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Thread: Islamic NATIONS Slaughter, Enslave Christians

  1. #1
    abu afak
    Guest

    Islamic NATIONS Slaughter, Enslave Christians

    December 16, 2001
    by Tom Barrett Editor@ConservativeTruth.org

    THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians. (See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.) This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.

    I spent hours going through the well-documented profiles of the forty-six countries listed in the report mentioned above. Of these, six did not have significant Muslim populations. Of the thirty-nine with a strong Muslim majority, only seven could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities. If the United States were to treat its roughly two million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified. Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?

    The laws of most of these Islamic nations give lip service to religious freedom. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most of the countries I researched, the death penalty was common for converting from Islam to Christianity (or any other religion). Christians receive no protection from these governments when they are persecuted; indeed, most often the governments themselves are the persecutors. Children of Christians are stolen from their parents so that they can be raised as Muslims. Speaking about Christianity to a Muslim can result in beatings, long prison sentences and even death.

    The most urgent situation demanding our attention today is in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population of any non-Arab country. There Islamic fundamentalists have promised a bloodbath of Christians before Christmas. This is no idle threat; in 1996 Islamic fundamentalists slaughtered 3,000 Christians in East Timor. More recently, a group called Laskar Jihad, which hails Osama bin Laden as its hero, slaughtered thousands of Christians with the help of government troops. (See "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia" in the Resources section.) An Indonesian military officer is quoted as saying that the government has the power to stop the Jihad, but government officials "all the way to the top" profit from it. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate every Christian in Indonesia or force them to leave. According to Steven Snyder, the president of International Christian Concern who visited Indonesia in November, about 15,000 Laskar Jihad troops equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and bulldozers are threatening to kill 50,000 Christians and destroy their homes and churches in the next week.

    In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery or murdered for no other crime than naming the Name of Christ. Over two million have been murdered, and 200,000 have been sold into slavery by their government. An organization named Christian Solidarity International (PLEASE visit C.S.I.’s website listed in Resources Section) has raised money to buy almost 60,000 slaves from their captors and free them. One 22-year-old Protestant girl, a virgin, was captured by government soldiers and raped repeatedly for five days as she was marched through the jungle tied to twenty other slaves. Many women and children died during this march. She was then used as a slave and forced to study Islam until bought out of slavery by C.S.I. You can read her complete story and those of other slaves at http://www.csi-int.ch/csi-trp/csi-trp_0003a.htm (scroll down to section IV, item B).

    What about our "allies"? You can dress a monster up in a pinstriped suit, teach him to speak formally and use the right fork at state dinners, and put him in a group of diplomats for for a photo opportunity, but that doesn’t make him civilized. Our "friends" in the international community, including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, and our most recent buddy, Pakistan, are all guilty of atrocities against Christians based on nothing other than their profession of faith. Let me emphasize that we are not talking about a radical minority of citizens acting on their own. We are talking about systematic state persecution, state murder and state crimes against humanity, all legal according to the various constitutions and laws of these vicious nations.

    Let’s start with our "friend and ally," Saudi Arabia. Their "Constitution" is the Koran. This nation, whose population is 98% Muslim, finances Islamic terrorist groups in moderate Islamic nations which force conversion to Islam under the threat of death. In Saudi Arabia, rape is punishable by death- unless it is a Muslim man violating a Christian woman. The Saudis are so rich from their oil that most refuse to do common labor, so they import six million foreign workers. Of these, ten percent are Christians. They are not allowed to wear a cross in public and or to celebrate Christmas, but are forced to observe Ramadan. Christians, even tourists, have been arrested by the Religious Police for participating in prayer meetings in private homes. Any who speak of their faith publicly are tortured in an attempt to convert them to Islam. Those who refuse are executed. Punishment for distributing Bibles can range from lashes with a whip or amputation of a limb, to beheading.

    Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim. Recently, eight Americans were arrested in Turkey for the "crime" of giving away copies of the New Testament. In 1974 Turkey overran Cyprus - which is 80% Christian - and has ruled that small nation with an iron fist since then. The Turkish government expelled thousands of Orthodox Christians, then took a thousand-year-old monastery and turned it into a mosque! Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.

    Egypt, described by our State Department as a "friend of the United States" is one of the worst persecutors of Christians. In Cairo an entire Christian neighborhood was set on fire by Islamic terrorists. Children were thrown out of windows in front of their horrified parents, churches were burned and Christian’s homes destroyed. This went on for two days without the government doing anything to stop it. Egyptian security forces have been accused by eye-witnesses of raping, then crucifying adolescent girls.

    In Pakistan recently a 14-year-old Christian girl was kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, then raped and given to a Muslim to be one of his wives. The pleas of her parents were ignored by the police. In 1997, Islamic extremists, aided by Pakistani police, destroyed the homes of 800 Christians as well as thirteen churches, because they had "insulted Islam." A few weeks ago six children and nine adults were gunned down as they worshiped in a Christian church. This terrorist nation is our newest "ally" in the war against terrorism.

    The Libyan government took a Christian Cathedral and converted it to a mosque. In Kuwait, the nation America’s military saved from a brutal occupation by Iraq, the government tries to bribe Christians to convert to Islam. A Kuwaiti Christian was recently condemned to die by the religious court for converting from Islam. It should come as no surprise that 150,000 Christians have fled Iraq to avoid persecution. Over 150 Christian churches have been demolished in Iraq, where death is the penalty for proclaiming faith in Christ, and where Saddam Hussein has proclaimed himself "The Defender of the Islamic Faith."

    Hundreds of Christian missionaries have been murdered in Algeria and other Islamic nations. Iran pretends to have religious freedom, but students in all schools are forced to study Islam, as are draftees in their military services. Conversion to any religion other than Islam brings a swift death sentence. If space permitted, I could give hundreds of other examples of atrocities committed by Muslims against Christians simply because of their faith. The events I have described are happening as you read this. Christians are being tortured today because they will not convert to Islam. Christians are dying today because they dare to speak the Name of Christ.

    Our President has stated repeatedly that Islam is a peaceful religion which has "been hijacked by radicals." I know why he makes that statement. If Bush said anything else, he would be labeled a hate-monger, as I am sure I will be for speaking the truth. The facts speak for themselves. Do the research, as I have done. Eighty-three percent of the governments of nations with a Muslim majority kill, enslave, and persecute Christians with the blessings (and very often, the complicity) of their Islamic clergy. I’m sure that there are many kind, loving Muslims who live in those countries. I just wonder why they allow such atrocities to be committed in the name of their religion.

    Most of you who have written to me about the goodness and kindness of Muslims know only Muslims who live in this country. They have been influenced by the values of America, which include tolerance toward other religions, values based on the Bible. Many U.S. Muslim immigrants are as horrified as we are by the actions of Muslims in the countries of their birth (see the letter from a subscriber on this subject following the Resources section)..."

    http://www.conservativetruth.org/arc...12-16-01.shtml
    Last edited by abu afak; 08-30-2003 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #2
    andak01
    Guest

    Re: Islamic NATIONS Slaughter, Enslave Christians

    Originally posted by abu afak
    [B]December 16, 2001
    by Tom Barrett Editor@ConservativeTruth.org

    THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED.
    Outside of the Vatican City, there is not Christian theocratic nation on earth. In every case where there has been a Christian theocracy and there were Muslims, those Muslims were persecuted, assuming they lived long enough.

    Oh and I guess Bosnia doesn't count because that's so far in the past, it'll never happen again. Right.

    http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljust...2002/0114m.htm
    `I didn't know because I could not believe that people could do such things,'' Milosevic said, referring to the Nazi-style camps where thousands of Muslims and Croats were tortured and killed.
    http://www.islamonline.net/english/N...rticle21.shtml

    Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians. (See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.)
    Of course this 83% figure sticks in the head as the author goes on to detail things that don't happen in anywhere near 83% of those nations.

