German minister's terrorist past (Joschka Fischer)

cerulean · 02-12-2003, 12:55 PM

Germany's Mr. Tough Guy
By Michael Kelly
Wednesday, February 12, 2003; Page A29
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Feb11.html
The author points out that Joschka Fischer has a history of being a terrorist and terrorist sympathizer himself. A few quotes from the article:

In 2001, Stern magazine published five photographs of you in action that day. What these pictures depicted was described by Berman in a deeply informed 25,000-word article, "The Passion of Joschka Fischer" (The New Republic, Sept. 3, 2001). The photos showed you, Mr. Fischer, inflicting a "gruesome beating" on a young policeman named Rainer Marx: "Fischer and other people on the attack, the white-helmeted cop going into a crouch; Fischer's black-gloved fist raised as if to punch the crouching cop on the back; Fischer's comrades crowding around; the cop huddled on the ground, Fischer and his comrades appearing to kick him . . ."

In 1976, to protest the death in prison of Baader-Meinhof founder Ulrike Meinhof, you planned and participated in a Frankfurt demonstration in which, Berman wrote, "somebody tossed a Molotov cocktail at a policeman and burned him nearly to death." You were arrested but not charged. In 2001, Meinhof's daughter, Bettina Rohl (who gave those damning photos to Stern) told the press that you were responsible for the throwing of that firebomb. Other contemporary witnesses, Berman reported, said that you "had never ruled out the use of Molotovs and may even have favored it." You denied it, for the record.

In 1969, you attended the meeting of the Palestine Liberation Organization in which the PLO resolved that its ultimate aim was the extinction of Israel -- that is to say, the extinction or expulsion of the Jews of Israel. Seven years later, Revolutionary Cells terrorists led by your Frankfurt colleague, Wilfried Boese, hijacked an Air France plane to Entebbe, Uganda. The hijackers intended to murder all the Jewish passengers on that flight but were killed by Israeli commandos. "Suddenly," Berman wrote, "the implication of anti-Zionism struck home to [Fischer]. What did it mean that, back in Algiers in 1969, the PLO, with the young Fischer in attendance, had voted the Zionist entity into extinction? Now he knew what it meant."

LionOfLoyalty · 02-12-2003, 01:10 PM

It appears that this german is...disturbingly nostalgic.

Salim · 02-12-2003, 02:07 PM

What can you expect from an American pro-government newspaper in times like this.
If you want some information beyond this exorbitant exaggerated
article, try to use other sources.
Btw, isn't this a clear sign that Germany has undergone a drastic change concerning its political culture?
The change from a left-winged radical to a democratic foreign minister is all the evicence you can ask for.

LionOfLoyalty · 02-12-2003, 02:28 PM

First, the Washington Post is not a source that toes the government line. As a matter of fact it has a history of impartiality, and was once responsible for the resignation of a sitting president during Watergate.

Secondly, the point I was trying to make is that it's quite possible that this person has not changed his views and the fact that he and his party do so well despite his terrorist past and connection to groups that have murdered innocent people is not a good sign for modern germany.

Salim · 02-12-2003, 02:34 PM

Sorry I was wrong.
Please invade us and save us from ourselves.
Ahh, and dont forget to beat the Nazi out of everyone of us.
(It's an eternal thing, the majority of this forum agreed on it)

LionOfLoyalty · 02-12-2003, 02:42 PM

I never implied it was an eternal thing, nor did I suggest invasion. I simply stated my opinion of one man and his actions, and the fact that it is clear that the majority of the German people need to be properly informed about the past of this man, and then make their own decision by the process of their democratic government. Please accept my apologies if my statement was viewed in a different way.

philby · 02-12-2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Salim
........The change from a left-winged radical to a democratic foreign minister is all the evidence you can ask for.

He's not too excited about democracy in Baghdad, nor does he seem particularly vexed by Mr. Hussein's unspeakable on-going atrociites. Probably, he thinks of the beleagured Iraqis as "mere Arabs" and not worthy of the concern accorded "real Europeans" like Yugoslavs.

Of course, I admit to feeling personal about all this. I was in the US Army in Aschaffenburg (72-73) and got exactly 7 weekends off in 15 months because of constant guard duty triggered by the Baader-Meinhof murdering morons and their pals (like Fischer).

Salim · 02-12-2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by LionOfLoyalty
[...] and the fact that it is clear that the majority of the German people need to be properly informed about the past of this man, and then make their own decision by the process of their democratic government

This subject has been discussed throughout the German media and lasted several weeks.
MY guess would be that about 90% of Germany knows about J. Fischer and his past.

Again, you don't have to save us from ourselves, we are a democratic country, we do have a free press, and we even have water toilets, even though many Americans can't believe it.

andak01 · 02-13-2003, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by Salim
...and we even have water toilets, even though many Americans can't believe it.

