Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: An Alternative to a (2nd) sovereign Palestinian Arab state

  1. #1
    abu afak
    Guest

    An Alternative to a (2nd) sovereign Palestinian Arab state

    ""...23. An alternative to a sovereign Palestinian Arab state is autonomy within a sovereign Israel for the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. This will answer Israel's vital security requirements and safeguard the civil and religious rights of the Arabs.

    When the arguments against the creation of a second Palestinian-Arab state are presented, as in the foregoing 22 parts of this essay, the question is often asked, well, what would you do with the millions of Palestinan-Arabs in Yesha? In response, I divide the problem to be solved into four elements: (i) the “root cause”; (ii) the Israeli requirements that must be met; (iii) the Palestinian-Arab rights that should be respected; (iv) specific solutions based on these tenets.

    (i) The root cause

    It should be clear from the foregoing 22 parts that I deem it to be the rejection of Israel by the Arabs - leadership and street alike - which, in turn, results from deep seeded hatred for Jews, Zionism and Israel. This hatred has causes of its own, such as the failure of the once mighty Arab/Islamic world to keep up with the advances of Western countries, but further exploration of this point is not essential at this point of the discussion because the implications are clear even from this brief review. ....

    On this issue of “root causes”, Daniel Pipes has written as follows:


    ... Rather, the root cause of the conflict remains today what it has always been: the Arab rejection of any sovereign Jewish presence between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

    The conflict continues into its sixth decade because Arabs expect they can defeat and then destroy the state of Israel.

    Israel cannot end this conflict unilaterally, by actions of its own. It can only take steps that will make it more rather than less likely that the Arabs will give up on those expectations.


    (ii) Israel’s Requirements

    From the foregoing analysis, substantiated in the pervious 22 parts of this essay, it follows that in any final arrangement with the Palestinian Arabs, nothing can supersede Israel’s security requirements. In turn, this leads to the conclusion that Israel sovereignty over the entire area of Western cannot be bartered. This obviates the solution envisaged by the “roadmap”, but leaves the door open for other arrangements.

    (iii) The Palestinian-Arabs' rights

    Referring to the Balfour Declaration and to the text of the League of Nations Mandate over Palestine, one can accept that the Palestinian Arabs do have civil and religious rights that should be respected.

    (iv) Specific solutions

    Autonomy

    If sovereignty is ruled out, then autonomy could still be considered as being congruent with the foregoing requirements. Autonomy would leave the control over security, borders, armed forces, foreign policy, air space, immigration and water firmly in Israeli hand. At the same time it would allow the Palestinian-Arabs to elect their own parliament, one that would legislate within a prescribed domain and with appropriate qualifications that would obviate human rights abuses. The Palestinian-Arabs would have no representation in the Israeli parliament. Education should be delegated to the autonomous authority in a manner that would put an end to the constant incitement against Jews and Israel. The autonomy arrangement must address and remedy the flaws of Oslo, flaws that permitted the PA to wage a continuous war against Israel.

    A model of such autonomy can be Puerto Rico, the official site of which describes the system as follows:


    Puerto Rico has authority over its internal affairs. United States controls: interstate trade, foreign relations and commerce, customs administration, control of air, land and sea, immigration and emigration, nationality and citizenship, currency, maritime laws, military service, military bases, army, navy and air force, declaration of war, constitutionality of laws, jurisdictions and legal procedures, treaties, radio and television--communications, agriculture, mining and minerals, highways, postal system; social security, and other areas generally controlled by the federal government in the United States. Puerto Rican institutions control internal affairs unless U.S. law is involved, as in matters of public health and pollution. ...

    Interestingly, autonomy is consistent with the Oslo Accords, which referred to self-government, not to independence.

    History also provides examples of autonomy being a nest of hornets rather than a basis for peace; suffice it to mention Nagorno-Karabakh and Kosovo as examples.