    This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries.
    In how many states? 83%?

    If anything, it can be said that these countries are backwards, because they have only now arrived at the level of intolerance that was used against them during the colonial period. Their grandparents children were often kidnapped or forced to go to Christian missionary schools and recite Catholic or Episcopal prayers. The Conquistadors and the Inquisition burned people alive when they refused to convert. So, these people are only now equalling the attrocities of the Christians of centuries past. It was condemnable when the Christians did it then and it is condemnable now.
    http://www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/ar...oir%5B%5D=9799
    Kertzer shows how the nineteenth-century popes countenanced forcible conversion, often in the most cruel of circumstances involving little children, the confinement of Jews in the ghettos of the papal territories in Italy, and the public humiliation and restrictions on Jewish life about which even the Austrian chancellor Metternich complained to the pope – and this at a time when virtually the entire rest of the world was moving to some measure of tolerance if not full equality.

    Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.
    A statement that is impossible to prove.
    http://www.fiqh.net/peace/islamandterror.htm

    Of the thirty-nine with a strong Muslim majority, only seven could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities.

    If the United States were to treat its roughly two million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified. Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?
    Why of course, the same could be said if we treated our people like China, Haiti, the Phillipines, Cambodia, Bolivia. Human rights issues need to be addressed wherever they are found, not just in nations that have oil.

    In most of the countries I researched, the death penalty was common for converting from Islam to Christianity (or any other religion).
    Please tell me more about this. I don't see any coroberating evidence in the article, and this is an extremely serious charge.

    Children of Christians are stolen from their parents so that they can be raised as Muslims.
    You mean like this?
    http://www.randomhouse.com/vintage/read/kidnapping/
    At nightfall one June evening in 1858, a knock sounds at the door of a Jewish family in Bologna, Italy, then part of the Papal States. The dumbfounded couple, Momolo and Marianna Mortara, find a phalanx of police awaiting them. Their fright turns to panic when the police chief announces that he has been ordered to take away their six-year-old son, Edgardo. "You have been betrayed," he tells them. Someone, he says, has secretly baptized the boy, and now that the boy is Christian, he cannot remain with Jewish parents.

    Christian Solidarity International
    A defunct NGO, condemned for its practice of encouraging slavery by proferring money to anyone who can produce slaves. An organization that is in the palm of the SPLA, an army that used to kidnap 12 year olds and send them to battle. An organization that is in the palms of the Dinka tribe, who keep their arms trading money in Switzerland. An organization that is also in the palm of the CIA in their quest to retain the oil from the Sudan pipeline.

    We are talking about systematic state persecution, state murder and state crimes against humanity, all legal according to the various constitutions and laws of these vicious nations.
    Yes, that's true. Why do we sell arms to men like Bin Laden and Saddam, only to later decide that they are monsters. Why do we back the Marcos and the Pinoches of the world???

    Their "Constitution" is the Koran.
    This is technically not true. Both the Qur'an and the Sunnah are necessary for the law of any Shari'a state. Both are mentioned in article one of the Saudi Constitution. The fact that I can quote from the Constitution suggests that it IS separate from the Qur'an.
    http://www.the-saudi.net/saudi-arabi...nstitution.htm

    This nation, whose population is 98% Muslim, finances Islamic terrorist groups in moderate Islamic nations which force conversion to Islam under the threat of death.
    Of course, we need to take his word for this, since no proof is proferred.

    In Saudi Arabia, rape is punishable by death- unless it is a Muslim man violating a Christian woman.
    Ibid.

