Jerusalem

[abu afak]

STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY
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Ibn Warraq is the author of 'Why I Am Not A Muslim'
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PART 1 of 2

Given the stupefying enormity of the acts of barbarism of 11 September, moral outrage is appropriate and justified, as are demands for punishment. But a civilized society cannot permit blind attacks on all those perceived as “Muslims” or Arabs. Not all Muslims or all Arabs are terrorists. Nor are they implicated in the horrendous events of Tuesday. Police protection for individual Muslims, mosques and other institutions must be increased.

However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with Terrorist Tuesday is to wilfully ignore the obvious and to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Usama bin Laden and his followers make little sense. The West needs to understand them in order to be able to deal with them and avoid past mistakes. We are confronted with Islamic terrorists and must take seriously the Islamic component. Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, do not understand the passionate, religious, and anti-western convictions of Islamic terrorists. These God-intoxicated fanatics blindly throw away their lives in return for the Paradise of Seventy Two Virgins offered Muslim martyrs killed in the Holy War against all infidels.

Jihad is “a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of the Prophet Muhammad [the Prophet]. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur’an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims”[1].

The world is divided into two spheres, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. The latter, the Land of Warfare, is a country belonging to infidels which has not been subdued by Islam. The Dar al-Harb becomes the Dar-al Islam, the Land of Islam, upon the promulgation of the edicts of Islam. Thus the totalitarian nature of Islam is nowhere more apparent than in the concept of Jihad, the Holy War, whose ultimate aim is to conquer the entire world and submit it to the one true faith, to the law of Allah. To Islam alone has been granted the truth: there is no possibility of salvation outside it. Muslims must fight and kill in the name of Allah.

We read (IX. 5-6):“Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them”;

IV.76: “Those who believe fight in the cause of God”;

VIII.39-42: “Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.”

Those who die fighting for the only true religion, Islam, will be amply rewarded in the life to come:

IV.74: “Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God’s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.”

What should we make with these further unfortunate verses from the Qur’an:

*Torment to Non-believers->IV.56
*Only Islam Acceptable-> III.85
* No friends from outsiders->III.118
*No friends with Jews, christians->V. 51
* No friends with non believers->IV.144, III.28
* No friends with parents/siblings if not believers->IX.23
* Fight non-believers->IX.123 * Kill non-believers->IV.89
*Anti Jewish verses->V.82
* God a "plotter"->VIII.30
*Killing Idolators->IX.5
* Idolators are unclean just because they are idolator->IX.28
* Forcing non-believers to pay tax->IX.29
* The Torment of Hell->XLIV.43-58
* All except Muslims/Jews/Christians/Sabeans will go to hell->II.62, V.69
* Cast terror in the hearts, smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers->VIII.12
* Smite the neck of unbelievers->XLVII.4
* Severe Punishment for atheists->X.4 ; V.10 ; V.86
* Severe Punishment for non-believers->XXII.19-22 ; LXXII.23, XCVIII.6
*Punishing non-believers of Hereafter->XVII.10
* Punishing for rejecting faith->III.91
* Non believers go to hell->IV.140 ; VII.36 * Partial Believers go to hell too->IV.150-1
* Sadistic punishments->LVI.42-43
* Punishment for apostates->XVI.106 ; III.86-88 ; III.90 ; IV.137.
* Threat of punishement for not going to war->IX.38-39, XLVIII.16
*God making someone more sinful so he can be punished more->III178
*Intentionally preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth->VI.25 ; VI.110
* Intentionally preventing unbelievers from Understanding Quran->XVII.45-46
* It is God who causes people to err and He punishes them for that->XVII.97
* God could guide, if he chose to, but did not->VI.35
* Intentionally misguiding those whom he pleases to->XIV.4
* Willfully misguiding some->XVI.93
* God causes human to err->IV.143 ; VII.178
* God deceiving humans->IV.142

It is surely time for us who live in the West and enjoy freedom of expression to examine unflinchingly and unapologetically the tenets of these fanatics, including the Qur’an which divinely sanctions violence. We should unapologetically examine the life of the Prophet, who was not above political assassinations, and who was responsible for the massacre of the Jews.

