I've always said France and Belgium were useless.. This proves my point

[IsraelAdvocate]

I've always said France and Belgium were useless.. This proves my point -


Lawmakers Say Key NATO Allies Betray U.S.

February 12, 2003 03:14 AM EST


WASHINGTON - Angry lawmakers say U.S. allies have betrayed the United States and the NATO military alliance in a dispute over a possible war with Iraq.

Some lawmakers suggested the survival of the alliance may be at stake - a concern voiced by Secretary of State Colin Powell. He told senators Tuesday that NATO and U.N. alliances could fall apart because of a reluctance to provide military support sought by Turkey, the only Muslim NATO member.

Powell was returning to Capitol Hill on Wednesday to appear before the House International Relations Committee, whose leaders have strongly backed President Bush's tough line on Iraq.

The panel's top Democrat, Rep. Tom Lantos of California, said in remarks prepared for the hearing that he was "particularly disgusted by the blind intransigence and utter ingratitude" of France, Germany and Belgium, which have blocked a U.S.-backed plan to improve Turkey's defenses against any attack from neighboring Iraq. The three countries, which favor giving U.N. weapons inspectors more time in Iraq, see the plan as making war more likely.

"If it were not for the heroic efforts of America's military, France, Germany and Belgium today would be Soviet socialist republics," Lantos said. "The failure of these three states to honor their commitments is beneath contempt."

The committee's chairman, Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., said in his prepared remarks that "America has fought distant wars to defend whole continents from a succession of aggressors, but the beneficiaries of the safety we have ensured often devote their energies to impeding our efforts to help others."

U.S. officials say failing to help defend Turkey would violate the basic NATO principle that an attack against one member is considered an attack against all.

Powell said if the dispute isn't resolved, the United States would work independently with other NATO nations to boost Turkey's defenses.

Sen. Joseph Biden of Delaware, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said that if the United States is forced to bypass the alliance, "NATO will quickly atrophy."

Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said Congress may consider reducing financial support for NATO.

Senate Budget Committee Chairman Don Nickles, R-Okla., told Powell at the panel's hearing Tuesday that he was "amazed at (France's) presumption that they're controlling the alliance."

An International Relations Committee member, Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., suggested creating a new defense alliance in which France, "a second-rate country," wouldn't have veto power over U.S. foreign policy.

Passions surrounding the Iraq debate have increased ahead of a crucial report Friday by U.N. weapons inspectors on Iraqi cooperation in the search for weapons of mass destruction.

President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, met in New York on Tuesday with chief inspector Hans Blix. They discussed the inspection process, a senior U.S. official said.

Powell said the United States would maintain pressure on the U.N. Security Council to back the use of force as an option. "It is clear a moment of truth is coming for the Security Council," he said.

Also Tuesday, the Al-Jazeera satellite television station broadcast what is believed to be an audio tape of Osama bin Laden, urging Iraqis to carry out suicide attacks against Americans.

Powell said the tape showed that the "nexus between terrorists and states that are developing weapons of mass destruction can no longer be looked away from and ignored."

Some Democrats, though, say the Bush administration has not proven that Iraq poses an immediate threat to the United States. Sen. Ernest Hollings, D-S.C. said the Bush administration was "barreling in" to get Iraqi President Saddam Hussein over international objections.

"You really believe that regardless of the China, Russia and everyone else and the alliances that we just go ahead, break up the alliance just to get Saddam, who's not an immediate threat?" he asked Powell.

Powell said that if the United Nations and NATO fail to act after Saddam ignores repeated U.N. resolutions calling on him to disarm, "then who's breaking up the alliance? Not the United States. The alliance is breaking itself up because it will not meet its responsibilities."

[tandem]

i'm not surprised at all to hear this. i find it strange, though. a small country like belgium continues to enjoy peace and feel secure because of the NATO mutual defence clause enacted after sept 11 that an attack against a NATO member is basically an attack against the entire alliance. maybe the united states should push for a revision to exempt belgium from this clause

[localbrew]

Good lord not just Belgium. What about France who ceased giving military support to NATO in 1965. And what about Germany?

Have you heard the latest today? The USA is pulling some NATO troops out of Germany and sending them to Italy.

[judicial meanz]

Originally posted by localbrew
Good lord not just Belgium. What about France who ceased giving military support to NATO in 1965. And what about Germany?

Have you heard the latest today? The USA is pulling some NATO troops out of Germany and sending them to Italy.

Fox news called France, Germany and Belgium the "Axis of Weasels". I think it fits nicely.

[Salim]

I have read an interesting article (http://www.zeit.de/) about the American tradition of anti-European behaviour (Eurowimp, Eurotrash)
Seems that many of you guys are actually living in America, maybe you could give me some further details about this topic.
Axis of weasels is a good start btw.

[localbrew]

Originally posted by Salim
I have read an interesting article (http://www.zeit.de/) about the American tradition of anti-European behaviour (Eurowimp, Eurotrash)
Seems that many of you guys are actually living in America, maybe you could give me some further details about this topic.
Axis of weasels is a good start btw.

I can’t read German anymore than I can get into your mind sir. Exactly what are you trying to say here? The axis of weasels is the perfect topic for us to be talking about. That would include France, Germany and Belgium. Waffle is the term that most readily comes to mind for me as in “Belgium Waffle”.

This is not some kind of new diplomatic dance were talking about, this is this is the slow waltz of the alliance which may produce some bloody toes. The sons, daughter, nieces and nephews of fallen Americans in WWII still riddle through this American society, make no mistake about it.

If scum bag countries like France, Germany and little Belgium want to go their own way I say fine but in the process please don’t try and take NATO along with you. They have already made the UN just about irrelevant, what more do they want? Didn’t Germany make the ‘League of Nations’ irrelevant just before WWII?

