Black Day for Israel

takeo · 05-25-2003, 05:49 AM

ibrodsky just confirmed all my suspicions about the motives of the israeli government, I think they think in a similar way.

let's summarise the latest post of Ibrodsky:

we (the hawkish zionist rightwing opposed to a negociated settlement) should use this roadmap to our own advantage, how?
Let's accept this plan, and let's hope that the palestinians will not succeed to end terror, in that case they'll be more isolated than ever, er even better, let's hope that the efforts of the PA will lead to a civil war...
But even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments. this will of course start the terrorsm all over again which means that the peaceprocess will be death anyway.

"Israel can always rip up the "roadmap" just like the Palestinians ripped up the Oslo agreements. The key thing is that Israel must not allow itself to be fully sucked in to this charade. I don't think Sharon is that naive. Say "Yes," let the U.S. pressure the Palestinians into suppressing terrorist groups, and see what happens.

It just might precipitate a Palestinian civil war if we are lucky."

this is so cynical that it sickens me. it confirms my opinion that the rightwing and the terrorists are allies in prohibiting a two-state solution. "les extrÃ¨mes se touchent"

Am Yisrael · 05-25-2003, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by takeo But even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments. this will of course start the terrorsm all over again which means that the peaceprocess will be death anyway.

You really produce some amazingly delusioned posts. Have you ever thought about a career as a propogandist?

takeo · 05-25-2003, 06:06 AM

You can "Garantee" that the intifada will stop because they wont be occupied by Israel. Doesnt mean terrorism will stop... in fact I reckon all those terrorists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc) will join together and find new ways of killing Jews ie. WMD, Hezbola type army etc.

hesbollah is not a serious threat to israel, hesbollah doesn't organise suicide-bombings killing innocents on marketplaces all over israel. it certainly will be a change for the better.

This is what I think we should do..

I propose the PA to be demolished and all terror organisations in Palestinian areas to be smashed. Yasser Arafat should be not be a responsibility of Israel and he should be exiled but terrorist leaders should be brought to justice in Israel. The West Bank should be returned into Jordans hands and the Gaza Strip to Egypt where both countries at the moment have reasonably good relations with Israel. Jerusalem should be in Israels hand but should be accesible to all Arabs. Jewish religious sites will be in Jordans hands and should be accesible for Jews in Israel. Non-religious Jewish settlements should be dismantled and those living there brought into Israel to live. Israel should allow religious Arabs to live in Jerusalem in return Jordan should allow religious Jews to live near holy sites in the Yesha.

A serious implementation of religious tolerance via use of education should be implemented in Israel, Jordan and Egypt for halting Islamic extremists inciting the population and aid relations between Jews and Arabs. Israel MUST try and destroy the barrier between Ashkenazi, Sepharadi and Arabs in Israel by providing more aid to areas like "Neve Shalom". I think Israeli Arabs are too "far" from Israeli society and they need to be exposed more to western culture. If they are exposed to Western culture the Arab birth rate will decrease aswell. I think the most important way to gain peace in the ME is via religious tolerance, education, and sorting out the issue of holy sites. This roadmap has hardly proved that it will set out to do this which is why I think its a load of bollocks.

On the issue of Palestinian refugees this can be sorted out by international effort. Its been too long now that Palestinian leader have left their population "under the foot" in order to incite people and gain international aid and solidarity. Im sure some nice Jewish philanthopist will solve the Palestinian refugee problem by creating work in these areas. On the issue of Palestinian return, I think that this is an issue that can be addressed AFTER terrorism and religious hatred has subsided.