[abu afak]

STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ibn Warraq is the author of 'Why I Am Not A Muslim'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART 2 of 2

“Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence,” apologists of Islam argue.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur’an, the Sunna, and the Hadith – Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. The fundamentalists, with greater logic and coherence than so-called moderate or liberal Muslims, have made Islam the basis of a radical utopian ideology that aims to replace capitalism and democracy as the reigning world system. Islamism accounts for the anti-American hatred to be found in places far from the Arab-Israeli conflict, like Nigeria and Afghanistan, demonstrating that the Middle East conflict cannot legitimately be used to explain this phenomenon called Islamism. A Palestinian involved in the WTC bombings would be seen as a martyr to the Palestinian cause, but even more as a martyr to Islam.

“Ah, but Islamic fundamentalism is like any other kind of fundamentalism, one must not demonise it. It is the result of political, social grievances. It must be explained in terms of economics and not religion,” continue the apologists of Islam.

There are enormous differences between Islamic fundamentalism and any other kind of modern fundamentalism. It is true that Hindu, Jewish, and Christian fundamentalists have been responsible for acts of violence, but these have been confined to particular countries and regions. Islamic fundamentalism has global aspirations: the submission of the entire world to the all-embracing Shari’a, Islamic Law, a fascist system of dictates designed to control every single act of all individuals. Nor do Hindus or Jews seek to convert the world to their religion. Christians do indulge in proselytism but no longer use acts of violence or international terrorism to achieve their aims.

Only Islam treats non-believers as inferior beings who are expendable in the drive to world hegemony. Islam justifies any means to achieve the end of establishing an Islamic world.

Islamic fundamentalists recruit among Muslim populations, they appeal to Islamic religious symbols, and they motivate their recruits with Islamic doctrine derived from the Qur’an. Economic poverty alone cannot explain the phenomenon of Islamism. Poverty in Brazil or Mexico has not resulted in Christian fundamentalist acts of international terror. Islamists are against what they see as western materialism itself. Their choice is clear: Islam or jahiliyya. The latter term is redefined to mean modern-style jahiliyya of modern, democratic, industrialised societies of Europe and America, where man is under the dominion of man rather than Allah. They totally reject the values of the West, which they feel are poisoning Islamic culture. So, it is not just a question of economics, but of an entirely different worldview, which they wish to impose on the whole world. Sayyid Qutb, the very influential Egyptian Muslim thinker, said that “dominion should be reverted to Allah alone, namely to Islam, that holistic system He conferred upon men. An all-out offensive, a jihad, should be waged against modernity so that this moral rearmament could take place. The ultimate objective is to re-establish the Kingdom of Allah upon earth...”[2]

It is surely time for moderate Muslims to stand up and be counted. I should like to see them do three things:

All moderate Muslims should unequivocally denounce this barbarism, should condemn it for what it is: the butchery of innocent people,
2. All moderate Muslim citizens of the United States should proclaim their Americanness, their patriotism, and their solidarity with the families of the victims. They should show their pride in their country by giving blood and other aid to victims and their families.

3. All moderate Muslims should take this opportunity to examine the tenets of their faith; should look at the Qur’an, recognize its role in the instigation of religious violence, and see it for what it is, a problematical human document reflecting 7th or perhaps 8th Century values which the West has largely outgrown.

While it should not be too difficult for moderate Muslims to accept the need to denounce the violence of Terrorist Tuesday, I am not at all optimistic about their courage or willingness to proclaim their love for their chosen country, the USA, or examine the Qur’an critically.

Too many Muslims are taught from an early age that their first allegiance is to Islam. They are exhorted in sermons in mosques, and in books by such Muslim intellectuals as Dr Siddiqui of the Muslim Institute in London, that if the laws of the land conflict with any of the tenets of Islam, then they must break the laws of the infidels, and only follow the Law of God, the Shari’a, Islamic Law.

