Will the US stick around for the long haul?

[LionOfLoyalty]

Frankly, my opinion on the war to destroy Saddam is that it's a wonderful idea. However, I'm worried that we'll see a repeat of Afghanistan and the US will leave before it's job is done. What we really need is a MacArthur-esque post-war occupation of Iraq in order to turn it into a democratic country. I'm worried we may just see the installation of a friendly dictator. It's essential that the United States follow through on it's promise to bring democracy to Iraq, for the sake of it's credibility as well as for the sake of the region itself. What do you think?

[localbrew]

You pose a serious question, one I have given much thought too. My initial reaction some months ago when this question first came up was on the side of occupation. But the more I think about it the more unwise I think this would be.

After all we are dealing with cultural and religious ideologies that may not be commensurate to democracy. Maybe the best we can hope for is to install honest Iraqi’s in a government and hope they stay honest. This will ultimately depend on the will of the people. We simply can’t impose our will on an entire population of a country.

Maybe it is enough we just go into Iraq, oust Saddam and his cronies and disarm that country of ALL its WMD. Then of course before leaving take our share of oil as payment for our efforts, etc. Set them up with a neat little moderate government and see how it goes. After all Iraq is not exactly a poor country. They have plenty of oil revenue to provide for the people if they choose to do so.

At the end of the day our goal is to get rid of the WMD not to tell them how to live. If they end up trying it all over again in 10-20 years we can pay them another visit.

I mean look at what is next on our plate. It is of course N. Korea. Should we occupy that country as well? I think not but we will have to rid them of their nuclear proliferation aspirations one way or the other. Despite S. Korean popular public opinion of appeasement for the sake of God knows what.

[LionOfLoyalty]

But frankly, I don't think the main goal should be disarmment. I don't think this war is worth doing unless it's going to provide true democracy amongst the Arab middle east. Without that terrorism can never be fully stopped. We need to turn Iraq into an example for the rest of the middle east. If not, we're just going to have to do it all over again later.

[Israelite-Tribe]

Umm.. actually setting up a democracy in Iraq would be a bad idea considering that Israel is right now the only democracy in the Middle East and that is part of the reasons why America supports it a whole lot... Now if Iraq becomes a democracy... America will lean to less support of Israel... it will still support Israel alot but less than before...

[ibrodsky]

A democratic Arab state, particularly one that has been historically opposed to Israel's existence, would be a boon to Israel.

3 or 4 democratic Arab states would be an even greater boon.

I wouldn't worry so much about US support if the enemy behaved in civilized fashion.

[LionOfLoyalty]

Perhaps in the short term that could occur, however I believe that US support for Israel is built on more than just Israel's position as the Middle East's only democracy. It also is built on the long historical ties in economic, technological, spiritual and military endeavours. The United States and Israel's fate are inexorably linked, and I think the government of the United States is aware of that. Furthermore, I would hope that once the Arabs have democratic governments, and it is shown to the Arab people that the US is here to free them from the despots they currently suffer under, the anti-american, and by extension anti-Israel sentiment will decline. This would of course, be the best case scenario.

Originally posted by Israelite-Tribe
Umm.. actually setting up a democracy in Iraq would be a bad idea considering that Israel is right now the only democracy in the Middle East and that is part of the reasons why America supports it a whole lot... Now if Iraq becomes a democracy... America will lean to less support of Israel... it will still support Israel alot but less than before...

[localbrew]

Iraq really isn’t an Islamic state in the true sense. It is really more of a secular state. They actually have pig farms in Iraq. Tariq Aziz is actually a Catholic. So I guess if any Arab country could become democratic it would be Iraq. Still the vast majority are Muslims.

I just don’t see how they would get from the Koran to democracy. But I guess anything is possible over time.

[cerulean]

Iraq used to be a relatively progressive Arab state. Like most Arab states, it has regressed over the past 30-40 years. In theory, re-reform should be possible.

Interesting article on Iraqi treatment of women currently:
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/art...le.asp?ID=6132

[LionOfLoyalty]

Having an Islamic democracy is not impossible, Turkey is living proof. I'm not sure if you're aware, but there was a time, around WWI and WWII when people that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy, and today very few people would think that.

Originally posted by localbrew
I just don’t see how they would get from the Koran to democracy. But I guess anything is possible over time.