    The Saudis are so rich from their oil that most refuse to do common labor, so they import six million foreign workers. Of these, ten percent are Christians. They are not allowed to wear a cross in public and or to celebrate Christmas, but are forced to observe Ramadan.
    Forced to fast? I don't think so. But I have American contacts working in Saudi that I can ask about this lie.

    Christians, even tourists, have been arrested by the Religious Police for participating in prayer meetings in private homes. Any who speak of their faith publicly are tortured in an attempt to convert them to Islam. Those who refuse are executed.
    This one is really good. They are tortured and executed, but somehow we know about this, how? They lived long enough to talk?

    Punishment for distributing Bibles can range from lashes with a whip or amputation of a limb, to beheading.
    This much I believe is true, but I don't have details.

    Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim. Recently, eight Americans were arrested in Turkey for the "crime" of giving away copies of the New Testament. In 1974 Turkey overran Cyprus - which is 80% Christian - and has ruled that small nation with an iron fist since then. The Turkish government expelled thousands of Orthodox Christians, then took a thousand-year-old monastery and turned it into a mosque! Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.
    That happened many times in Bosnia.
    http://www.unmibh.org/news/projects/relsites.asp
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2001/5570.htm
    http://gbgm-umc.org/photos/europe/9816313m.stm
    In December 2000, the Human Rights Chamber concluded that local authorities in Bijelina prevented reconstruction of five mosques that were destroyed in 1993 and allowed buildings to be constructed on two of the former mosque sites, a parking lot on one, and flea markets on the remaining two. RS authorities ignored an order by the Chamber in 1999 to halt construction on one site. The Chamber ordered that permits be granted for reconstruction of the five mosques. No action by the authorities was taken by the end of the period covered by this report.

    The Libyan government took a Christian Cathedral and converted it to a mosque.
    What happens to a mosque in an area where there are no more worshippers?
    http://www.beograd.org.yu/english/up...eligija/islam/
    Built around 1690 as one of 80 mosques and masjids, that have existed in Belgrade in the Turkish times. Originally, its name was Èohadži-mosque, after the endower Hajji-Ali, a cloth merchant. It is a single-spaced building with dome and minaret. During Austrian rule (1717-1739) it was turned into a Catholic church..

    And when there were Muslims again, the mosque was returned to its original state. There are very few Christians living in Libya. When enough do live there, either a Church will be built or it will occupy the site of another building, probably a house of worship or a mosque.

  3. #3
    andak01
    Guest
    Over 150 Christian churches have been demolished in Iraq, where death is the penalty for proclaiming faith in Christ, and where Saddam Hussein has proclaimed himself "The Defender of the Islamic Faith."
    Yeah and Cromwell and Cortez were the Defenders of Christianity.
    http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/038/3.html
    In September 1290 King Sancho IV, son of Alphonso X of Castile, ordered a poll-tax (Padron>/I>) on the Jews in his dominion, based on a poll (capitacÃÂon), which was to replenish the Castilian coffers before embarking, following on his farther's steps, in the conquest of the port city of Tarifa from the Moors. The tax assessed by Sancho IV, modeled after his father's formula, was in two parts : a) for services, and b) head tax. The following table lists the amounts of taxation on Jews in the various archbishoprics. The royal decree which can be found in the Archives of the Cathedral of Toledo appointed leaders of Jewish communities to collect the tax. The poll-tax was 3 gold maravedis per adult male.

    So the Christian King of Spain made Dimmis out of the Jews, interesting.

    Iran pretends to have religious freedom, but students in all schools are forced to study Islam, as are draftees in their military services.
    This of course serves the 90+% of the population that is Muslim. Nobody thinks anything of our own Christian teaching in the schools, a practice that was alive at least till my grandmother's generation. And how does this compare to Catholic Spain? Do Spanish children get a Christian education?

    Conversion to any religion other than Islam brings a swift death sentence. If space permitted, I could give hundreds of other examples of atrocities committed by Muslims against Christians simply because of their faith.
    Obviously space doesn't permit any details, dates, times or places for the events alledged so far.