It is a remarkable fact that at the time of the Gulf War, a high proportion of Muslims living in the West supported Saddam Hussein. In the aftermath of the WTC terror, it is now clear from reports in the media that many Muslims, even those living in the West, see these acts of barbarism as acts of heroism; they give their unequivocal support to their hero, Usama bin Laden.

Few Muslims have shown themselves capable of scrutinising their sacred text rationally. Indeed any criticism of their religious tenets is taken as an insult to their faith, for which so many Muslims seem ready to kill (as in the Rushdie affair or the Taslima Nasreen affair). Muslims seem to be unaware that the research of western scholars concerning the existence of figures such as Abraham, Isaac and Joseph or the authorship of the Pentateuch applies directly to their belief system. Furthermore, it is surely totally irrational to continue to believe that the Qur’an is the word of God when the slightest amount of rational thought will reveal that the Qur’an contains words and passages addressed to God (e.g. VI.104; VI.114; XVII.1; XXVII.91; LXXXI.15-29; lxxxiv.16-19; etc.); or that it is full of historical errors and inconsistencies.

Respect for other cultures, for other values than our own, is a hallmark of a civilised society. But Multiculturalism is based on some fundamental misconceptions. First, there is the erroneous and sentimental belief that all cultures, deep down, have the same values; or, at least, if different, are equally worthy of respect. But the truth is that not all cultures have the same values, and not all values are worthy of respect. There is nothing sacrosanct about customs or cultural traditions: they can change under criticism. After all, the secularist values of the West are not much more than two hundred years old.

If these other values are destructive of our own cherished values, are we not justified in fighting them both by intellectual means, that is by reason and argument, and criticism, and by legal means, by making sure the laws and constitution of the country are respected by all? It becomes a duty to defend those values that we would live by. But here western intellectuals have sadly failed in defending western values, such as rationalism, social pluralism, human rights, the rule of law, representative government, individualism (in the sense that every individual counts, and no individual should be sacrificed for some utopian future collective end), freedom of expression, freedom of and from religion, the rights of minorities, and so on..

Instead, the so-called experts on Islam in western universities, in the media, in the churches and even in government bureaus have become apologists for Islam. They bear some responsibility for creating an atmosphere little short of intellectual terrorism where any criticism of Islam is denounced as fascism, racism, or “orientalism.” They bear some responsibility for lulling the public into thinking that “The Islamic Threat ” is a myth. It is our duty to fight this intellectual terrorism. It is our duty to defend the values of liberal democracy.

One hopes that the U.S. government will not now act in such a way that more innocent lives are lost, albeit on the other side of the globe. One hopes that even now there is a legal way out in international courts of law. The situation is far more delicate and complex than a simple battle between good and evil, the solution is not to beat hell out of all Arabs and Muslims but neither is it to pretend that Islam had nothing to do with it, for that would be to bury one’s head in the Sands of Araby.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] T.Hughes, Dictionary of Islam, entry “Jihad”

[2] E.Sivan, Radical Islam, New haven, 1985, p.25.


secularIslam.org

[IlyaFurman]

wow Ive never seen a worst article in my life, facts distored, and changed, and its one non scholar person opinion.

whats the point?

[unbiased]

Umm...how was that a proof?

Your premise is incomplete, so your conclusion is wrong...

To prove that Islam does support terrorism, you need to provide quotes from the Islamic texts that state that civilians should be targeted and killed.

Otherwise what you posted is just a bunch of prejudicial hate...

It is not enough to show that Islam states that people who do not worship Islam will be killed...the new testament says the same thing about non-christians...that does not mean it is promoting the murder of civilians.

Please provide any complete quote from Islamic texts that state that it is ok to intentionally target civilians, then you will have your proof.

Look all you want...you won't find it.
Islam does not support terrorism. Islamic terrorists are sinning against their religion. It is quite clear.