[localbrew]

Originally posted by LionOfLoyalty
Having an Islamic democracy is not impossible, Turkey is living proof. I'm not sure if you're aware, but there was a time, around WWI and WWII when people that Catholicism was incompatible with democracy, and today very few people would think that.

Let’s be absolutely clear here with your statement about Catholicism. As an institution the Catholic Church has never been democratic period. The Pope is the absolute ruler. That is not to say that at any time in history since democracy was invented Catholics, the faithful, were ever against democracy. There is a distinct difference. I don’t know if a religion should be democratic or not because I am an agnostic. I have no view on the subject but please don’t try and spin democracy in the Catholic Church with people who are Catholic.

Secondly, a religion is not the same thing as a government. Any religion which attempts to become a country for the sake of religion is doomed to failure in the long term. This is exactly what is wrong with Islamic States and why they are in so much trouble now. When religion drives politics instead of national interests those nations become a prisoner of religion instead of national aspirations.

Israel is coming perilously close to falling into this same trap by calling itself as Jewish State. I do realize about 20% of Israeli citizens are of Arab origin but still you can see the parallel I am drawing. Current Israeli law as I understand it only allows Jews to immigrate and become citizens albeit they are from differing cultures. Please correct me if I am wrong here.

My basic point is religion and politics do not mix well.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by localbrew ... a religion is not the same thing as a government. Any religion which attempts to become a country for the sake of religion is doomed to failure in the long term. ... My basic point is religion and politics do not mix well.

Are you familiar with the history of Israel? Except for its strong faith foundation there would have been no nation. This is a nation that claims a mandate from G_d.

The US too has a strong faith foundation and was the creation of men and women of faith seeking to establish a nation where they were free to exercise that faith without persecution. How far we have fallen.

How sad that people have forgotten the roots of these two great nations.

[judicial meanz]

Originally posted by LionOfLoyalty
Frankly, my opinion on the war to destroy Saddam is that it's a wonderful idea. However, I'm worried that we'll see a repeat of Afghanistan and the US will leave before it's job is done. What we really need is a MacArthur-esque post-war occupation of Iraq in order to turn it into a democratic country. I'm worried we may just see the installation of a friendly dictator. It's essential that the United States follow through on it's promise to bring democracy to Iraq, for the sake of it's credibility as well as for the sake of the region itself. What do you think?

We do a good job at war, but in the last 40 years, not a great job at the rebuilding process. I think they are looking at a "Marshall Plan" rebuilding process, with military governors eventually turning into an elected governence, but this takes time.

Radical Islam wont stand still either, and its my bet they will do all the can to undermine anything the US does to install Sharia law and make Iraq an Islamic Republic.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by LionOfLoyalty
What we really need is a MacArthur-esque post-war occupation of Iraq in order to turn it into a democratic country... What do you think?

The post-war occupation and rehabilitation of Iraq are some of the worst parts of the whole idea of going to war.

Here in the U.S., we don't have the funds to even rehabilitate large parts of our own country, much less counter the ongoing recession.

I don't know where we're going to get the money to give to Iraq, other than further taxing successful Americans.

And once again, looking at our past history, every time the U.S. has lent it support to any Muslim regime (including Iraq and Afghanistan), they have always used our own funds, weapons and training to attack us later.

When I see who exactly is expected to assume control of post-war Iraq, I am dismayed.

It seems that the South of Iraq will be handed over to a bunch of Shiite fanatics, all of whom could win an Ayatollah Khomeini look-alike contest. We've got to be out of our minds to fund and arm those people.

It's one thing to topple a brutal Arab dictator as a warning shot for the rest of America's Islamic enemies, but to try to rebuild an entire Arab country is really much more than the American taxpayer should be asked to do, especially during a recession.

[cerulean]

It seems that the South of Iraq will be handed over to a bunch of Shiite fanatics, all of whom could win an Ayatollah Khomeini look-alike contest. We've got to be out of our minds to fund and arm those people.

I have to agree that would be a huge mistake.

It's one thing to topple a brutal Arab dictator as a warning shot for the rest of America's Islamic enemies, but to try to rebuild an entire Arab country is really much more than the American taxpayer should be asked to do, especially during a recession.

There are a number of oil-rich nations that could assist Iraq. American beneficence will not be an occasion for later gratitude, if history is any indicator.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
I don't know where we're going to get the money to give to Iraq, other than further taxing successful Americans.

Actually, with the revenue available through Iraqi oil properly administered, the whole country can be turned to prosperity and it won't cost the US a penny.