    Population transfer

    Solutions other than autonomy, particularly, population transfer, have been proposed over the years. Population transfer implies forceful transfer of the Palestinian-Arab population of Yesha to some other country/countries.

    Population transfers have been applied numerous times, the best known examples being the Turkey-Greece, India-Pakistan and Cyprus population exchanges. The following citation from the web-based 1-Up Encyclopaedia summarizes the transfer of Greeks from Turkey:


    In 1995 fewer than 20,000 Greeks still lived in Turkey... They are the remnants of the estimated 200,000 Greeks who were permitted under the provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne to remain in Turkey following the 1924 population exchange, which involved the forcible resettlement of approximately 2 million Greeks from Anatolia... Beginning in the 1930s, the government encouraged the Greeks to emigrate, and thousands, in particular the educated youth, did so, reducing the Greek population to about 48,000 by 1965.


    As to Cyprus, the same 1-Up Encyclopaedia informs:


    The de facto partition of Cyprus resulting from the Turkish invasion, or intervention, as the Turks preferred to call their military action, caused much suffering in addition to the thousands of dead, many of whom were unaccounted for even years later. An estimated one-third of the population of each ethnic community had to flee their homes.

    A more detailed examination constitutes part of a series of articles on the refugees, posted by the Jerusalem Post:

    In an effort to end the Balkan Wars at the beginning of the 19th century, Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey agreed to exchange their minority populations in the Treaties of San Stephano (1878), Constantinople (1913) and Neuilly (1919). However, the major exchange of population (transfer) took place between Greece and Turkey in order that a permanent border could be set between the longtime enemies
    ...
    Altogether 1.25 million Greeks from Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace were transferred to Greece, and nearly 500,000 Turks, primarily from Macedonia and Epirus, were transferred to Turkey. This project was organized and supervised by the celebrated Norwegian Arctic explorer Fridtjof Nansen, winner of the 1922 Nobel Prize for his humanitarian activities.
    ...
    The largest population transfer yet was effected when Pakistan split from India on August 15, 1947. Eight million Hindus and six million Muslims were involved, and perhaps a million died in a painful but necessary operation that had broad international support. Despite the enormous number of refugees and the relative poverty of both nations, no international relief organizations were established to aid in the resettlement. (It was a grave historical error that the area of Kashmir, in dispute today, was overlooked, thus leaving a festering wound in the relations between the two countries.)
    ...
    In 1945, Herbert Hoover proposed the recovery of some 3 million acres of land in Iraq for the resettlement of the Arabs of Mandatory Western Palestine. "Palestine itself," he wrote, "could be turned over to Jewish immigrants in search of a homeland."

    In addition, as discussed in Part 21 of this essay, major population transfers, especially of Germans, occurred after WW II in Central and Eastern Europe.

    In 1948, population transfer was actually practised against the Jews, when the Jordanians expelled the Jews from the Old City of Jerusalem as well as the Jews who survived the massacre of the Etzion Block.

    Having already been introduced by the Arabs, applying population transfer to the Palestinian-Arab population of Yesha would be far preferable to autonomy, but the political and logistical problems involved seem to preclude such a solution, given the contemporary realities. For a different opinion, see, inter alia, Boris Shusteff, who writes:

    There are three major reasons that make the transfer of the Arabs out of Eretz Yisrael an absolute necessity. ..........

    Interestingly, the solution of population transfer has been suggested and supported by many non-Jews, including the British intelligence officer, Col. Meinertzhagen (who was mentioned in Part 21.6). Closer to home and to the present, House Republican Majority Leader, Dick Armey supports this solution, as demonstrated by the following MSNBC interview snippet with Chris Matthews ("Hardball", May 1, 2002):


    MATTHEWS: Well, just to repeat, you believe that the Palestinians who are now living on the West Bank should get out of there?

    ARMEY: Yes.
    ---------------------------------

    Yesha in Federation with Jordan

    From the perspectives of regional security and stability, a Palestinian-Jordanian federation may be preferable to a Palestinian state. ...

