And the Crowd goes Wild watching

[abu afak]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi...4/23&type=news

[andak01]

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/image/christian_shias.jpg

They certainly do.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/image/christian_shias.jpg

They certainly do.

You continue to "not get it" with your attempt to equate a few guys, located "somewhere" with those mobs of frenzied muslims in Karbala.

Give it up. Everyone sees through this lame tactic.

[abu afak]

You forgot the Caption:

""While it is NOT a prevalent practice among Christians, look at these pictures of Christians in the Philippines practicing the same self flagellation tactics practiced by Modern day Shia.
PIC
Notice that this practice goes back to early Christianity and outdates the practice of the shia --who most probably took it from them. From the fourth century AD, flagellation was practised by both clergy and non-clergy as the most effective means of penance. (See the New Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol 4, Micropaedia, p 813.)"""""
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/...a_rituals_.htm




And thanks for another 'mainstrean' Islamic site.
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/

I see they don't like Shias. .... hmmmm

and Blaming Bush, Rumsfeld and Myers for 9/11 too.


Uh Oh.. and what's this on Andaks Sunni site?

Why.. Why... It's the DOCTRINE OF CORRUPTION he never heard of... and that Metch and I said was there:

ooooooooooooo weeeeeeeeeeeeee


""....GOSPEL AUTHORS

Source: Answering-Christianity

Introduction: We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Just who were the real authors of the Bible?

The quotes in green below are from the NIV Bible's commentary. Before each Book/Gospel, there are few pages explaining the history of it. I was shocked to see that most of today's Bible's Books and Gospels are doubtful and unreliable. I will start with the New Testament first, and then the Old Testament second. The bibliography of the NIV Bible that I used is listed at the end of this article.

After thoroughly reading this article, I would like you to answer the following questions:

1- Is all of the Bible GOD's Divine Revelations?
2- Did the Prophets of GOD really write the Bible of today?
3- Is the Bible perfect?
4- Did man indeed corrupt the Bible?
5- Is the Bible of today reliable?

If your answer is no to most of or all of the above questions except for #4, then allow me to say that your faith has serious problems!

You be the Judge: After all of the evidence provided in the article, should I as a non-Christian take the Bible as the word of GOD Almighty?

Exposing the New Testament's historical corruptions....""

And on, And on, And on, it goes:

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/us/authors_gospels.htm

[JustPat]

Inflammatory images of self abuse and for what? Many religions practice such extreme self abuse. Are we to assume that this makes those who do so a true representation of that religion? Should we assume that all Buddists will torch themselves? Will all Jews die the death of Masada? Great pictures, pathetic people, sad story. Let's talk real world here.

[andak01]

Originally posted by JustPat
Inflammatory images of self abuse and for what? Many religions practice such extreme self abuse. Are we to assume that this makes those who do so a true representation of that religion? Should we assume that all Buddists will torch themselves? Will all Jews die the death of Masada? Great pictures, pathetic people, sad story. Let's talk real world here.

No. Talking real world is to admit that self flagellation is widely practiced amongst the Shiites. It's also to say that flagellation and self mutilation are not unique to the Shiites. The question here is whether there is any direct relationship between the seeming violence of this act and anything more threatening. When we get out of the realm of emotional response and actually look for any direct link, its difficult to establish.

Abu, you have really outdone yourself. So now I am directly responsible for all of the content of a site that I quote a photo from. I did not quote any of their text or for that matter even read much beyond the caption you quote, but what the hey, if you can use it against me, so much the better.

If I had wanted to quote the text, I would have.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by andak01
No. Talking real world is to admit that self flagellation is widely practiced amongst the Shiites. It's also to say that flagellation and self mutilation are not unique to the Shiites. The question here is whether there is any direct relationship between the seeming violence of this act and anything more threatening. When we get out of the realm of emotional response and actually look for any direct link, its difficult to establish.

Actually, it is an easy step. Anyone who would do such damage to themselves would have little inhibition to doing violence to others. What's a little blood letting among enemies?

[andak01]

Originally posted by JustPat
Actually, it is an easy step. Anyone who would do such damage to themselves would have little inhibition to doing violence to others. What's a little blood letting among enemies?

So do we in fact find such a pattern among Phillipino Christian flagellants? Are Shiites more violent than other Iraqis? Do you have any evidence to back your assumption?

[JustPat]

Originally posted by andak01
So do we in fact find such a pattern among Phillipino Christian flagellants? Are Shiites more violent than other Iraqis? Do you have any evidence to back your assumption?