Unbiased

Originally posted by abu afak
STATEMENT BY IBN WARRAQ ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ATROCITY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ibn Warraq is the author of 'Why I Am Not A Muslim'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART 1 of 2

Given the stupefying enormity of the acts of barbarism of 11 September, moral outrage is appropriate and justified, as are demands for punishment. But a civilized society cannot permit blind attacks on all those perceived as “Muslims” or Arabs. Not all Muslims or all Arabs are terrorists. Nor are they implicated in the horrendous events of Tuesday. Police protection for individual Muslims, mosques and other institutions must be increased.

However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with Terrorist Tuesday is to wilfully ignore the obvious and to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Usama bin Laden and his followers make little sense. The West needs to understand them in order to be able to deal with them and avoid past mistakes. We are confronted with Islamic terrorists and must take seriously the Islamic component. Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, do not understand the passionate, religious, and anti-western convictions of Islamic terrorists. These God-intoxicated fanatics blindly throw away their lives in return for the Paradise of Seventy Two Virgins offered Muslim martyrs killed in the Holy War against all infidels.

Jihad is “a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of the Prophet Muhammad [the Prophet]. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Qur’an and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims”[1].

The world is divided into two spheres, Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. The latter, the Land of Warfare, is a country belonging to infidels which has not been subdued by Islam. The Dar al-Harb becomes the Dar-al Islam, the Land of Islam, upon the promulgation of the edicts of Islam. Thus the totalitarian nature of Islam is nowhere more apparent than in the concept of Jihad, the Holy War, whose ultimate aim is to conquer the entire world and submit it to the one true faith, to the law of Allah. To Islam alone has been granted the truth: there is no possibility of salvation outside it. Muslims must fight and kill in the name of Allah.

We read (IX. 5-6):“Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them”;

IV.76: “Those who believe fight in the cause of God”;

VIII.39-42: “Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.”

Those who die fighting for the only true religion, Islam, will be amply rewarded in the life to come:

IV.74: “Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God’s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.”

What should we make with these further unfortunate verses from the Qur’an:

*Torment to Non-believers->IV.56
*Only Islam Acceptable-> III.85
* No friends from outsiders->III.118
*No friends with Jews, christians->V. 51
* No friends with non believers->IV.144, III.28
* No friends with parents/siblings if not believers->IX.23
* Fight non-believers->IX.123 * Kill non-believers->IV.89
*Anti Jewish verses->V.82
* God a "plotter"->VIII.30
*Killing Idolators->IX.5
* Idolators are unclean just because they are idolator->IX.28
* Forcing non-believers to pay tax->IX.29
* The Torment of Hell->XLIV.43-58
* All except Muslims/Jews/Christians/Sabeans will go to hell->II.62, V.69
* Cast terror in the hearts, smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers->VIII.12
* Smite the neck of unbelievers->XLVII.4
* Severe Punishment for atheists->X.4 ; V.10 ; V.86
* Severe Punishment for non-believers->XXII.19-22 ; LXXII.23, XCVIII.6
*Punishing non-believers of Hereafter->XVII.10
* Punishing for rejecting faith->III.91
* Non believers go to hell->IV.140 ; VII.36 * Partial Believers go to hell too->IV.150-1
* Sadistic punishments->LVI.42-43
* Punishment for apostates->XVI.106 ; III.86-88 ; III.90 ; IV.137.
* Threat of punishement for not going to war->IX.38-39, XLVIII.16
*God making someone more sinful so he can be punished more->III178
*Intentionally preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth->VI.25 ; VI.110
* Intentionally preventing unbelievers from Understanding Quran->XVII.45-46
* It is God who causes people to err and He punishes them for that->XVII.97
* God could guide, if he chose to, but did not->VI.35
* Intentionally misguiding those whom he pleases to->XIV.4
* Willfully misguiding some->XVI.93
* God causes human to err->IV.143 ; VII.178
* God deceiving humans->IV.142

It is surely time for us who live in the West and enjoy freedom of expression to examine unflinchingly and unapologetically the tenets of these fanatics, including the Qur’an which divinely sanctions violence. We should unapologetically examine the life of the Prophet, who was not above political assassinations, and who was responsible for the massacre of the Jews.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
wow Ive never seen a worst article in my life, facts distored, and changed, and its one non scholar person opinion.

whats the point?