    ...In summary, there are several alternatives to a sovereign Palestinian-Arab state in Yesha, and none could possibly be as detrimental to Israel and the West as that which the Roadmap architects are concocting.

    Contributed by Joseph Alexander Norland. This piece is cross-posted on IsraPundit and Dawson Speaks...""

    much much more at http://www.dawsonspeek.com/archives/000928.php#000928

  2. #2
    soral
    Guest

    Exclamation trasnfer is the only option

    arabs will NEVER live peacefully, side by side with Jews. Transfer is the ONLY option.

    Israel for the Jews.
    Jordan for the arabs.

    West Palestine for the Jews.
    East Palestine for the arabs.

    Transfer is the ONLY option.

  3. #3
    humus_sapiens
    Guest
    To think logically and with no prejudice, large population migrations happen for reasons much less than the ME conflict. Masses of people resettle to build water dams and highways, for purely economic reasons or in human calamities.

    IMHO, compensated transfer is the most humane and realistic solution. Enough civilian deaths already.

    And since the Arabs waged war after agressive war on Israel, purposefully keep the "refugees" (in 3rd generation!) in misery, and perpetrated despicable atrocities, and demonstrated complete inability to compromise for peaceful coexistence, it's only fair for the Arab League to foot the bill. Good opportunity for Saudis to show their supposedly peaceful nature.

  4. #4
    yoyo
    Guest
    Originally posted by humus_sapiens
    IMHO, compensated transfer is the most humane and realistic solution. Enough civilian deaths already.
    What about the human rights of family to be reunify. Do you think it is human to let Arafat wifes, alone in Paris, with no husband to cuddle her. Send him back to be with his wife Then you have all those people which got one dream is to live under their hero, Saddam, be nice and send them to Iraq.

    Originally posted by humus_sapiens
    And since the Arabs waged war after agressive war on Israel, purposefully keep the "refugees" (in 3rd generation!) in misery, and perpetrated despicable atrocities, and demonstrated complete inability to compromise for peaceful coexistence, it's only fair for the Arab League to foot the bill. Good opportunity for Saudis to show their supposedly peaceful nature.
    But still 546000 arab refugee which left no money and the desert, against 800000 jewish refugee who left collosal bank accounts, business and houses. Even after they pay for all the refugee, they will still owe some money to Israel.

  5. #5
    PunkMaister
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by soral View Post
    arabs will NEVER live peacefully, side by side with Jews. Transfer is the ONLY option.

    Israel for the Jews.
    Jordan for the arabs.

    West Palestine for the Jews.
    East Palestine for the arabs.

    Transfer is the ONLY option.
    Correction Muslims will never live in peace with the Jews especially when their Qu'ran describes Jews as the sons of apes and pigs. But in fact Muslims do not live in peace with anyone. Look at Thailand and elsewhere in the world and you will see!

  6. #6
    spike
    Guest
    I understand Thailand is now building a security barrier on its border (part of it?) with Malaysia . . to keep out terrorists.

  7. #7
    Ricky
    Guest
    One of the solutions suggested by abu afak is autonomy. He brings Puerto Rico as an example. I looked up the history of Puerto Rico in an internet article and found that the inhabitants of Puerto Rico were given American citizenship in the beginning of the 20th century. This is as it should be. There is no such thing in democracy as autonomy instead of citizenship of the country that has overall sovereignty in the territory concerned, only autonomy in addition to citizenship (and of course voting rights). The same is true of the Basques of Spain, the Scots and Nothern Irish of the UK, etc If autonomy is to be the permanent status of the West Bank, then all the Palestinians living on the West Bank must ( at the very least) be offered full Israeli citizenship. I do not imply that this is the solution that I suggest in practice, I am merely pointing out that this is a necessary consequence for anyone who wishes Israel to remain a truly democratic country and suggests that autonomy should be the permanent status of the West Bank

  8. #8
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky View Post
    I am merely pointing out that this is a necessary consequence for anyone who wishes Israel to remain a truly democratic country and suggests that autonomy should be the permanent status of the West Bank
    What you are talking about got nothing to do with Israel being a democratic state. Secondly, Israel is barely democratic, and most certainly is NOT any sort of a true democracy. A country that elects only 12 (out of 120) members of its parliament and does not allow the public vote on most crucial political desicions is not a truly democratic country.