I guess you missed my point. I'll restate it and try again.
If a man is passionate enough to beat himself into a bloody mess, what can possibly stop him from beating his enemy to death, especially one he sees as opposing his god? Passion is a wonderful thing until it is turned toward others in violence.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
Abu, you have really outdone yourself. So now I am directly responsible for all of the content of a site that I quote a photo from.

I know this is addressed to Abu Afak, but I feel like throwing my two cents in: It is not so much that you are responsible for the content of the site that you wish to quote from. It is just that it is instructive to the rest of us to see where you prefer to get your information.

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
I know this is addressed to Abu Afak, but I feel like throwing my two cents in: It is not so much that you are responsible for the content of the site that you wish to quote from. It is just that it is instructive to the rest of us to see where you prefer to get your information.

I have never used that site before. As you very well know, I have used quotes from hundreds of different sources. In this case, it wasn't a quote, it was a photograph of flagellants in the Phillipines. Do you deny that there is such a thing? If so, then maybe you can say the photo was rigged et cetera. Until then, stop grasping at straws. If I had quoted from Kahane.org, which I have done in the past, nobody would have such problems. At least they wouldn't try to use a photograph (the only quote I ever made from the site) as proof of me being a liar).

http://www.bobmay.info/flagellants.htm
Suddenly the streets were blocked for some reason. I saw a large group heading my way. The guys in front were dressed like Roman soldiers. A couple of guys dragging brown wooden crosses followed them. But the real point of interest was next. About a dozen shirtless men were walking behind the crosses. They were beating themselves with whips. They were walking along slowly, swinging this whip thing back and forth from one side of their back to the other. Their backs were all bloody with large butterfly-shaped bruises. Little bits of blood and skin were flying everywhere. Everything had little splatters of blood on it. The men had cloths wrapped around their heads so they remained unidentified. Their white pants were covered with splotches of blood -- like in a butcher-shop. They were "flagellants" and they were doing this as a religious rite.

http://www.travelnotes.org/Travel/easter.htm
The procession stoped occasionally: Jesus knelt down with his cross, while Mary and two other girls ran up to him, wept at his feet, and begged his captors to free him.

Photographers speckled with blood, from trying to get close-ups of the flagellants' backs, struggled with the Romans and modern-day t-shirt-and-jeans security staff to get a better shot. Then the procession would continue.

http://philippines.newstrove.com/
KoreaHerald
Published in The Korea Herald - Indexed on Apr 18, 2003
On Good Friday, blood will again flow in many parts of the Philippines as scores of flagellants whip themselves bloody and some even have themselves nailed to the cross.

http://www.newsflash.org/2001/04/tl/tl001384.htm
Laguna Province, April 14, 2001 - Filipino Catholics imbue their Holy Week celebrations with a special kind of fervor. It is a time for spiritual cleansing, religious street theater and processions, penitentes or flagellants and passion plays.

I got 158 hits on a Yahoo search of 'Philipines flagellants'. Do you want all of them?

[andak01]

Originally posted by JustPat
I guess you missed my point. I'll restate it and try again.
If a man is passionate enough to beat himself into a bloody mess, what can possibly stop him from beating his enemy to death, especially one he sees as opposing his god? Passion is a wonderful thing until it is turned toward others in violence.

You are correct sir or madame. That's why we have lots of riot police on hand during Mardi Gras and at soccer games. Your theory makes sense, but it is only a theory. Perhaps these people release their violent tendancies and achieve catharsis. I could think of outlawing this practice as a health risk. But to do so on causative grounds is a much shakier argument. It sounds a lot like preemptive strikes. "They don't do what we want and they MAY do something we hate." Therefore, regiem change, bombs, sanctions, ground invasion, et cetera.

But remember we have been told that the majority of Iraqis (read Shiites) are happy to form a secular democracy in the ashes (all Saddam's fault) of Saddam's brutal regiem. We were told that, as soon as Saddam and his WDMs were gone, everyone would love us for liberating them. Our track record for understanding Shiites is super. So far, the best move we have made was not to bomb the Mosque at Karbala.

We were told that Iraq would resemble the Marshall plan. It seems that WWII is the only analogy that speaks to us. Saddam is Hitler. Bush is Roosevelt. The Iraqis are Japanese. Any non-European culture is Japanese to us. Well instead of allowing the libraries to be burnt, the Americans should have been reading some of those books. Until they understand those people, they are doomed to failure. Doomed to back and build up another Saddam and another, until all the military in the world will not be able to subdue the hatred of its people.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/huffing.../index_np.html

[JustPat]

Originally posted by andak01
You are correct sir or madame.

Thanks, and it is definitely "sir."