Wasserklos? Unglaublich!

**Mediocrates** · 02-13-2003, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by Salim
This subject has been discussed throughout the German media and lasted several weeks.
MY guess would be that about 90% of Germany knows about J. Fischer and his past.

Again, you don't have to save us from ourselves, we are a democratic country, we do have a free press, and we even have water toilets, even though many Americans can't believe it.

Would that we were all forgiven such youthful indiscretions like assault, battery, mayhem, proclaiming the flaming downfall of the state and so on.

JustPat · 02-13-2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Salim
This subject has been discussed throughout the German media and lasted several weeks.
MY guess would be that about 90% of Germany knows about J. Fischer and his past.

Again, you don't have to save us from ourselves, we are a democratic country, we do have a free press, and we even have water toilets, even though many Americans can't believe it.

And of course that makes it OK. Where is your heart? your conscience? Is there no moral mackbone in Germany?

Salim · 02-13-2003, 10:33 PM

What would be an adequate moral backbone ?
To agree with everything the cradle of all civilisations wants us to do?
All I'm trying to state is, that the U.S. has lost its credibility and that the majority of German people doesn't agree with the way your government wants to rule the earth.
Everyday that passes makes it more difficult for us to belive in your former values. You are no archetype for us anymore, but that kind of archetype that has failed.
It's really frightening me how fast this process did occur.

Am Yisrael · 02-14-2003, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by Salim
What would be an adequate moral backbone ?
To agree with everything the cradle of all civilisations wants us to do?
All I'm trying to state is, that the U.S. has lost its credibility and that the majority of German people doesn't agree with the way your government wants to rule the earth.
Everyday that passes makes it more difficult for us to belive in your former values. You are no archetype for us anymore, but that kind of archetype that has failed.
It's really frightening me how fast this process did occur.

No it is ok to criticise a government or regime just as long as it has some evidence to back it up. The US is not trying to rule the world by the way. Thats the UN.

Ok so you obviously dont agree with the US's policy of international conduct, and plenty of Germans wouldnt support an invasion of Iraq even with the UNs backing. So whats your problem then? If Germany is so "set" on a more inspections instead of a new resolution, why didnt they opt for it 10 years ago instead of now? Germany (as most of the western world) left Iraq to its own devices knowing Saddam will rebuild his evil status.

JustPat · 02-14-2003, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by Salim
What would be an adequate moral backbone ?
To agree with everything the cradle of all civilisations wants us to do?
All I'm trying to state is, that the U.S. has lost its credibility and that the majority of German people doesn't agree with the way your government wants to rule the earth.
Everyday that passes makes it more difficult for us to belive in your former values. You are no archetype for us anymore, but that kind of archetype that has failed.
It's really frightening me how fast this process did occur.

Let's start with honoring our alliances. When Germany of days gone by joined NATO there was a commitment to protect and defend it allies. Taken on its face, how can the Germany of today, a quite different country, not honor Turkey's request?

The US doe not want to "rule the world." As a matter of fact, there is a strong commitment to keep our noses out of other people's business unless it affects us. When we do stick our noses into the business of the world, we seek to get it back out as quickly as possible. What other nation has used its influence to bring freedom to more people. We don't always get it right, but who else is provideing such leadership? France, who loves to complain and then depends on the US to back its UN actions? Belgium, who thinks it has been appointed "World Judge?" Or maybe Germany, who is still trying to redefine itself since the reunification?

Don't like our example or values? Who do you suggest to be a better model? The US is far from perfect, but here we have a sense of fairness and equality, driven by the ideal and tempered with the pragmatic, that has kept us on a pretty even keel. Morally, the reprobates got the press, but the majority of our people still hold to the basics. The communist model was and is morally bankrupt, look at Russia. The socialist model isn't any better, as France plainly shows. Pure democracy doesn't make the grade, eveyone doing what is right in his own eyes. Our republic has shown strength and flexibility that have allowed us to deal with our moral activists without imploding. Will you be able to say the same after 200+ years of reunificaton?

You are awed by the changes you see in the US, what will keep the new Germany from falling back into the traps of your past?

ibrodsky · 02-14-2003, 02:42 PM

I don't believe in "the eternal Nazi." But I do see a similarity between the days leading up to WW II and today.

The German people were intimidated by the Nazis and let them take over. Now, they are intimidated by Arab/Islamist terrorists and hope if we don't bother them they won't bother us.

Not to change the subject, I found the statement by the French minister at the UN today quite amazing. He assured his listeners that France is an "old country" (a dig back at Donald Rumsfeld) that has always stood up for what's right.

I couldn't help but think of French collaboration with the Nazi occupation when he said that.