    Ironically, none of that concerns you, as long as you can advertise giving priveledges to foreign enemies of this country.

  9. #9
    CanDo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle View Post
    A country that elects only 12 (out of 120) members of its parliament and does not allow the public vote on most crucial political desicions is not a truly democratic country.
    Pure democracy isn't the best solution to good government either. It is very difficult for the average person to fully evaluate the organizational, planning, analytical, implementational, ethical and leadership qualities of those running for office. The one who looks the best and talks the best usually gets the vote.

    Pehaps it is better to have fewer candidates, with the winners making most of the crucial political decisions.

  10. #10
    PunkMaister
    Guest

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky View Post
    One of the solutions suggested by abu afak is autonomy. He brings Puerto Rico as an example. I looked up the history of Puerto Rico in an internet article and found that the inhabitants of Puerto Rico were given American citizenship in the beginning of the 20th century. This is as it should be. There is no such thing in democracy as autonomy instead of citizenship of the country that has overall sovereignty in the territory concerned, only autonomy in addition to citizenship (and of course voting rights). The same is true of the Basques of Spain, the Scots and Nothern Irish of the UK, etc If autonomy is to be the permanent status of the West Bank, then all the Palestinians living on the West Bank must ( at the very least) be offered full Israeli citizenship. I do not imply that this is the solution that I suggest in practice, I am merely pointing out that this is a necessary consequence for anyone who wishes Israel to remain a truly democratic country and suggests that autonomy should be the permanent status of the West Bank
    Except Puertorricans for the most part are not fanatical muslims as is the case with the palestinians. In Islam there is no room for democracy. The only rule there can be is Sharia law and to them there can be no Israel or no other nation than the nation of Islam. They are ordered by their so called prophet to wage war against the unbelievers (Jews, Christians, Pagans etc.) until they convert or submit (Become their slave class or Dhimmis) or are exterminated from the face of this Earth. Now If palestinians were not fanatical muslims I guarantee you none of this would be happening and both Israel and Palestine would be hugely financially and socially successful societies but Islam does not allow for that. For those that follow the evil cult is all or nothing. It is sadly as simple as that...

  11. #11
    wellofvow
    Guest

    welcome to Israel-where FACT is "decision"

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

    So now Israel is supposed to quake in fear that it made the wrong "decision" in calling a political entity that bombs our sovereign territory DAILY an enemy.

    DUH.

    And we should also be frightened that the terrorist Mahmoud Abbas calls this a "crime against humanity". Just how did he define the homicide bombers from his Fatah?

    DUHDUH

    And the UN says that this contravenes "international law".

    are you asleep yet?????

  12. #12
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NY & TA
    Posts
    6,774
    What I dont understand is how one can be continuously bombed and still allow for workers to come from the enemies area and make their wage with your good graces. Moreso than that, how you can as a state send water and electricity to an entity (rather at this point, entities), that are attacking you daily.

    I will vote for the first politician that states that all water, electricity and economic cooperation will be cut with both paleostinian entities. I bet many Israelis will do so as well. A simple platform... but a very effective one I think.
    Last edited by bararallu; 09-23-2007 at 05:31 PM.

  13. #13
    sethnic
    Guest
    The first thing to avoiding any plan is desperation. In my opinion, the entire Oslo process and all of its successors were born of desperation. Out of convenience, Israel brought in a group of thugs and corrupt terrorists who then proceeded to abuse their own population on a systematic level. That abuse continues to this day. Israel was desperate to find a partner, and we compromise with the lowest of the low.