Originally posted by andak01
Your theory makes sense, but it is only a theory. Perhaps these people release their violent tendancies and achieve catharsis. I could think of outlawing this practice as a health risk. But to do so on causative grounds is a much shakier argument. It sounds a lot like preemptive strikes. "They don't do what we want and they MAY do something we hate." Therefore, regiem change, bombs, sanctions, ground invasion, et cetera.

Hmmm ... I don't remember saying anything about outlawing anything. My statement was simply that those who are dedicated to the point of self mutilation could not be expected to have any reservations about hurting others. These are people you watch and stay prepared to defend yourself against. When they group up you take action to prevent them doing violence to others. I don't care if a bloak wants to off himself, but I take it personally when I become the target.

Originally posted by andak01
But remember we have been told that the majority of Iraqis (read Shiites) are happy to form a secular democracy in the ashes (all Saddam's fault) of Saddam's brutal regiem. We were told that, as soon as Saddam and his WDMs were gone, everyone would love us for liberating them. Our track record for understanding Shiites is super. So far, the best move we have made was not to bomb the Mosque at Karbala.

We have been told a lot of different things by a lot of different people. We have not been told everything, nor will we be. Those who are optimists will belive the best, pessimists the worst. Most of us will take it all with a grain of salt and see what shakes out. Sometimes I think this instant analysis makes for wide spread idiocy. This problem didn't happen over night and won't be solved overnight. There is a vast difference between Eastern and Western cultures and it will be up to the Iraqi people to determine their destiny, that was the point of liberation.

Originally posted by andak01
We were told that Iraq would resemble the Marshall plan. It seems that WWII is the only analogy that speaks to us. Saddam is Hitler. Bush is Roosevelt. The Iraqis are Japanese. Any non-European culture is Japanese to us. Well instead of allowing the libraries to be burnt, the Americans should have been reading some of those books. Until they understand those people, they are doomed to failure. Doomed to back and build up another Saddam and another, until all the military in the world will not be able to subdue the hatred of its people.

Perhaps not the only analogy that speaks to us, but the simplest to understand and relate to. We have graphic images of WWII that paint terrible pictures and move our emotions. But I must say that if Saddam is equated with Hitler, the Iraqi's are Germans.

Let's hope that the reconstruction of Iraq is as skillful and well executed as the war.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
You are correct sir or madame. That's why we have lots of riot police on hand during Mardi Gras and at soccer games. Your theory makes sense, but it is only a theory. Perhaps these people release their violent tendancies and achieve catharsis. I could think of outlawing this practice as a health risk. But to do so on causative grounds is a much shakier argument. It sounds a lot like preemptive strikes. "They don't do what we want and they MAY do something we hate." Therefore, regiem change, bombs, sanctions, ground invasion, et cetera.

But remember we have been told that the majority of Iraqis (read Shiites) are happy to form a secular democracy in the ashes (all Saddam's fault) of Saddam's brutal regiem. We were told that, as soon as Saddam and his WDMs were gone, everyone would love us for liberating them. Our track record for understanding Shiites is super. So far, the best move we have made was not to bomb the Mosque at Karbala.

We were told that Iraq would resemble the Marshall plan. It seems that WWII is the only analogy that speaks to us. Saddam is Hitler. Bush is Roosevelt. The Iraqis are Japanese. Any non-European culture is Japanese to us. Well instead of allowing the libraries to be burnt, the Americans should have been reading some of those books. Until they understand those people, they are doomed to failure. Doomed to back and build up another Saddam and another, until all the military in the world will not be able to subdue the hatred of its people.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/huffing.../index_np.html

Why do you spend so much time demeaning the U.S.A. while defending the excesses of Islam? You have posted a lot of words in your tenure at this forum, attempting to portray islamic terrorism as an unimportant phenomenon indulged in by a few guys here and there, but really nothing for us here in the west to be concerned about. Now you are wasting your time trying to paint this barbaric scene in another light.

You used to bring up the sexual predator fiasco in the Catholic Church as an example of another religion with problems, but ignored subsequent posts which pointed out the extremely vocal Catholics who decried these crimes and hounded the church into an admission of culpability. The point is that when you are provided opportunity to simply decry terrorism and barbaric behavior, you never do. You just spin, spin, spin, trying to make it look like something else, or perhaps, you feel that if you just keep denying and accusing that everyone will just give up and go away and you will win your point by default.

A person who mitigates terrorism in the manner that you do while justifying these barbaric acts is not a moderate in my understanding of the term. I have yet to understand why people at this board apply that term to you.

[andak01]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/903717.asp#BODY

“I love the stories about people saying, ‘Isn’t it wonderful to be able to express our religion, the Shia religion, on a pilgrimage this weekend.’… It made my day to read that.”
George W. Bush