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did Israel has real democracy .. ?
did arab Israeli cetizens enjoy the so called democracy .. ?
did the unjewish Israeli cetizins enjoy this democracy .. ?
I doubt that .. !
Well, you may doubt that, but if you look at the facts, then it is a different story.Originally posted by fair
did Israel has real democracy .. ?
did arab Israeli cetizens enjoy the so called democracy .. ?
did the unjewish Israeli cetizins enjoy this democracy .. ?
I doubt that .. !
Of course Israel is a democracy. Not only a democracy, but a liberal democracy at that.
Just becuase you disagree with the policies of the Israeli government, doesn't mean that it is not a democracy.
As for the Arabs living in Israel, they too enjoy that Israeli democracy.
Like any other Israeli citizens, Arabs are given:
- freedom of speech
- freedom to elect their own members of parliament
- government subsidies for education
- welfare payments for poor Arabs
- unemployment benefits
- subsidized health care
All this, at the expense of the Israeli tax payer.
And I would also remind you that these freedoms given to Arabs living in Israel are things that are not available to ANY Arabs living in their own corrupt Arab dictatorships.
As you know very well, when an Arab living in Egypt or Syria opens his/her mouth to criticise their corrupt government, their secret police kicks in their door in middle of the night and they "disappear" into an Arab jail, where all they will hear for the next many years is the screams of the tortured prisoners, at the hands of their own Arab brothers.
Still, Israeli Arabs are mostly ungrateful that they are living with more freedom in Israel than they would get in any other Arab country. And if they think that it would be better there, then like you say in Arabic "tfadal", they are welcome to go elsewhere.
If Israel is really a democracy, than all this facilities and equal rights for minorities are just natural, and nobody needs to be "gratefull". unfortunately this facilities exist mostly on paper only and Israeli Palestinians are still being discriminated and in the parliament there is a "cordon sanitaire" against their parties.
Even much worse is that millions of palestinians who live in what is considered Israel (by Israeli themselves only) have no rights at all, for 35 years already.
besides in a real democracy religious people don't get all kinds of legal advantages as in Israel, demonstraters are not being shot at and torture is illegal. A real democracy would also subscribe the un-resolutions and the Geneva-conventions.
dear NewsGuy
realy I'am admired
how a country based on religion and army would be a democracy
how a country known as .. the army state of Israel
and u are determined that it's democracy
regard's
1. First of all "if" doesn't apply here. When there is a multi-party election system with fair election process, then a country is considered a democracy. Secondly, I think that the Arabs living in Israel should, indeed, be grateful to the Israeli taxpayer who provides the Arabs with all these social benefits, especially in light of their open support of countries that are at war with Israel.Originally posted by takeo
1. If Israel is really a democracy, than all this facilities and equal rights for minorities are just natural, and nobody needs to be "gratefull".
2. unfortunately this facilities exist mostly on paper only and Israeli Palestinians are still being discriminated and in the parliament there is a "cordon sanitaire" against their parties.
3. Even much worse is that millions of palestinians who live in what is considered Israel (by Israeli themselves only) have no rights at all, for 35 years already.
2. On paper?? Please name even one single item that I listed that is not, in fact, granted to Arabs living in Israel.
3. Well, you can't have it both ways. If those territories are to be considered as part of Israel and the UN would recognize those territories as such, then the Arabs living there will receive the full benefits of living in the Israeli liberal democratic system. But do you really expect the Israeli taxpayer to support the Arabs of Qalqilia and Jenin? That's pretty comical, no? Maybe Syria should pay university tuition for the students of Tel Aviv.
Dear Fair,Originally posted by fair
dear NewsGuy
realy I'am admired
how a country based on religion and army would be a democracy
how a country known as .. the army state of Israel
and u are determined that it's democracy
regard's
I'm not sure there is a problem having a Jewish homeland that is a democracy and defended by an army.
Why not?
"1. First of all "if" doesn't apply here. When there is a multi-party election system with fair election process, then a country is considered a democracy. "
Not necessarily, Yougoslavia had a multi-party system too with a fair election process, so does Turkey or Guatemala for example.
"Secondly, I think that the Arabs living in Israel should, indeed, be grateful to the Israeli taxpayer who provides the Arabs with all these social benefits, especially in light of their open support of countries that are at war with Israel. "
In a democracy everyone has the right to express their own view, this shouldn't give them less rights.
"2. On paper?? Please name even one single item that I listed that is not, in fact, granted to Arabs living in Israel. "
They receive all this, and the laws do exist, yet they are discriminated in daily life, they are not getting the same chances for work-opportunity, they get (per child) less subsidies than an average israeli student, wich is in contradiction to the democratic principles, they are often discriminated and yelled after in daily life by average israeli, are refused entry in many places, are sometimes victim of organised anti-arab racist riots, destroying shops and homes, etc.