I just cant understand why so many people treat the Palestinian Authority as a serious negotiator. The thought of a country ruled by Yasser Arafat with Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc etc still at large is sickening.

interesting plan, but not realistic. Jordanians will never accept the westbank, which would make Jordan virtually a palestinian country and threaten the position of the hashemite regime even more. Palestinians will not accept Jordanian and Egyptian rule either i think.
But you're right that religious tolerance should be enhanced in the whole region. But this can only happen if the conflict ends, psychological problems will be solved later and slower, as always (for example yugoslavia). In the meanwhile the refugee-problem, jerusalem etc. should be adressed as well.
after visiting Iran i'm pretty confident that religious intolerance will be solved sooner or later. Iranians live under a fundamentalist regime and are one of the most tolerant people one can imagine, also people in Syria and Jordan do not like fundamentalism. in egypt fundamentalism is a way of resistance to the ruling elite unfortunately, the same in Saoudi arabia i guess.
in israel religious fundamentalists and extremists get more support because of the war going on.
if there wasn't a war the national party and the likes would not get as much votes as they do nowadays, in fact if oslo succeeded the left would now still be in power.

The issue of Jerusalem, Jewish holy sites, and the "right of return" for Palestinians.

all right, those should be included.
the jewish Holy sites is easy to solve, Israeli should be able to visit those sites in all security.
Jersusalem will be divided according to the 1967 border, perhaps a few adjustments that'll include Jewish quarters in the East into Israel, while the Arab quarters will be part of the new state.
The right of return is the most difficult question, but even this can be solved. Israel needs foreign labour, certainly when its economy will expand after a peacedeal, and palestinians need work. palestinians living in israel will become moderate because they have new opportunities to live a good life(as happened to the israeli palestinians decades ago, those aren't terrorists)

tandem · 05-25-2003, 06:11 AM

>>>'the palestinians cannot live under this situation anymore, they will do reals efforts as they have already done (changing their system of gvt) to get the roadmap going. Of course some organizations, like Hamas will do all they can to oppose peace efforts "unless israel makes importants concessions" they said.'<<<

hamas, islamic jihad, al-aksa brigades, PFLP, and the likes, are committed to the destruction of israel. they are not interested in peace. they only care about eliminating the jewish state and establishing an islamic regime instead of it

as for abu mazen, i wouldn't be too optimistic if i were you. he is NOT a popular leader. the palestinian people do NOT trust him because he is not a well-known "figure" in the PA. the palestinian people, with help from islamic militants, will do everything in their power to undermine him. arafat is already doing everything in his power to undermine him, which is why the israelis are skeptical that this road map will lead anywhere

this roadmap wouldn't work not because of israel, but because of the palestinians. the palestinians have not carried out any real reforms. arafat is still in charge of the PA, not abu mazen

in fact, only a few days ago, arafat instructed his security officers in the west bank not to co-operate with abu mazen. i can assure you there will be more roadblocks coming from arafat

as for israel -- israel accepted peace long ago when it signed the oslo accords, and the israelis have actually delivered on that pledge. they allowed arafat to come back from exile and rule the territories. they allowed him to establish his own security forces. they allowed him to establish his own government. all israel got in return was terror and bloodshed. you know, before the oslo accords were signed, things were relatively quiet. after the accords, everything is a mess (for israel, that is). maybe that's why we should reverse everything

>>>'this israeli gvt is opposed to the roadmap. But they cannot oppose frankly because of US pressure. So they will try to 'make as if they were doing something' and in fact do nothing. Not even really freezing colonization. Anyway, there will be bombings and each bombing will give 3 weeks of delay to the likoud. The 'name of the game' for the Likoud is "drag your feet 5 months"...'<<<

yes, the israelis are opposed to it. the road map is flawed. it does not address israel's security needs

this road map is strictly focusing on the creation of a palestinian state while totally ignoring the fact that hardly any serious reforms were carried out the palestinians

the regime that is responsible for all the terror and bloodshed is still in power today and it is doing everything in its power to undermine the moderates who genuinely seek peace

furthermore, there is no such thing as "colonization". this land belongs to the jewish people. if not for the past 3000 years, the arabs officially lost this land in a war that they started nearly 36 years ago. stop bitching. it's time to move on and accept defeat

>>>'Last thing: the owner of this site (Newsguy / Michael Rand) will actively (covertly at best) support this anti-peace policy.'<<<

so what? he's entitled to have an opinion, and its got nothing with him being the owner of this site. some people here might not agree with your viewpoint, but at least you have the opportunity to say what you want and not be censored

Am Yisrael · 05-25-2003, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by takeo
[B]hesbollah is not a serious threat to israel, hesbollah doesn't organise suicide-bombings killing innocents on marketplaces all over israel. it certainly will be a change for the better.