    Our President has stated repeatedly that Islam is a peaceful religion which has "been hijacked by radicals." I know why he makes that statement. If Bush said anything else, he would be labeled a hate-monger, as I am sure I will be for speaking the truth.
    No, that's Ok, just don't attempt this type of language against any other religion besides Islam. THEN, you will be labled a hate-monger.

    I’m sure that there are many kind, loving Muslims who live in those countries. I just wonder why they allow such atrocities to be committed in the name of their religion.
    Same reason any people under brutal dictatorships allow attrocities to exist. They fear for their lives. Normally, we feel pity for those types (viz. Tienamen Square, Tibet), but in this case, since they are Muslim, we point to them as the problem.

    Most of you who have written to me about the goodness and kindness of Muslims know only Muslims who live in this country. They have been influenced by the values of America, which include tolerance toward other religions, values based on the Bible. Many U.S. Muslim immigrants are as horrified as we are by the actions of Muslims in the countries of their birth (see the letter from a subscriber on this subject following the Resources section)..."
    I don't happen to fall into that category. I have met good and bad Muslims in every place I have travelled.

  4. #4
    Mercury
    Guest
    Originally posted by andak01
    Yeah and Cromwell and Cortez were the Defenders of Christianity.
    Just out of interest -
    I understand by mentioning Cortez you refer to the capture of Aztec empire. What about Cromwell (if it's Oliver and not other Cromwells that you talk about)? Had he any specific contacts with non-christians? I thought there were none in England at the time.

  5. #5
    abu afak
    Guest
    Cromwell? Cortez? King Alphonso, 1290!? LOL -- This is the 21st Century, and for andak have to drag up those Early Historical events to compare to TODAY'S Islam only Proves my point.
    Last edited by abu afak; 08-30-2003 at 07:41 PM.

  6. #6
    abu afak
    Guest
    error
    Last edited by abu afak; 04-27-2004 at 09:56 PM.

  7. #7
    judicial meanz
    Guest
    Didnt some Islamic radicals say they wanted to get rid of the Saturday people first, then the Sunday people?

  8. #8
    andak01
    Guest
    Originally posted by abu afak
    Cromwell? Cortez? King Alphonso, 1290!? LOL -- This is the 21st Century, and for andak have to drag up those Early Historical events to compare to TODAY'S Islam only Proves my point.
    Well I do in fact have to go back a ways to find a Christian theocracy to compare with modern Muslim ones or a Christian theocracy at all. But to find kidnappings and forced conversions to Catholicism, only a little over a century. And to find genocide, the blood in Bosnia is barely dried.

    Even if we look at the worst most violent periods in Christianity, we see that they were not universal or monolithic and that we (humans) weathered the storm. And contrary to what is said, Christianity in toto has not been reformed. There are still Copts and Othodox sects that haven't changed the way they worship a bit.

    Neither is Islam a monolith. There are the Sunnis and the Shiites and the Ismaelis, the Kasharites, the Sufis etc. They don't all get along and they certainly don't have the same aims and goals.

  9. #9
    Mercury
    Guest
    So what about Cromwell?

  10. #10
    andak01
    Guest
    I use Cromwell as an example, because like the Taliban, he was a violent iconoclast. Wales is littered with the remains of cathedrals and monasteries he destroyed. The insides of protestant churches with their plain white walls remind me of the Saudi 'restorations' (plastering over) of ancient mosques that I visited while in Morocco. And comparing Islamic Tauheed with the Protestant disdain for Saints is another parallel. Any relic relating to the Christian saints was destroyed during the Protestant purges and the Wahhabbis and Almohads busied themselves with the distruction of the Kubbas or Saint's tombs.

  11. #11
    abu afak
    Guest
    Originally posted by andak01
    Neither is Islam a monolith.
    Yes .. Islam is "Not a Monolith"

    It is However, a Violent Pandemic.