"3. Well, you can't have it both ways. If those territories are to be considered as part of Israel and the UN would recognize those territories as such, then the Arabs living there will receive the full benefits of living in the Israeli liberal democratic system. But do you really expect the Israeli taxpayer to support the Arabs of Qalqilia and Jenin? That's pretty comical, no? Maybe Syria should pay university tuition for the students of Tel Aviv. "
Israel can't have it both ways either, or it is a part of Israel and they should have the same right as israeli citizens(at least if israel want to pretend to be a democracy), or it should become independant(as is the only international lawful decision). Yet, according to your constitution it's a part of israel, a part in which the citizens have no rights. So it means Israel is not a democracy.
"Not necessarily, Yougoslavia had a multi-party system too with a fair election process, so does Turkey or Guatemala for example."
ok, if those countries have a free election system reflecting popular voting opinion and personal freedoms, then they are democracies. You have to realize that the fact that you don't like the policies of some countries doesn't make them a democracy or not. There is a very narrow definition of what makes for a democracy.
"In a democracy everyone has the right to express their own view, this shouldn't give them less rights."
Yes, that is true to an extene, but as you probably may know, in a democracy, there is no such thing as absolute freedom for everyone to say what they want, when they want to. There are specific laws that govern the freedom of speech in all democracies.
For example, a military officer is NOT entitled to tell that countires military secrets to an enemy. That's called treason.
And, as former Chief Justice of the US Supreme court Oliver Wendel Holmes onece ruled "you cannot yell fire on a crowded theater."
There are also other limitations of freedom of speech.
Many Arabs in Israel have crossed the line, including their elected members of Knesset, who openly support Israel's enemies. That's treason, and they should be very thankful that Israel is not only a democracy, but a liberal democracy at that.
Also, the fact is that while they benefit from the Israeli taxpayer's generosity, the Arabs did not participate in building up and developing Israel, like Israel's Jews have.
So the Arabs should be very grateful for what they are getting from Israel, because they have not contributed equally.
"They receive all this, and the laws do exist, yet they are discriminated in daily life..."
bs. On a regular basis, I read in the Isralei newspapers that one Jewish municipality or another is always complaining that they are not getting their fair share of the governments social benefits. So the Arabs are also complaining about the same stuff that towns like Ashdod, Beer Sheva, Netivot, etc. are unhappy with. Such is life. Everyone would like to get more.
But in a capitalist society like Israel, everyone, including Arabs have the chance of making money for themselves, instead of begging for government charity. They can be as rich as they want, or as poor as they want. It has to do with hard work, not communist-style handouts that kill people's motivation to succeed on their own.
"ok, if those countries have a free election system reflecting popular voting opinion and personal freedoms, then they are democracies. You have to realize that the fact that you don't like the policies of some countries doesn't make them a democracy or not. There is a very narrow definition of what makes for a democracy. "
The us doesn't consider Yougoslavia a democracy, and in Turkey one can just be arrested for saying that kurdistan should have the right to be independant. In Guatemala being a trade-union means being treatened or murdered by right-wing para-military. So free elections doesn't always mean democracy.
"Yes, that is true to an extene, but as you probably may know, in a democracy, there is no such thing as absolute freedom for everyone to say what they want, when they want to. There are specific laws that govern the freedom of speech in all democracies.
There are also other limitations of freedom of speech.
Many Arabs in Israel have crossed the line, including their elected members of Knesset, who openly support Israel's enemies. That's treason, and they should be very thankful that Israel is not only a democracy, but a liberal democracy at that. "
No, actually they are not in official duty and they have the right to express ther opinion in newspapers or declarations(not in the opera i agree). If in france someone says "fuch the president" than he is entitled to do so, if israeli palestinians are demonstrating against israeli policy than they should have the right to do so, otherwise israel isn't a democracy. If someone preferes arafat over sharon he must have the right to do so. I agree that in Cuba freedom of speech in public is lacking, which is a shortcoming.
"Also, the fact is that while they benefit from the Israeli taxpayer's generosity, the Arabs did not participate in building up and developing Israel, like Israel's Jews have. "
they have payed taxes as well and have the same duties, so they should have equal rights as well.
"But in a capitalist society like Israel, everyone, including Arabs have the chance of making money for themselves, instead of begging for government charity. They can be as rich as they want, or as poor as they want. It has to do with hard work, not communist-style handouts that kill people's motivation to succeed on their own."
This is only true if they have an equal chance of making money and getting a good job, which is most capitalist countries, and especially in Israel for palestinians, is not the case.
in communism people have to work too, if they don't, they get nothing and can be fired too. But wages and income are less unequal and everyone can attain university or housing.
" if israeli palestinians are demonstrating against israeli policy than they should have the right to do so, otherwise israel isn't a democracy."