You are right. But Hezbola has limited capacity to kill Jews because of Israels occupation of the Golan heights. If Hezbola had the capacity to launch missiles that fall within the range of Tel-Aviv and other major Israeli cities then more Jews would be dead. Imagine this situation...

-Israel stops occupying the West Bank.
-The PA fail to stop Palestinian terrorism.
-Israel cannot move in to stop this terrorism.
-Shipments of large WMDS come in from Arab countries.
-Suddenly BOOM. Tel-Aviv gets hit by 50 scuds with biological/chemical properties.

interesting plan, but not realistic. Jordanians will never accept the westbank, which would make Jordan virtually a palestinian country and threaten the position of the hashemite regime even more.

This is where the religious/cultural tolerance issue comes into impact. If the Arabs in Jordan can become tolerant of one another then Jordan will gladly accept the West Bank because it will be a big asset to the economy.

Palestinians will not accept Jordanian and Egyptian rule either i think.

I doubt they will uprise against Jordanians and Egyptians as they do with Israelis.

But you're right that religious tolerance should be enhanced in the whole region. But this can only happen if the conflict ends, psychological problems will be solved later and slower, as always (for example yugoslavia).

I completely disagree.

the jewish Holy sites is easy to solve, Israeli should be able to visit those sites in all security.

Sounds very easy...

Jersusalem will be divided according to the 1967 border, perhaps a few adjustments that'll include Jewish quarters in the East into Israel, while the Arab quarters will be part of the new state.

I disagree totally. This is just asking for a religious war from Jews.

**Mediocrates** · 05-25-2003, 07:16 AM

So here is #18 summarized:

Leave all terrorists in place
Give up all of Yesha
Give up all of E Jerusalem
Give up parts of W Jeruslaem as well
Open the floodgates to Palestinan day labor
Give up all Jeswish holy sites, because 'that should be easy'
No concessions or compromise on anything from the PA

takeo · 05-25-2003, 08:12 AM

You are right. But Hezbola has limited capacity to kill Jews because of Israels occupation of the Golan heights. If Hezbola had the capacity to launch missiles that fall within the range of Tel-Aviv and other major Israeli cities then more Jews would be dead. Imagine this situation...

The Golan heights wouldn't make much difference. It wouldn't be easier to reach tel aviv from the Golan heights than from Southern Lebanon.

-Israel stops occupying the West Bank.
-The PA fail to stop Palestinian terrorism.
-Israel cannot move in to stop this terrorism.
-Shipments of large WMDS come in from Arab countries.
-Suddenly BOOM. Tel-Aviv gets hit by 50 scuds with biological/chemical properties.

sounds like the calamity-theory of Iraq, a country that even didn't have any WMD... and even if one country gave WMD to the palestinians, very unlikely that they would ever throw it on Israel, as they know very well that this would annihilate their palestinian state and probably their life as well. It would have to be organised by the state, hamas doesn't have the know-how or possibilities to launch such rockets, and this is really extremely unlikely.
In theory the hesbollah would have the capacity to launch such missiles, but that's never going to happen.

my solid prediction is that once the palestinians have their own country they will not jeopardise everything by attacking Israel. even lthe hesbollah, which never concluded any peacedeal with israel, have not openly attacked israeli citizens since the withdrawel.