    From Mauritania to Mindanao.
    Last edited by abu afak; 02-24-2003 at 01:25 PM.

  12. #12
    andak01
    Guest
    Do you mean by that that one can find examples of hate crimes committed by Muslims in all those places? But if I bring up the point that hate crimes and intolerance are practiced by others, I'm 'you-tooing'. If I don't bring it up, I'm 'in denial' or worse (your words) a 'lying JERK'. If I try to mention anything good done by Muslims, I'm like a Nazi sympathizer or a 'self-hating Jew'. If I don't, 'the silence is deafening'. If I mention hate crimes against Muslims, that's a 'red herring' and I'm 'pretending to be the victim'. If I don't, you can continue to insinuate that only Muslims commit hate crimes and genocide and...you name it, we are the inventors of all evil. How do you explain that all of the evils we are charged with were committed before the birth of Mohammed (SAW) and are still committed by people of every religion on earth? It's amazing that Islam is the only religion on earth not allowed to have sinners. When we do something good, it's in spite of ourselves and when we do something bad it's because of our religion. But when a group of Christians kills 950+ people in the jungle in the name of Christ, that's different somehow. When an army called the Lord's Resistance Army rampages in the name of the Bible, that's different. When the KKK posts verses from the Bible on their website to justify racism, that's different from when a Palestinian site posts verses from the Qur'an to justify racism. When the Lord's Resistance Army and the SPLA enslave children to fight for them, that's different from when the INF does it. Christians can have aberrant sects, but not Muslims? OK. After all, we all look alike.

  13. #13
    abu afak
    Guest
    One can find isolated or Historical examples of violence by other religions.
    It is however, dishonest, and your habit, to not acknowledge Islam is doing it systematically, worldwide, and doing it Now; Unlike and unmatched by any other religion.

    Muslims who can't acknowledge the problem ARE the problem, as much as those who act.
    Without acknowledgement there will be no reform; and without reform, millions more will die of the world's biggest cause of Violent death.... Islam

  14. #14
    MichaelC
    Guest
    Originally posted by andak01
    Do you mean by that that one can find examples of hate crimes committed by Muslims in all those places? But if I bring up the point that hate crimes and intolerance are practiced by others, I'm 'you-tooing'. If I don't bring it up, I'm 'in denial' or worse (your words) a 'lying JERK'. If I try to mention anything good done by Muslims, I'm like a Nazi sympathizer or a 'self-hating Jew'. If I don't, 'the silence is deafening'. If I mention hate crimes against Muslims, that's a 'red herring' and I'm 'pretending to be the victim'. If I don't, you can continue to insinuate that only Muslims commit hate crimes and genocide and...you name it, we are the inventors of all evil. How do you explain that all of the evils we are charged with were committed before the birth of Mohammed (SAW) and are still committed by people of every religion on earth? It's amazing that Islam is the only religion on earth not allowed to have sinners. When we do something good, it's in spite of ourselves and when we do something bad it's because of our religion. But when a group of Christians kills 950+ people in the jungle in the name of Christ, that's different somehow. When an army called the Lord's Resistance Army rampages in the name of the Bible, that's different. When the KKK posts verses from the Bible on their website to justify racism, that's different from when a Palestinian site posts verses from the Qur'an to justify racism. When the Lord's Resistance Army and the SPLA enslave children to fight for them, that's different from when the INF does it. Christians can have aberrant sects, but not Muslims? OK. After all, we all look alike.
    I suppose that it does not show much but, in this interminable conversation on the matter at hand, I am making an honest effort to school myself in the way one ought to speak to another person who has diametrically opposed views. I am trying.

    That being said, I still find myself annoyed at the misdirection we are being sucked into.