And in fact they have the right to do so. But they don't have the right to support Israel's enemies and to incite violence against Jews and Christians.
"This is only true if they have an equal chance of making money and getting a good job, which is most capitalist countries, and especially in Israel for palestinians, is not the case."
They would have a better chance of working and making money, if Arab workers did not murder their Israeli bosses every so often. It's really a turn-off for the company to have to explain to their Palestinian workers "No Jihad during work hours!"
But, actually, there are many extremely wealthy Arabs in Israel, especially in the construction business. Those who are not so wealthy have the chance to work in some of the other Arab countries, unlike Israelis who are stuck in a small economy being ruined by Palestinians terrorism, Arab embargoes and European economic blackmail. What about Israeli workers' equal rights to make money?
"in communism people have to work too, if they don't, they get nothing and can be fired too. But wages and income are less unequal and everyone can attain university or housing."
No, in practice, communists who didn't work very hard still got their paychecks and food rations. There was never incentive to excell.
At the same time, the members of the Politburo lived like kings in fancy apartments and took long summer vacations by the Black Sea in their luxury homes, while the masses waited online for food and toilet paper.
"And in fact they have the right to do so. But they don't have the right to support Israel's enemies and to incite violence against Jews and Christians. "
in a real democracy they can say whatever they like and support whoever they like, as long as they don't summon people themselves to attack Israel. Besides when they demontrated the violence was directed against them, and incitement to hate arabs is heard all over israel.
"They would have a better chance of working and making money, if Arab workers did not murder their Israeli bosses every so often. It's really a turn-off for the company to have to explain to their Palestinian workers "No Jihad during work hours!" "
actually Israeli palestinians don't participate in the "Jihad", still they are being discriminated (paid less, worse jobs, ...) even in times of peace. Some are wealthy but in general arab israely are poorer than Jewish israeli, because they don't have an equal chance on the labour-market. and as you said most Arab countries are poorer than israel so why would they work there? If israel's economy is weak they should think of making peace and stopping occupation, the current policy won't make it any better(and by the way also destroys the economy of jordan, Libanon and Syria, nobody will invest in a dangerous region).
"No, in practice, communists who didn't work very hard still got their paychecks and food rations. There was never incentive to excell. "
well, people working in a private company will also not work harder than they have to, because their paycheck will be the same anyway.
"At the same time, the members of the Politburo lived like kings in fancy apartments and took long summer vacations by the Black Sea in their luxury homes, while the masses waited online for food and toilet paper."
Actually the leaders of the politbureau live indeed better than common people, but if you compare to the leaders or ministers of other governments they lived really modest.
"in a real democracy they can say whatever they like and support whoever they like, as long as they don't summon people themselves to attack Israel."
No, in democracies, support for terrorist organizations and enemy countries is not necessarily legal.
"Some are wealthy but in general arab israely are poorer than Jewish israeli, because they don't have an equal chance on the labour-market."
If Israelis felt safe and also felt that their businesses would succeed more with Israeli Arab employees, then the Arabs would do better. As is they have a much better standard of living than they would in any Arab country and should stop complaining or move elsewhere in the Arab world where they will have all the freedom to succeed that they wish for, regardless of how rich or poor their countries are.
And anyway, there are Arab countries that are much richer than Israel, so those would be perfect destinations for any Palestinian who doesn't feel they are getting a fair deal in Israel.
"well, people working in a private company will also not work harder than they have to, because their paycheck will be the same anyway."
No offense, but if eventually you get out into the working world in a capitalist country, you will realize that there is a lot of incentive to excel at one's job. Getting a raise, for one, or improving one's qualifications for getting a better job elsewhere, etc.
"Actually the leaders of the politbureau live indeed better than common people, but if you compare to the leaders or ministers of other governments they lived really modest."
That all depends on which officials specifically. But it is the corruption and disparity that is very obvious in the case of communism.
Just btw - here's something from today's Haaretz:
Israeli killed in shooting north of Jerusalem
"A Palestinian killed an Israeli co-worker early Wednesday in a factory in the Atarot industrial area, located north of Jerusalem and on the outskirts of the West Bank town of Ramallah, witnesses said. "
Are you still wondering why some Israelis are not so eager to rush to offer Palestinians jobs?
israeli palestinians should have an equal chance as civilians of a democracy, if one group is discriminated you can't just reply by "than they have to move somewhere else" if they don't want to be discriminated. A real democracy would make laws to prevent discrimination. And this is not something of the last two years, this is going on for many years.
Hey, i worked already for private companies!
I didn't see much difference with state-run companies, and people can have promotion in both and more wage as well (as in most communist countries too). by the way the israeli economy is quite statist as well.
The corruption today in Russia is MUCH worse than it was 10 years ago, and Cuba is much less corrupted and the elite lives a lot more modest than in other latin countries.
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