This is where the religious/cultural tolerance issue comes into impact. If the Arabs in Jordan can become tolerant of one another then Jordan will gladly accept the West Bank because it will be a big asset to the economy.

Tolerance won't solve this problem, and democracy will even worsen the problem. with the palestinians become more than 90% of the population any democratisation would mean making jordan a palestinian ruled country... of course this isn't necessarily a problem, except that you will have created a palestine much more powerfull than the original palestine you refused to accept...

and about economical asset: the Westbank is an economical cemetary and a burden for anyone taking it over. without massive foreign investment this won't change so soon.

I doubt they will uprise against Jordanians and Egyptians as they do with Israelis.

no, at least not in the same way (except if they would rule them the same way israel does) but still i'm sure sooner or later it would create problems.

I completely disagree.

and still i'm right, that's how things go after every war in each country i visited (Guatemala, lebanon, cambodia, yugoslavia) , first a setttlement and than the long process of mental healing.

Sounds very easy...

well it is. They could turn the sites into tourist attractions and make money, i'm sure that would be an interesting prospective, and the hate against israel will slowly disappear once the oppression disappeared and israel will be looked upon as an interesting trade partner and a source of cash...

I disagree totally. This is just asking for a religious war from Jews.

why exactly?
Jerusalem is both the palestinian and israeli capital, that's just a fact.

Leave all terrorists in place
Give up all of Yesha
Give up all of E Jerusalem
Give up parts of W Jeruslaem as well
Open the floodgates to Palestinan day labor
Give up all Jeswish holy sites, because 'that should be easy'
No concessions or compromise on anything from the PA

no, not Western jerusalem, that's not required by the un-resolution, and not demanded by the palestinians.
Yes, the pa already made a huge concession by giving 80% of the original palestinian land to Israel... the remaining becomes palestine. the pa also will have the duty to garantee israeli.

besides dismantling the colonies isn't etnic cleansing, noone of those colonists lived there before 1970, not a single colony is in accordance with international law.

Am Yisrael · 05-25-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by takeo
[B]The Golan heights wouldn't make much difference. It wouldn't be easier to reach tel aviv from the Golan heights than from Southern Lebanon.

Yes and whats your point???? I said that Hezbola dont attack major Israeli cities because Israel is in control of the Golan which limits the range they can attack. However if Hezbola had an attack range of 10 miles (West Bank - Coast area) WITH a large gradient they could easily launch a widescale attack. The question is... would Terrorists have the bottle to do this? You obviously think that as soon as Israel gives the Palastinians a state all this will magically stop.

sounds like the calamity-theory of Iraq, a country that even didn't have any WMD... and even if one country gave WMD to the palestinians, very unlikely that they would ever throw it on Israel, as they know very well that this would annihilate their palestinian state and probably their life as well.

History repeats itself all the time so I wouldnt be surprised if some Jihadists decide to start a holy war by doing this.

It would have to be organised by the state, hamas doesn't have the know-how or possibilities to launch such rockets, and this is really extremely unlikely.
In theory the hesbollah would have the capacity to launch such missiles, but that's never going to happen.

You really have no understanding of any Palestinian terrorist organisations. At the moment the Palestinians use "homemade" ballistic missiles (Kassam) to fire at Israeli towns/ cities. These missiles have a 10km range. Now here are some weapons currently circulating around Arab lands that will eventually get into Palestinian terrorists hands. Ababil-50 (50km range; possible chemical/warhead use), Sajeel 60 (60km range; possible warhead use), FROG-7 (65km; rocket/warhead use), Laith 90 (90km; warhead use). Many of these have been manufactured in the past by Iraq and Syria and can be easily, quickly, and accurately deployed across a range of 10-20km.

my solid prediction is that once the palestinians have their own country they will not jeopardise everything by attacking Israel.

