Israel's WMD, the world's best known secret, vanunu, Israel's longest pol. prisoner

takeo · 05-04-2003, 11:20 AM

The US rejected the Syrian proposal to make the Middle East an area free of WMD, in a reaction to the us accusation that Syria would possess WMD. Apparently, WMD is not the main concern of the US, because the US-government is well aware of Israel's illegal possession of WMD, a taboo in the American and Israeli press. Israeli scientists who did talk to the press had to pay a very high price... yep, this is the only democracy in the Middle East according to to some!
in the meanwhile no wMD have been found in Iraq, the official reason to start this war witch killed many 1000's of people and destabilised the world.
cynism in a new dimension...

Mordechai Vanunu, Israel's nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel's nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. Olenka Frenkiel reveals the extent of Israel's nuclear gagging.

Revelations hit the press in October 1986
Vanunu has spent 17 years in jail, 11 of which were in a minute solitary confinement cell - and he has just had his appeal for parole denied.

He will stay in jail until 2004, when his term is expected to end.

Sunday Times journalist Peter Hounam heard rumours in 1986 that an Israeli whistleblower was offering proof of what the world had long suspected.

Vanunu was that whistleblower.

His revelations confirmed that Israel was building advanced nuclear weapons.

After the Sunday Times published this scoop, Vanunu was lured to Italy and kidnapped by Mossad agents and illegally smuggled back to Israel.

He was tried in secret and convicted of treason and spying.

Security chief exposed

In court, at his parole hearing, Avigdor Feldman, Vanunu's lawyer, argued that his client had no more secrets and should be freed.

But the prosecutor had a new argument: the imminent war with Iraq.

After the hearing Mr Feldman told Correspondent: "The prosecutor said that if Vanunu were released, the Americans would probably leave Iraq and go after Israel and Israel's nuclear weapons - which I found extremely ridiculous."

The real force blocking Vanunu's release is a man who was known only as "Y".

In 2001, "Y" was exposed as Yehiyel Horev and it is said that the only thing he fears is publicity.

Mr Horev is the head of Israel's most powerful intelligence service, dealing with nuclear and military secrets.

Yehiyel Horev unmasked, here, for the first time
His accountability has only been to the many prime ministers he has watched come and go in the 16 years he has built his power base.

He has been likened to the head of the FBI, J Edgar Hoover - an autocrat out of control.

Ronen Bergman, security correspondent for one of Israel's leading newspapers - Yediot Ahronoth - says: "Horev is a grave danger to Israeli democracy.

"He operates with no law, no real scrutiny and no monitoring by the Israeli parliament.

"Horev was afraid that veterans of the Israeli intelligence and the Israeli nuclear effort would try to maintain their footprint in the history of Israel and tell their story.

"He wanted to frighten them."

Acting with impunity

Israel never confirms or denies claims that it has nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

The country positions itself outside international treaties, which would make it subject to inspection.

Uzi Even - Dimona should be shut down
For 40 years, most Israelis have been content with this policy - known as "nuclear ambiguity".

But there are some in Israel who argue this policy has had its day.

They say the costs of such secrecy to Israeli democracy are too great.

Uzi Even, was a young scientist working, in the 60s, at Dimona - Israel's nuclear reactor - as did Vanunu.

Today, Mr Even says it should be shut down.

Forty-year-old reactors tend to have accidents and he believes that Dimona, which is beyond the reach of the Israeli parliament, needs to be brought into a system of accountability and public scrutiny.

Mr Even explained: "You should have an outside watchdog.

"The secrecy more or less created an extra- territorial area in Israel where standard procedures of safety monitoring are not implemented.

"So worker safety, environmental questions and industrial safety procedures, are not covered, and there are thousands of people working there."

Enforced silence

Nothing illustrates this better than the sensitive issue of Dimona's cancer victims.

In an Israeli documentary in 2002, Dimona workers said accidents had been routine.

They spoke of explosions, fires and liquid and toxic gas leaks that they had to clean, often without protection.

Accidents were 'routine' at Dimona
The authorities denied they had worked with radioactive materials.

They have refused to compensate them or their families for their years of loyal service.

Because of the strict secrecy rules they were even unable to fight for their rights.

When Correspondent approached one of the workers, who was dying of cancer, he refused to be interviewed - but with some regret.

Unaware he was being filmed, he said: "I wanted to talk to you but I have been silenced.

"They came from intelligence and told me not to talk.

"They said I would be like Vanunu."

Vanunu has another year in jail.

When his sentence is finished he hopes to emigrate to America.

But Mr Horev has clearly let it be known he never intends to let Vanunu leave Israel.

http://212.58.226.18/2/hi/programmes...nt/2841377.stm

**Mediocrates** · 05-04-2003, 12:43 PM

Well if he comes to America he can apply to visit Jonathan Pollard. He's about an hour from here in Butner.