Funny Ilya, I put up a long 2 part post and you say facts are distorted and changed ....... and yet

YOU CAN'T POINT TO ONE..
(and even if you could it would be just 1 from Dozens from a Former Muslim who understands the religion quite well... certainly better than you)

Ilya, Do you just like to put up posts in bunches?

Please take a few moments next time to put some meat on your meager bone.. answers like "No", "it's Distorted", and/or "Zionist site", are INadequate.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by unbiased


It is not enough to show that Islam states that people who do not worship Islam will be killed...the new testament says the same thing about non-christians...that does not mean it is promoting the murder of civilians.

unbiased, reread what you just wrote, You have proved that you are determined to defend Islam no matter what.

Let's assume that Jewish, Christian, and Islamic holy scriptures all say those who do not worship their specific religion will be killed. Judaism and Christianity have evolved through the efforts of Maimonides and Aquinas, and the Renaissance, Reformation, and Enlightment. Only tiny sects within Judaism and Christianity believe that what was written thousands of years ago must be taken literally and followed to the letter.

Contrast that to Islam. The only "true" Islam is 7th century Islam. There are very, very few Muslims who even believe in separation of church and state. There are hoards of Islamic leaders, however, who denounce any Muslim who tries to modernize Islam. In fact, they issue death threats against them.

Instead of hiding behind abstractions, look at today's Muslim countries and today's Judeo-Christian nations. Can you honestly claim that Muslims have the same attachment to democracy, to individual freedom, and even to life? Can you honestly say that the Muslim world is as honest, fair-minded, and tolerant as the Judeo-Christian world?

Unless you are determined to wear blinders, you cannot help but see that Muslim countries stand out for their use of the most brutal and disproportionate punishments. Beheading adulterers, chopping off the hands of thieves, stoning to death out-of-wedlock mothers, and blowing up "settlers" are examples of barbarism from the Dark Ages.

Islam is in desparate need of modernization. Because a large minority of Muslims perpetrate, support, and celebrate mass murder. No unbiased, you can't compare the Inquisition to today's Islam, because you would be comparing Christianity of 500 years ago to Islam of today.

It isn't up to us to provide a "quote" that proves Islam requires terrorism. It is up to you to provide evidence that the majority of Muslim leaders understand that killing civilian women, children, and elderly on purpose is profound evil, and are working to stop it rather than erecting elaborate lies to excuse it.

[unbiased]

Hi Ibrodsky,

No offense...but what the heck are you talking about?

Why is any of that up to me?

The original post stated that he was providing some logial proof that Islam supports terrorism.
If one defines terrorism as the murder of civilians, then clearly since the quo'ran specifically says that muslims should not intentionally target civilians, it is clearly opposed to terrorism.

I don't have to prove anything about any muslim. I have no responsibility towards them. If they want to go against their religion and support terrorism - they will burn in hell according to their own religion - it is not up to me to prove anything.

Why do you think it is up to me to provide any evidence that muslim leaders are not promoting terrorism?
I really don't care - their religion tells them it is a sin to support terrorism, yet some still do it. What is your point?
I don't defend terrorism, all I am doing is pointing out that Islam the religion does not support terrorism either.

I did not make a logical proof saying "muslims do not support terrorism" or "muslim nations do not support terrorism". Clearly many do - that I why I made the proof to demonstrate how they were sinning against their religion.

Unbiased

Originally posted by ibrodsky

It isn't up to us to provide a "quote" that proves Islam requires terrorism. It is up to you to provide evidence that the majority of Muslim leaders understand that killing civilian women, children, and elderly on purpose is profound evil, and are working to stop it rather than erecting elaborate lies to excuse it.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by unbiased
Hi Ibrodsky,

No offense...but what the heck are you talking about?

...I did not make a logical proof saying "muslims do not support terrorism" or "muslim nations do not support terrorism". Clearly many do - that I why I made the proof to demonstrate how they were sinning against their religion.

Unbiased

Well, it's great that you defend the paper version of Islam. The rest of us have to deal with Islam as interpreted by Muslims in today's real world.