This statement shows your ignorance. ALL of the Palestinian terrorists have vowed again and again that they will not stop until Israel is destroyed. You want to ignore their words... thats your damn choice. As far as im concerned... if you are so blind as to not realise that terrorism against Israel will not stop until either the terrorists are destroyed OR Israel is destroyed... then I class you as an enemy of the state of Israel.

Tolerance won't solve this problem, and democracy will even worsen the problem. with the palestinians become more than 90% of the population any democratisation would mean making jordan a palestinian ruled country... of course this isn't necessarily a problem, except that you will have created a palestine much more powerfull than the original palestine you refused to accept...

I thought you were keen on seeing the establishment of a Palestinian state?

and about economical asset: the Westbank is an economical cemetary and a burden for anyone taking it over. without massive foreign investment this won't change so soon.

Well then I guess the alternative is for Israel to keep it if the Arabs dont want it....

and still i'm right, that's how things go after every war in each country i visited (Guatemala, lebanon, cambodia, yugoslavia) , first a setttlement and than the long process of mental healing.

A real expert huh? I stick to my words.

well it is. They could turn the sites into tourist attractions and make money, i'm sure that would be an interesting prospective, and the hate against israel will slowly disappear once the oppression disappeared and israel will be looked upon as an interesting trade partner and a source of cash...

Ok they can turn Judaisms most holy sites into disneyland and make as much profit as they wish... and we will take down the dome of the rock, sell the gold, and use it to improve the impovorished Jews who suffered economically because of Arab terrorism.

why exactly?
Jerusalem is both the palestinian and israeli capital, that's just a fact.

This is a stupid comment. Do you really think Jews will want to give up Zion? Do you think that Muslims will give up Mecca and Medina because someone else says its their third most holy site? We already have a holy war from Islam... lets leave it at that. The WORST thing that could happen is that Jerusalem gets given away. It will be world-war 3 I "garantee".

**Mediocrates** · 05-25-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by takeo
no, not Western jerusalem, that's not required by the un-resolution,

By you though if I read it correctly.

and not demanded by the palestinians.

not all of them just Fatah, Hamas and the PA.

[quote]Yes, the pa already made a huge concession by giving 80% of the original palestinian land to Israel[/quote

are you in fact an idiot? do you simply repeat your own prattle over and over until even you believe it?

... the remaining becomes palestine. the pa also will have the duty to garantee israeli. (safety....?)

This was a key requirement of Oslo. There is zero expectation that this would be done any better now.

besides dismantling the colonies isn't etnic cleansing, noone of those colonists lived there before 1970, not a single colony is in accordance with international law.

So if an international body or say a country says it is not against the law to hunt down Jews that's ok with you? Thanks for clearing that up. Your Jew Free Palestinian paradise is no different from all of the other final solutions.

It's ok you don't have to publically admit it, I understand.

ibrodsky · 05-25-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by takeo
ibrodsky just confirmed all my suspicions about the motives of the israeli government, I think they think in a similar way.

let's summarise the latest post of Ibrodsky:

we (the hawkish zionist rightwing opposed to a negociated settlement) should use this roadmap to our own advantage, how?
Let's accept this plan, and let's hope that the palestinians will not succeed to end terror, in that case they'll be more isolated than ever, er even better, let's hope that the efforts of the PA will lead to a civil war...

But even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments. this will of course start the terrorsm all over again which means that the peaceprocess will be death anyway.

this is so cynical that it sickens me. it confirms my opinion that the rightwing and the terrorists are allies in prohibiting a two-state solution. "les extrÃ¨mes se touchent"

Please don't lie. I never said or even implied "let's hope that the palestinians will not succeed to end terror."

Nor did I ever say or imply "even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments." Another one of your patented lies.

I would love to see the Palestinians end their terrorism, but I am not as naive as you are regarding their intentions. However, I am always ready to give them a chance to do it--that was the main point of my post.

**NewsGuy** · 05-25-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by yehudi
- the palestinians cannot live under this situation anymore, they will do reals efforts as they have already done (changing their system of gvt) to get the roadmap going.