BTW do you think other countries protect their nuclear secrets ferociously? French perhaps, enough to blow up a Greenpeace ship and kill some people?

**Mediocrates** · 05-04-2003, 12:45 PM

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/19...anielsson.html

The Legacy of French Nuclear Testing. A poisoned Pacific.

tandem · 05-04-2003, 05:54 PM

takeo:

>>>'Israel's illegal possession of WMD,'<<<

just out of curiosity, why it is "illegal" to possess these weapons? france has biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, as well as america, russia, china...

>>>'Israeli scientists who did talk to the press had to pay a very high price... yep, this is the only democracy in the Middle East according to to some!'<<<

pure rubbish.. how many governments in the world have strict rules for scientists working on highly sensitive projects not to talk to anyone about it? literally every country in the world, takeo. what does this have to do with democracy?? absolutely nothing

i read that in the united states, some workers who were at area 51 later developed all kinds of weird diseases, possibly from exposure to radiation or chemical toxins that were being disposed of regularly at the base. so they sued the government to get compensation. the problem is when they started working at this base, they signed a special form that dismisses the government from any liability. when people work on projects like that, in top secret facilities, they essentially lose their civil rights, and i'm pretty sure the united states is not the only place where this is happening, regardless if the country is a democracy or not

i wouldn't wanna comment on iraq's WMD for now, although i will admit america's evidence from the very beginning was rather weak

takeo · 05-05-2003, 05:12 AM

BTW do you think other countries protect their nuclear secrets ferociously? French perhaps, enough to blow up a Greenpeace ship and kill some people?

Well in france people and the press are able to write about french nuclear projects, altough some ugly things happened in the past organised by the secret service, but those were illegal.
In Israel there's a whole secret service only committed to blackmail and threaten people not to reveile anything of israel's nuclear project.

just out of curiosity, why it is "illegal" to possess these weapons? france has biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons, as well as america, russia, china...

because according to the treaty, certified by the UN, only france, china, russia, the US and GB are permitted to devellop nukes. Israel is not on this list, neither is Iraq... do you remember that India and Pakistan got punished for their nuclear tests? And what about Iraq, huh????????????? (let's just suppose that Iraq had WMD, which was a lie of course, but even if they had, why attack Iraq for possession of wMD and not Israel???)

pure rubbish.. how many governments in the world have strict rules for scientists working on highly sensitive projects not to talk to anyone about it? literally every country in the world, takeo. what does this have to do with democracy?? absolutely nothing

But i don't know of any other case in a democracy where people got deprived of their liberty and got sentenced to more than 10 years in solitude for talking to the press...
it happened in Russia, the soviet-union and china, and each time HR-organisations AND the uS made a great fuss about it...

**Mediocrates** · 05-05-2003, 05:34 AM

because according to the treaty, certified by the UN, only france, china, russia, the US and GB are permitted to devellop nukes. Israel is not on this list, neither is Iraq... do you remember that India and Pakistan got punished for their nuclear tests? And what about Iraq, huh????????????? (let's just suppose that Iraq had WMD, which was a lie of course, but even if they had, why attack Iraq for possession of wMD and not Israel???)

A common misconception. The NNPT is about the proliferation of technology not the possession. Since Israel was (apparently) not a non nuclear country at the time Article II does not apply. Whereas Article I does.

Here is the text:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt2.htm

India and Pakistan were warned (not punished at least not under any legal jurisdiction) under the CBT (Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty) although it is possible to construe that testing is a theoretical break of Article VI.

Your last sentence is pureagitprop. Yes it is.

**Mediocrates** · 05-05-2003, 05:37 AM

BTW it's nice to see that Israel Haters are reading the Israeli press. Since this story was published, this is fourth website and you are the 6th or 7th hater to scream and jump up and down and foam about zionaziwarmongeringunjustsecret yadda yadda. You'd me amazed at the philosophical company you keep: Nazis, skinheads, America Firsters, the John Birch Society, race hate groups and the like.

**Mediocrates** · 05-05-2003, 05:40 AM

Also you didn't answer my question. Who does not ferociously protect their nuclear secrets? Wouldn't YOU, dear heart, be first in line screaming for Israeli regime change if they ever accidently let slip their own secrets? Of course you would.