There are quotes that suggest Islam prohibits terrorism. There are also quotes that suggest it supports terrorism. You admit as much when you say "It is not enough to show that Islam states that people who do not worship Islam will be killed."

If that isn't enough, what is? Are you serious???

I know of no other religion in which the concept of "jihad" plays such a central role. I know of no other religion in which people can act on intolerant statements made hundreds of years ago and meet so little resistance from their co-religionists.

[unbiased]

Listen Ibrodsky,

1)Don't you hear all the time, some crazy terrorist like osama saying some psychotic thing like "with the help of allah we will kill americans and jews and other civilians that support them"?

Or people saying "allah is great" as they blow up 2 year old children?

Or "allah said that we should kill all jews whether they are civilians or not"?

hhhmmm?

They do it all the time!
So they and their victims start to think that Islam condones the killing of civilians.
It DOES NOT - period. A true muslim is supposed to follow all the teachings of their religion. If it says somewhere "do not kill women and children" or do not intentionally kill civilians - then it does not matter what the rest says, if you do what it tells you not do to, then you are a sinner.

2) just because a religion says that non-believers will be killed that does NOT have to mean that the people of the religion have the right to go out and kill civilians - why do you think they are the same? You are thinking with as little thought as the terrorists, and those who support them.
-The new testament says that people who don't believe in jesus as the savior will burn in hell - does that mean that christianity promotes terrorism? Of course not. It is not any different with Islam. The difference is that alot of muslims abuse their religion and or don't understand what they are reading, and for some reason feel that Islam says it is ok to kill civilians.
It does NOT. Islam does not say such a thing - it is the muslims that are acting evil, it is not the religion that is promoting terrorism.
Most of the quotes about killing non-muslims in the quo'ran are implying that it is up to allah to do that at judgement day, NOT that it is up to some psychopath to tape explosives to his chest and blow up a bus filled with school children.

3) Islam does not support terrorism, but ignorant Muslims do.
There within lies the problem, and it is not up to me to solve them.
If they can be taught the truth about the teachings of their religion, then we will all be better off.
If you blame their religion for the action of those who trangress their religion, then you are indeed fighting a war against Islam, and NOT the war against terrorism.
There is a difference.
The war against terrorism is about stopping psychopaths who abuse Islam, and sin against their scriptures in order to blow up civilians. It is not about misunderstanding Islam and blaming the religion for the action of some of its crazy, evil, sinful followers.

4) jihad does not just mean war...it is sorta the everyday battle with life that muslims are to face as they try to worship islam faithfully.
And just so you know, it is a sin for an individual, like crazy osama, to declare a jihad against a foreign people - he is once again transgressing the teachings of Islam.

Are you understanding my point?

Unbiased

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Well, it's great that you defend the paper version of Islam. The rest of us have to deal with Islam as interpreted by Muslims in today's real world.

There are quotes that suggest Islam prohibits terrorism. There are also quotes that suggest it supports terrorism. You admit as much when you say "It is not enough to show that Islam states that people who do not worship Islam will be killed."

If that isn't enough, what is? Are you serious???

I know of no other religion in which the concept of "jihad" plays such a central role. I know of no other religion in which people can act on intolerant statements made hundreds of years ago and meet so little resistance from their co-religionists.

[Blueprint]

So they and their victims start to think that Islam condones the killing of civilians.
It DOES NOT - period

But did you not just say that it is "not enough to point out that Islam states that non-believers should be killed", or something along that line? Now, since you said it was "not enough", and not "false", I am assuming this is true.

Now, the last time I checked, there were billions of non-Muslims. And many of these people are civilians. Now, if something condones the killing of every non-Muslims, and many of these people are civilians, is it not condoning the killing of civlians?

[abu afak]

Originally posted by Blueprint
But did you not just say that it is "not enough to point out that Islam states that non-believers should be killed", or something along that line? Now, since you said it was "not enough", and not "false", I am assuming this is true.