A simple question: Why do you think that the Palestinians' "real efforts," haven't included giving up their national goal of destroying the State of Israel after murdering each and every Jew?

- this israeli gvt is opposed to the roadmap. But they cannot oppose frankly because of US pressure... The 'name of the game' for the Likoud is "drag your feet 5 months"...

Ummm... Now that the government has approved the road map, what do you have to say for yourself?

Last thing: the owner of this site (Newsguy / Michael Rand) will actively (covertly at best) support this anti-peace policy.

I do support realistic measures to achieve peace in the Middle East, but I do not support national suicide. That's why:

I cannot support any plan that calls for a fully-armed Palestinian terrorist state to be created.

I cannot support any plan that does not have a specific mechanism to punish the Palestinians for non-compliance.

I cannot support any plan that might result in the injection of millions more Palestinian enemies into the heart of Israel through the ruse known as the Palestinian "Right of Return."

But regardless of the particulars, make no mistake -- the Palestinians will never stop their terrorism and will not disarm their terrorist groups, so none of this road map will actually be implemented, other than some concessions to be made by Israel to get this useless process started.

yehudi · 05-26-2003, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
A simple question: Why do you think that the Palestinians' "real efforts," haven't included giving up their national goal of destroying the State of Israel after murdering each and every Jew?

This question has beeen answered hundreds of times here. You simply refuse to recognize the answer.

My analysis is the present situation more confortable to you than taking the risk of changing.

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Ummm... Now that the government has approved the road map, what do you have to say for yourself?

I say the time has come for the supposedly Pro-israeli Newsguy to support the Israeli governement.

Newsguy being himself a Likoudnik, that should not be hard for him to roll back his sleeves and get things going toward a peace - for a change -.

Except if he is in fact more extreme-right than the Likoud. Except if in fact he wants W Bush to fail. Except if the prospect of changing from a logic of colonization to a logic of peace makes him frantically backpedaling.

.

Moskal' · 05-26-2003, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I don't like the "roadmap." but where does it guarantee the dissolution of the Israeli government?

It guarantees continued warfare by not defining the 'right of return' as impossible. Israel gives up WB and Gaza to a hostile regime and gets nothing, not even 'peace' in return. Therefore the hostilities will go on into eternity and will simply destabilize the region further (as every Israeli concession so far did).

**Mediocrates** · 05-26-2003, 04:33 AM

As a performance based tool it represents nothing because it only establishes performance based guidelines on Israel. Those are quantifiable measures: stop expansion for example. But on the PA side "making an effort to......" and you see the problem. There are in fact

No Success Criteria

You can claim anything is an 'effort'. That's why the PA accepted this so readily and that's why the Roadmap partners pressed so hard for it. Because it guarantees that the PA continues to be a terrorist state.

Sharon is throwing the dice on this one. He's betting he can keep a semi lid on terrorism through the end of his term while going out in a blaze of 'peace'. I would guess he figures he can stay in office through his term because he was reelected under a hail of Israeli deaths before. The problem will be though to maintain security through what is clearly seen as a withdrawal from parts of Yesha. I would suspect that we will see an increase in terrorist attacks as Hamas views the situation as having the Israelis on the run. The IDF's ability to root out terrorism will be blunted by the Roadmap and attacks will increase.

Terror apologists like yehudi and tak will claim the same thing they always claim. It's the Jews' fault. They aren't surrenduring fast enough to avoid their own murder. And they will simply pull the next series of demands out of their butts: unlimited repatriation, unilateral surrender of the totality of Jerusalem and so on.

The reason the Roadmap is meaningless is because the people who support it simply see it as a stepping stone to the end of Israel. Ask them, they'll tell you. They'll tell you all about international law and the illegal establishment of Israel and what not and will not be happy until it is gone. Antizionism really IS what it sounds like. It is a belief that Israel must not exist.