Remember, there is no room for reality with ideologues.

takeo · 05-05-2003, 06:09 AM

Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to receive the transfer from any transferor whatsoever of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices or of control over such weapons or explosive devices directly, or indirectly; not to manufacture or otherwise acquire nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices; and not to seek or receive any assistance in the manufacture of nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.1. Each non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty undertakes to accept safeguards, as set forth in an agreement to be negotiated and concluded with the International Atomic Energy Agency in accordance with the Statute of the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Agencys safeguards system, for the exclusive purpose of verification of the fulfillment of its obligations assumed under this Treaty with a view to preventing diversion of nuclear energy from peaceful uses to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices. Procedures for the safeguards required by this article shall be followed with respect to source or special fissionable material whether it is being produced, processed or used in any principal nuclear facility or is outside any such facility. The safeguards required by this article shall be applied to all source or special fissionable material in all peaceful nuclear activities within the territory of such State, under its jurisdiction, or carried out under its control anywhere.

article II and III, read it...

agitprop according to you, it's actually just a question, a very logical and simple one by the way, that requires an answer, why can Israel possess wMD while Iraq nor North-Korea can not? Both are not recognised by the world as nuclear powers...

I searched for websites but there are very few, altough it's a sensational story. The rest of your ranting (something about john birch society, etc.) is as usual not comprehensible and not related to the subject..., what are you talking about?

I'm not an Israel hater, but I hate the political establishment in Israel, that's correct.

"Also you didn't answer my question. Who does not ferociously protect their nuclear secrets? Wouldn't YOU, dear heart, be first in line screaming for Israeli regime change if they ever accidently let slip their own secrets? Of course you would.

Remember, there is no room for reality with ideologues."

calm down please. Seems like you prefere to hide the truth if it can be used against the israeli government... exactly the same you reproach the regime of Saddam or Syria...

your last sentence is true for both sides. The Bush-government idielogues are also very distanced from reality...

**Mediocrates** · 05-05-2003, 07:05 AM

Do you know what the word part NON means, in English? You can't have it both ways you flaming ziphead.

You can't say they ARE a nuclear power and then apply the part of a treaty applies to NON nuclear countries while at the same time ignoring the part that applies to nuclear countries.

Reading is Fundamental.

Israelite-Tribe · 05-05-2003, 12:09 PM

Takeo, a simple dumb but true answer to why Israel is allowed to carry these WMD?

SIMPLY BECAUSE IT WAS CREATED BY A JEW AND JEW = ISRAEL AS ALL OF YOU SAY BECAUSE WE OF COURSE PRACTICE APARTHEID? RIGHT??? RIGHT?? ... SO WE ARE ALLOWED SO shut it plz ABOUT ISRAEL NOT BEING ABLE TO HAVE WMD I HATE THESE PEOPLE ... A JEW CREATED IT SO thats it!

takeo · 05-05-2003, 12:16 PM

did you take your medicines? Jewish or non-Jewish is not the issue here, Israel is a state as any other, and I STILL don't know why Iraq can't have WMD and Israel can.

You can't say they ARE a nuclear power and then apply the part of a treaty applies to NON nuclear countries while at the same time ignoring the part that applies to nuclear countries.

actually Israel is not RECOGNISED as a nuclear power by the threaty so it is considered a non-nuclear power, not permitted to possess, acquire, produce, proliferate or test nuclear weapons...

**Mediocrates** · 05-05-2003, 12:28 PM

So proceed from that basis - you still can't have it both ways, sorry. You atr living in a dream world if you think you can.

Your argument is rhetorical you want us to make your points for you.

danholo · 05-05-2003, 12:44 PM

It's not about who can have 'em. It's about who is a threat with those weapons. I really don't understand takeo equating Saddam with Israel.

I'd actually prefer that no one had nukes, mind you, but I'd rather see Israel with nukes than a crazy guy like Saddam or Kim Jong Il.
But Israel having nukes doesn't serve them any advantage, so if it has some, it should get rid of them. I've seen Dimona. I remember it being some kind of dome. And like any military facility, it's guarded and pictures are not allowed.

richcrassus · 05-05-2003, 05:49 PM

What it all comes down too is that most sane people in society and politics know israel has WMD for defence, and arabs have WMD to attack israel one day.
Thats why Syria the cunning arab state wants to mid east to be free from WMD because that it will have a better chance or beating and destroying israel in another war one day. Syria dosent care about the environment and stuff like that, all it wants is for israel to have no WMD so it can destroy it, also even if syria signed a declatation like that, it would secretely keep some of its own WMD as well anyway.

I have a good idea, how about banning WMD from the mid east, including israel, that have USA inspectors comming in 1/yr to see if all sides ar complying, and if syria has them than the US is allowed to do with syria as they wish, a number of choises are
1.)attack syria and impose deadly food sanctions on them
2.) Give syria to israel and let it be called israel(its ours anyway, syria is betwen the red sea and the euphrates, thats what god promised us, all that land between the red sea and euphrates.)
, oh and the same goes for other arab countries as well, if egypt were to sign a treaty like that and it was found to still have WMD a few yrs down the track it shoulo give back the sinai to israel, and if jordan violates the treaty it sould take all the PALS no questions asked, and also it should give up more land along the dead sea, jordan side to israel, i think thats fair.