Now, the last time I checked, there were billions of non-Muslims. And many of these people are civilians. Now, if something condones the killing of every non-Muslims, and many of these people are civilians, is it not condoning the killing of civlians?

The Koran Contradicts itself Many Times in Many Regards.

The Koran Says: Sura 9:5 [Infidels and conversion]: "Kill those who join other gods with God [polytheists/Christians] wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them ... ... And many other such passages as the 2 Dozen listed in Warraq's essay.
It speaks of Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb (peace in those lands that are completeley islamic, and War in those that are not)

Look at the World. Non-Muslims, especially Christians, are being killed By Muslims Just because they Are Christian across the whole Globe. (Millions in North Africa ie Sudan/Nigeria etc etc To the MidEast where Christians are an endangered specie (Israel is Just a Tiny spot on the 'Islamic Frontline'), to Asia where fun is just starting, with only a many Thousands dead.. Indeed, I can barely think of a place where Islam touches another religion where there Isn't War.. Hell, we just interrupted the Afghans killing Each other..
and
150,000 are dead in Algerian intra-Islamic fighting...

Eritrea/Ethiopea

2 million Christians killed in Sudan and 4 million displaced by the Muslim north

Nigeria, a mini Sudan

Egypt, the persecution of the Copts

Also more Islamic violence in Chad, Kenya and the latest the Ivory Coast... Mauritania too..

Of Course Hundreds of Thousands of Kurds have been killed or Cleansed by Iraq, Turkey, Syrian and Iran by their own Islamic Brothers. (that's another Topic I will post on here... What about the KURDS, the worlds largest Ethnic group without a state, with it's own language and culture, UNlike the Palestinians)

India/Pak/Kashmir?

Of course the Balkans/Kosovo... Armenia/Azerbijan ... Chechnya, Ingushetia . ..

This Listing is getting Silly... Why doesn't someone who really thinks Islam is Peaceful tell me where they AREN'T Fighting...

Seems Ibn Warraq's experienced reading of the Koran is the same one Today's Muslims ARE reading... NOT unbiased's one..

Also, Please see my Posts initiating other strings:

"Killing Christians" (Just because they are Christian and NOT isolated events), and ...
"Of Course the great Majority of Muslims are peaceful, blah blah " .. But at the very least the vast majority looks the other way.

And is Osama's butchery condemned or seen as 'unIslamic' by the Majority of Arabs/Muslims??? NO

Even in 'moderate' Indonesia they couldn't arrest Abu Bakar Bashir (Jemaah Islamiyah/ Bali Bombings) for fear of Unrest or even civil war...

Now 'unbiased', far be it from you to tell today's Genocidal Moslems and their Majority of Condoners how to read the Koran.

Ibn Warraq is correct.

[unbiased]

Killed by allah on judgement day....not by anyone else...

Killed by jesus on judgement day...not by anyone else...

same thing.

shesh!

Unbiased

Originally posted by Blueprint
But did you not just say that it is "not enough to point out that Islam states that non-believers should be killed", or something along that line? Now, since you said it was "not enough", and not "false", I am assuming this is true.

Now, the last time I checked, there were billions of non-Muslims. And many of these people are civilians. Now, if something condones the killing of every non-Muslims, and many of these people are civilians, is it not condoning the killing of civlians?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by unbiased
Killed by allah on judgement day....not by anyone else...

Killed by jesus on judgement day...not by anyone else...

same thing.

shesh!

Unbiased

So in that case it's just fine and dandy?

Today, only a small minority of Christians believe such nonsense. Most live in the modern world and understand that religion is based on faith. And Judaism rejects, outright, the notion that all non-Jews are damned.

Unfortunately, much of the Islamic world still lives in the 7th century. They reject universal principles which they see as merely western customs such as separation of church and state, religious tolerance, freedom of speech, and governments founded on democracy, separation of powers, and due process.

To wit, it should come as no surprise that many of today's Muslims feel that in putting non-Muslims to the sword they are merely speeding up the process of doing what Allah has aready proclaimed must happen.

I noticed a thread at ummah.com in which Moslems basically said that Allah forgives all sins except one: ascribing a partner (Messiah) to him. It does not take a genius to see that this leads to the conclusion that Christians and Jews are all lost souls who must be punished. While it may be a sin to kill them now, at least it is a forgivable sin -- unlike the sin they commit of ascribing a partner to God which, according to their religion, can never be forgiven.

Sorry, unbiased, but some of us simply don't accept the idea that believers in other religions (or no religion, for that matter) deserve to be persecuted -- whether now or later. And it's clear that many Muslims feel Islam justifies persecuting them now, and very few others are convinced it is their duty to fight them.

The bottom line: your interpretation of Islam doesn't really matter. It's how Muslims interpret their religion that counts.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by unbiased
Listen Ibrodsky,

1)Don't you hear all the time, some crazy terrorist like osama saying some psychotic thing like "with the help of allah we will kill americans and jews and other civilians that support them"?

Or people saying "allah is great" as they blow up 2 year old children?

Or "allah said that we should kill all jews whether they are civilians or not"?

hhhmmm?

They do it all the time!
So they and their victims start to think that Islam condones the killing of civilians.
It DOES NOT - period. A true muslim is supposed to follow all the teachings of their religion. If it says somewhere "do not kill women and children" or do not intentionally kill civilians - then it does not matter what the rest says, if you do what it tells you not do to, then you are a sinner.

2) just because a religion says that non-believers will be killed that does NOT have to mean that the people of the religion have the right to go out and kill civilians - why do you think they are the same? You are thinking with as little thought as the terrorists, and those who support them.
-The new testament says that people who don't believe in jesus as the savior will burn in hell - does that mean that christianity promotes terrorism? Of course not. It is not any different with Islam. The difference is that alot of muslims abuse their religion and or don't understand what they are reading, and for some reason feel that Islam says it is ok to kill civilians.
It does NOT. Islam does not say such a thing - it is the muslims that are acting evil, it is not the religion that is promoting terrorism.
Most of the quotes about killing non-muslims in the quo'ran are implying that it is up to allah to do that at judgement day, NOT that it is up to some psychopath to tape explosives to his chest and blow up a bus filled with school children.

3) Islam does not support terrorism, but ignorant Muslims do.
There within lies the problem, and it is not up to me to solve them.
If they can be taught the truth about the teachings of their religion, then we will all be better off.
If you blame their religion for the action of those who trangress their religion, then you are indeed fighting a war against Islam, and NOT the war against terrorism.
There is a difference.
The war against terrorism is about stopping psychopaths who abuse Islam, and sin against their scriptures in order to blow up civilians. It is not about misunderstanding Islam and blaming the religion for the action of some of its crazy, evil, sinful followers.

4) jihad does not just mean war...it is sorta the everyday battle with life that muslims are to face as they try to worship islam faithfully.
And just so you know, it is a sin for an individual, like crazy osama, to declare a jihad against a foreign people - he is once again transgressing the teachings of Islam.

Are you understanding my point?

Unbiased

Ok ok, Osama Bin Laden is a bad guy.

So why did "normal" Muslims cheered in the street for the 9/11 events?
Why is Osama Bin Laden considered hero among 99% of Muslims?
If Koraan prohibits killing innocent why all Islamic authorities agreed that suicide bombing is ok?
If Osama Bin Laden doesn't represent the majority of Muslims, why is all Muslims praising him in all their chat forums?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
So why did "normal" Muslims cheered in the street for the 9/11 events?
Why is Osama Bin Laden considered hero among 99% of Muslims?
If Koraan prohibits killing innocent why all Islamic authorities agreed that suicide bombing is ok?
If Osama Bin Laden doesn't represent the majority of Muslims, why is all Muslims praising him in all their chat forums?

THOSE GUYS THAT CELEBTRATE ARE STUPID, ABOUT 400 MUSLIMS DIED IN WTC, DID YOU KNOW THAT OR CHOOSE TO IGNORE THAT???

DO YOU KNOW OSAMA IS PRAISED BY ALL OF EUROPE AND LATIN AMERICA AND ASIA, even in non muslim countries.