    Hate crimes are despicable events occurring in every nation, every religion. For the most part they are the isolated acts of individuals. Sometimes, they are the conspiratorial acts of groups. But even the one group that you cite as an example of Christian violence, and I must say at this point that by your description they are indeed a nasty and brutal and totally unacceptable lot, still, they are NOT threatening other nations. Doesn't lessen their crime as it applies to their own country and maybe, after we deal with the terror that threatens ALL nations, we can, perhaps, deal with despicable conditions that are confined to specific regions.

    If Jim Jones and his cult engage in bizarre and terrible acts of murder/suicide in some remote jungle, how do you possibly equate that to the mulitiple jihadist groups whose avowed purpose is the internationlization of their fight. In fact, it is not even accurate of me to term it an "avowed purpose" as it is actually more of an accomplished fact.

    So, when you select all these disparate events perpetrated by factions outside of Islam, you have indeed pointed out that people other than Muslims commit terrible deeds. I myself have never argued that point. What I have argued is that sporadic occurrences of evil behavior by various unrelated factions around the world just are not in the same league with the MANY jihadist activities of Islam. It is to these activities that the world, if not you, is at present directing a great deal of its attention.

    Terror groups operating on an international level with access to weaponry and killing methods once confined to the military institutions of nations are a terrible threat to the security of the world. I know it is hard, perhaps impossible, for you to acknowledge that these groups constitute a signifcant force within Islam, but there are as you know many, and they all claim Allah and the Koran as their motivating power.

    To me, the crux of this conversation is not to dredge up every individual, unrelated crime done in the name of someone's God in some far flung byways of the world, but to direct our attention to the fact that there is some sort of apocalyptic struggle going on within Islam for its soul. Simply denying that the many terror groups represent Islam is just not going to stop this thing. We have all seen too much death and destruction over the years inflicted by these groups upon whomever they considered to be a necessary target. For a long time it was only Israel and the world did little about it.

    But over the years the conflict has taken on an expanded commitment to do harm to the West, particularly America. No amount of denial within any person will ever solve this problem. It is there in front of us. Armies are massing and this type of radical murder for someone's god is no longer going to be accepted. It just isn't.

    I think you have a lot of courage to come on this board and argue your views. And, for the most part, I think that you have maintained an intelligent approach. But I think that you are waaaaaaaaaay off the point when you bring up isolated, unrelated crimes that everyone abhors and try to use them to avoid the fact that the jihadist groups of Islam are vying for the soul of Islam and they seem to be winning. I know you disagree with that, but you must look at it. It's a real thing.

  15. #15
    andak01
    Guest
    Biggest cause of violent death. 42,000+ Americans died in car accidents last year. How many Americans died of terrorism? How many Americans died last year in gang violence? We have groups here like the Crips and the Bloods that number in the tens of thousands. We lose thousands every year to hand gun related violence. Mostly Christians killed by Christians.

    At least twice as many Muslims were killed by bombs dropped on Afghanistan as all the victims of WTC (including the Muslim victims). Three to four times the number of Palestinians were killed last year compared to Israelis killed by Muslims. Thousands of Muslims were killed in Gujarat, India.

    You hold forth the 2 million plus number in Sudan. 100% killed by Muslims? None died due to starvation because of droughts? Over how long, 20 years? How many due to incessant bombing from the north 3,000 (according to the victims numbers)? How many last year. And in this Civil War, the SPLA is taking credit for thousands of deaths, Muslim deaths.

    Not gang warfare
    Not land mines
    Not government operated Death Squads
    Not government sanctioned executions in China
    Not Civil Wars
    In Sierra Leone
    http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/sierra/index.htm
    In Congo
    http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/drc/
    In Uganda
    http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/uganda/Uganweb-02.htm
    In Eritrea
    http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/ethi...rit0103-02.htm
    Not the Tamil Tigers
    Not the IRA
    Not FARC
    Not the Basque Separatists
    Not the Lord's Resistance Army
    Not drug related crime
    Not violent crime in prisons
    Not corruption in governments
    http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/americas/mexico.html
    Not North Korea

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