    In a controversial way, I believe that Israel is to be condemned for having imposed the PLO on the Palestinians.

    If we had not been desperate, we would have taken the time necessary to come to a workable solution that respects the rights of the Arab inhabitants of the territories. First and foremost, that would have meant seeking out and empowering representatives who are committed to improving the quality of life of the Palestinian Arabs through peace and economic development. Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I still believe they are out there. It is critical, though, to not project on people with a terrorist past some form of imagined "moderation".

    And it is out of desperation that Israel continues to allow violent groups to abuse the Palestinians. Israel is afraid of taking responsibility, and that responsibility may mean military action. But military action without a clear plan for creating a stable Palestinian Arab society is merely punitive, and compounds the suffering of the Arabs.

    We need to not compromise on the way forward. No matter what it takes.

  14. #14
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NY & TA
    Posts
    6,774
    desperation != convenience.

    And when we do speak of convenience, it should reference those who are or were convenienced, namely a select group of elitist socialists, hypocritical ones by definition, who stood to gain fame and fortune selling out their nation and people.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    5,219

    Could an Israeli Palestine Federation work?

    One of the major problems with the two state solution is to trust the Palestinians with security tasks - controlling the Jordan Valley, the Philadelphia Corridor (obviously not controlled), and policing for terror inside the WB and Gaza.

    A second problem deals with apportioning the old city.

    Could a federation - not a bi-national state but a federation of two states with separate roles, overcome these problems?

    Israel would be the sole security provider for the federation - control of the military situation within each. Import/export taxes would be collected by the federation, but income and other local taxes would be state specific.

    While Jews and Druze would be the army, Pal Arabs would be engaged in a federation border police, including the Israeli border, federation customs, as well as local police. Also, Pal Arabs (and non-druz Israeli Arabs) would have national service requirements that are non-military: environmental, poverty outreach, etc. - in both areas, concentrating on underprivileged areas.

    Outside of the old city, pre-67 Israel, with mild modification (not Ariel, for example, not the E-5 corridor) the ordinances, residency permits, land ownership, immigration and etc. - would be governed by Israel. Lands that were pre-67 Arab would have those same things governed by the Palestinian state. Free movement from one to the other - as Israel controls the security, meaning freedom to fight terrorists where-ever, and Israel having the duty to disarm the terror groups - ie. Hamas, etc. - not the Palestinians.

    The old city would remain as is, with "joint sovereignty" - sovereignty of the federation, not the individual states.

    As for the "right of return" - compensation only, right of return into a Palestine, with free movement into Israel, but not the right to reside in Israel.

    Basically, the goal of this plan would be to avoid the following stumbling blocks:

    (1) Israel having to trust the Palestinians on security/terrorism.
    (2) "Who is sovereign in Jerusalem"
    (3) free movement/road blocks - including Gaza to WB

    The Arabs would gain something more than autonomy, but actual rights to control immigration into their state, their own criminal laws to enforce, water rights, their own land and business policies, and they would be able to free-load on the Israeli military protecting them from outside armies, and legal rights in the old city, as well as free movement.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Free Content: Who is Responsible for the Palestinian Refugees?
    By NewsGuy in forum Free for Webmasters!
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-30-2008, 11:20 AM
  2. Univ. of Michigan to Host 'Zionism is Racism' Conference
    By L@mplighterM in forum In The News
    Replies: 142
    Last Post: 08-22-2005, 02:39 PM
  3. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10-28-2004, 04:31 AM
  4. Bush's Mideast Speech - 6/24 15:45 Eastern
    By cerulean in forum In The News
    Replies: 111
    Last Post: 07-18-2002, 10:56 PM
  5. Bush speech on Middle East
    By Miztiki in forum Israeli-Arab Conflict
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-25-2002, 02:54 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •