to say"

You say what you want...

BUT, the first step for you and Islam (indeed, any problem) is to acknowledge it; Not excuse it away as you always try to do.

I'd like to see some kind of International Islamic Leadership emerge to change the Horrible direction/drift the religion is now on.

Does it need a total Reformation?

I leave that to Moslems...

In the mean time, the rest of the world has to defend itself, and I will continue to point that out.

That's what I do.. until people wake up .. or like you, need to learn to face it.

abu afak

[andak01]

Originally posted by abu afak
You don't have to answer every one of my posts, although I see you have a compulsion to do so, even when you don't really have a response.

It's just that I don't always have an article to post, and therefore I can't hide behind someone else's words. I end up responding directly to your borrowed professional rhetoric. I won't post the Islamic equivilent of your Christian hate posts, because the Islamic equivalent is also biased drivel. Oh sure you will find some truth there, but the spin will take your breath away. If you want to talk body counts, the US has got the rest of the world beat. How many countries can claim 130,000 killed in a couple of hours. Now that the final toll on WTC is in, it is clear that the hijackers were only slightly more deadly than the twenty or so special forces guys in Mogadishu. They did over 2,000 in one night.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01
It's just that I don't always have an article to post, and therefore I can't hide behind someone else's words. I end up responding directly to your borrowed professional rhetoric. I won't post the Islamic equivilent of your Christian hate posts, because the Islamic equivalent is also biased drivel. Oh sure you will find some truth there, but the spin will take your breath away. If you want to talk body counts, the US has got the rest of the world beat. How many countries can claim 130,000 killed in a couple of hours. Now that the final toll on WTC is in, it is clear that the hijackers were only slightly more deadly than the twenty or so special forces guys in Mogadishu. They did over 2,000 in one night.

I posted NO Link and hid behind nothing. My last two posts are the truth and not anyone's link.

You Still can't acknowledge the problem.

You are Still Rationalizing.

and still the compulsion to answer with nothing.

nothing

[unbiased]

No, Islam does not allow suicide bombing.

The Koran states "do not kill yourself".

It also states that women and children are not to be killed intentionally.

So to intentionally kill women and children by purposefully killing yourself is a sin against Islam on more than one front.

There is not even one case of a muslim committing suicide to kill others in the koran - never, it is a sin. To be killed while fighting is in the koran, but that is not suicide.
Anyone who tries to manipulate that and make that seem like suicide bombings are acceptable in Islam are just con-artists and sinners looking to recruit ignorant children and psychopaths to blow themselves up for an attempt at political gain.

Unbiased

Originally posted by abu afak
Just got this Link and story from and Arab Poster on an Arab Message board:

http://www.geocities.com/sadiqurnet/...martyrdom.html

""....Synopsis

We have arrived at the conclusion that martyrdom operations are permissible, and in fact the Mujahid who is killed in them is better than one who is killed fighting in the ranks, for there are gradations even among martyrs, corresponding to their role, action effort and risk undertaken. Then, we explained how martyrdom operations are the least costly to the Mujahideen and most detrimental to the enemy. We have heard, as you must have, that most scholars today permit such operations; at least 30 Fatawa have been issued to this effect. We explained how this issue is derived from the issue of plunging single-handedly into the enemy ranks; something which is praiseworthy by the agreement of jurists. We then further stated that we preferred the view that such an action is permissible even if martyrdom is the only goal, although it is certainly not the optimal practice. Martyrdom operations should not be carried out unless certain conditions are met:

1. One's intention is sincere and pure - to raise the Word of Allah.
2. One is reasonably sure that the desired effect cannot be achieved by any other means which would guarantee preservation of his life.
3. One is reasonably sure that loss will be inflicted on the enemy, or they will be frightened, or the Muslims will be emboldened.
4. One should consult with war strategy experts, and especially with the amber of war, for otherwise he may upset plan and alert the enemy to their presence.

If the first condition is absent, the deed is worthless, but if it is satisfied while some others are lacking, then it is not the best thing, but this does not necessarily mean the Mujahid is not shaheed.

We also explained how causing a death carries the same verdict as actual killing. Hence one who plunges without armour into the enemy ranks, being certain of death, just like one who engages in a martyrdom operation, is effectively causing his own death, but they are praiseworthy because of the circumstances and intention, and hence are not considered to have committed suicide. We also clarified that [according to the majority] the identity of the killer does not have an effect on whether the Mujahid will be considered shaheed. This dispels the wavering arising from the fact that the Mujahid is taking his own life. Thus, such operations could take on any of the five Shar`i verdicts depending on intention and circumstances. Finally, we clarified that taking one's own life is not always blameworthy; rather it is contingent on the motives behind it. So, we conclude that one who kills himself because of his strong faith and out of love for Allah and the Prophet, and in the interests of the religion, is praiseworthy.....""

ex from http://www.geocities.com/sadiqurnet/...martyrdom.html

[RedLine]

Grow Tired of this arguing so constantly, I quit this forum.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by unbiased
No, Islam does not allow suicide bombing.

The Koran states "do not kill yourself".

It also states that women and children are not to be killed intentionally.

So to intentionally kill women and children by purposefully killing yourself is a sin against Islam on more than one front.

There is not even one case of a muslim committing suicide to kill others in the koran - never, it is a sin. To be killed while fighting is in the koran, but that is not suicide.
Anyone who tries to manipulate that and make that seem like suicide bombings are acceptable in Islam are just con-artists and sinners looking to recruit ignorant children and psychopaths to blow themselves up for an attempt at political gain.

Unbiased

So .. The Majority of Palestinians who DO support Suicide bombing are 'Bad Muslims' . ...

And the explosives provided for these bombings by Iran are From 'Bad Muslims' ......

And the Telethons Held by the Saudis to pay these people is provided by 'Bad Muslims' (and not Just telethons but steady long term support). Sadam of course is a 'Bad Muslim'.. but he's a Palestinian and 'Arab street' Hero

And the Lack of Serious condemnation or Sanctions against them by any of the Arab World is because Alll Arabs are 'Bad Muslims'?

curious..... There seem to be so many 'Bad Muslims' ... Maybe THEY'RE RIGHT and you're wrong in your reading of the Koran and it's conditions that allow suicide/martyrdom.

[Mediocrates]

Of course the flip side would also have to be true. If someone in complete contradiction to their own firmly held beliefs advocates and supports suicide bombing then no amount of outcry and condemnation from religious leaders would change that.

[unbiased]

Abu afak,

I am not one of authority to judge if they are "bad muslims" or not.

All I know is that is what the koran says.

It is not up for me to decide if they are bad or not.

Would you say that the christian missionaries who murdered people who would not convert were "bad christians"?

If it were my decision I would say yes, they are "bad muslims" and "bad christians".

Unbiased

Originally posted by abu afak
So .. The Majority of Palestinians who DO support Suicide bombing are 'Bad Muslims' . ...

And the explosives provided for these bombings by Iraq are From 'Bad Muslims' ......

And the Telethons Held by the Saudis to pay these people is provided by 'Bad Muslims' (and not Just telethons but steady long term support). Sadam of course is a 'Bad Muslim'.. but he's a Palestinian and 'Arab street' Hero

And the Lack of Serious condemnation or Sanctions against them by any of the Arab World is because Alll Arabs are 'Bad Muslims'?

curious..... There seem to be so many 'Bad Muslims' ... Maybe THEY'RE RIGHT and you're wrong in your reading of the Koran and it's conditions that allow suicide/martyrdom.