[JustPat]

Axis of Weasels
That's great! Let them bail their own butts out of the next fire they suffer.

[judicial meanz]

http://saturn.he.net/~danger/weasels.jpg


The Axis of Weasels-France and Belgium!

[judicial meanz]

Originally posted by Salim
I have read an interesting article (http://www.zeit.de/) about the American tradition of anti-European behaviour (Eurowimp, Eurotrash)
Seems that many of you guys are actually living in America, maybe you could give me some further details about this topic.
Axis of weasels is a good start btw.

To be honest, I have never had any hard feelings against Europeans, and I really dont now, even though the politics of the moment makes it "in style".

I tend to take people one at a time. One of my best friends is a German citizen, and we often discuss this point. His take is, after living in America for over 20 years, that Americans value individualism and fierce ideals, and sometimes that clashes with the deeply felt European sense of tradition. I tend to agree with him.

I have been to France and was treated extremely rudely by some idiot who singled me out because I was obviously an American and made a scene of it, but like I said, I take people one at a time. One moron doesnt represent a country.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by judicial meanz
To be honest, I have never had any hard feelings against Europeans, and I really dont now, even though the politics of the moment makes it "in style".

I tend to take people one at a time. One of my best friends is a German citizen, and we often discuss this point. His take is, after living in America for over 20 years, that Americans value individualism and fierce ideals, and sometimes that clashes with the deeply felt European sense of tradition. I tend to agree with him.

I have been to France and was treated extremely rudely by some idiot who singled me out because I was obviously an American and made a scene of it, but like I said, I take people one at a time. One moron doesnt represent a country.

I wholeheartedly agree. But the US has earned its "ugly American" reputation by being such fierce idealists secure in our individuality. The French have also earned their reputation as being rude primadonnas who think their are superior to the rest of the world. We speak in generalities, it's hard of avoid stereotyping. How to turn the things we are known for into strengths in the world community is our challenge.

[takeo]

If scum bag countries like France, Germany and little Belgium want to go their own way I say fine but in the process please don’t try and take NATO along with you. They have already made the UN just about irrelevant, what more do they want? Didn’t Germany make the ‘League of Nations’ irrelevant just before WWII?

Don't forget that those three countries express the feelings of the populations in the whole of Europe according to all opinion-polls, both American and internal ones. Even in GB and Spain the great majority of the population resists the idea of a war, and it costed Blair a lot of support. Let's not forget that in some months there will be elections in belgium, what can explain the current courageous position of the Belgians.
Europeans are fet up with the us-insistence to provoke a war, with or without international approval, in a country they have no jurisdiction over whatsoever.
also let's not forget that the overwelming majority of the security council-members support the French-belgian-German position, some even more fiercly such as Chile, Mexico, Syria and Russia. Only Spain and GB support the us-position, and bulgaria with some resevations.

It seems like the us is much more isolated than we are, and even a growing part of americans want to give the inspectors more time (around 60 %...). the hawks are isolated...

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Don't forget that those three countries express the feelings of the populations in the whole of Europe according to all opinion-polls, both American and internal ones.

Nice try, takeo, but actually, once one sees reality, a completely different picture is revealed than the one you paint.

First of all, it is France, Germany and Belgium which are isolated, and who do not represent Europe at all. These are almost pariah nations at this point.

Here are the nations supporting the U.S., in what is called the "coalition of the willing":

Britain, Israel, Australia, Bulgaria, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Turkey, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Macedonia, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

Seems like France, Germany and Belgium are in the minority, as usual.

But more importantly, let's see how the EU holds up with such divisions. Historically, France and Germany have never been able to get along with any other nation for more than about 5 minutes, before they try to unceremoniously slaughter a few million of their fellow Europeans.

I predict that if NATO collapses (and I sure hope it does), the EU will begin crumbling right away -- specifically due to France and Germany's arrogant attempts to dictate policy to the rest of the Europeans. Soon enough, we'll see the return of the Old Europe.

[humus_sapiens]

IMHO, the reasons for their position will be found from Iraqi business books. I suspect it'll be some interesting reading. AFAIK, Saddam owes tens of billions of dollars to Russia alone.

[takeo]

Newsguy, in other circumstances you seem to attend a lot of importance to opinion polls, well, opinion polls in virtually EVERY European country shows an overwelming resistance against war against Iraq. Even in Australia 100's of 1000's of people came on the street, and i expect today many people in the whole world.
so no, we're not islolated.
What's more, the countries you mention are, most of them, unimportant poor little Eastern european countries who want to express their loyalty to the US. but they want to become member of the EU as well, desperately, so they'll not provoke a rift with germany and france. What's more is that even in Eastern Europe the great majority of the population is against war, in Turkey even 95% of the population. but we all know that the democratic nature of those countries is questionable.
By the way the position of the Dutch government isn't one of open support for war, it wants to express "nato-solidarity" but do not feel the time right for military action right away. Spain and Italy are currently governed by neo-fascists governments (lots of people who adore mussolini and Franco, some of them were even highranking in the franco-regime) but there is enormous amount of protests in those countries against war. I think the demonstrations will the largest in Southern Europe.


But if you look to the world, every single country except the ones you mentioned are AGAINST the US-position, almost the whole of Asia, Africa, the former Soviet-Union and Latin-America...

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
Newsguy, in other circumstances you seem to attend a lot of importance to opinion polls, well, opinion polls in virtually EVERY European country shows an overwelming resistance against war against Iraq.

Takeo,
Opinion polls are only worth anything when the citation includes the questions asked. The way queries are made slews results. Peace activists slew their poles toward anti-war results. Hawks slew theirs toward going to war. Quoting numbers is totally worthless.

90% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

There are currently no less than 40 countries that have signed on to the US led coalition. Today that is the only number that matters.