The ‘Israelist’ Dilemma

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by earth.observer
Perhaps you should read what I wrote. I clearly state that I have been in close proximity to several suicide attacks.

You all seem to be quite comfortable living in America or Britain, divorced totally from the reality on the ground.

The Israeli and Palestinian peoples are sick of the conflict and sick of the old ideas. You chap reject any new ideas that come along, simply because you are all too narrowminded to seem outside your own tunnel vision.

You present yourself as someone with progressive ideas, but here you are resorting to logical fallacies.

We have several Israeli participants, and many of us have lived in Israel. Others here have narrowly escaped terrorist attacks.

While those who live in Israel today deserve our admiration and support, one's place of residence does not determine the correctness of their views.

You are wrong that we reject any new ideas that come along. Some of us reject your idea because it is simply an old and discredited idea dressed up to look new.

The majority of Israel's supporters would like to see Israel living in peace with her neighbors. Unfortunately, many Palestinians and Palestinian supporters reject that idea. You have fooled yourself into believing that Israel's enemies don't really want to "Drive the Jews into the sea" as Nasser once boasted. Just because we don't believe peace is something Israel can attain through unilateral action, that doesn't mean we aren't for peace. It just means we are more realistic than you are.

[Mediocrates]

I deeply appreciate and understand the fatigue and apprehension Israelis live under every day. You are of course correct, it's your country and we don't have to live there. We will help you however we can, even if you don't always want our help. But if in the end Israelis decide that their best long run outcome is to subliminate their own goals to those of the Palestinians then so be it. We'll still try to support you. At least I will.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I deeply appreciate and understand the fatigue and apprehension Israelis live under every day. You are of course correct, it's your country and we don't have to live there. We will help you however we can, even if you don't always want our help. But if in the end Israelis decide that their best long run outcome is to subliminate their own goals to those of the Palestinians then so be it. We'll still try to support you. At least I will.

I agree. The only difference in my case is that I will be an Israeli by middle of 2008 (5768).

[gev]

Originally posted by earth.observer
Perhaps you should read what I wrote. I clearly state that I have been in close proximity to several suicide attacks.

You all seem to be quite comfortable living in America or Britain, divorced totally from the reality on the ground.

The Israeli and Palestinian peoples are sick of the conflict and sick of the old ideas. You chap reject any new ideas that come along, simply because you are all too narrowminded to seem outside your own tunnel vision.

I agree with many of your points, so does the maority of Israelies I presume.
The only thing I don't agree is the part of the 10 years of terror attacks. correct if I'm wrong about it, but it seems that you suggest we don't fight terrorism, and just let it fade away naturally because of normalization.
if it is true, it is dangerous, and it was tried before and failed - my conclusion from the failure of Oslo is that Terrorism must be erradicated before or in the initial steps of a peace process, not after the peace process, it doesn't work and the risk is high, I think that with good will and help of the world a palestinian leadership it is also possible.

Zionism is a very vage concept that has a goal, but do not really ellaborate how to get to that goal. I persume that in the Oslo days you were omftarble in being a Zionist, and now you are not, and if sharon and Abu-Mazen starts a new peace process, it is OK to be a zionist again? you see the problem in your definitions?

As I see it, Your "Israelism" is actually an ellaboration of how to accompish Zionism goals. Zionism is is preceived diffrently by Israel right-winged, leftists, center and jews in general. all have diffrent Ideas of what Zionism is, but what they see in common is the true Zionism in my opinion: building a strong Israel to be a safe haven to all Jews, encourage all Jews to live in Israel, protect Jews all over the world - do you agree with those goals?


All that said, I do agree that Israel did not defined for itself where is it going, Where is wants to be years from now, questions like where are the borders, and others. Although it is known what will the majority of Israelies would answer to these questions, formally, they left unanswered.

[jewbyc]

Originally posted by earth.observer
I see a good debate emerging here, and that was a key idea expressed by the article.

Am Yisrael:

In another time and place, Zionism had a purpose. But, that purpose now has mostly diminished, and Zionism has become a curse around our necks. Israel is a powerful state. The real threats to Israel are limited, as was shown by the Iraq war. Zionism instead has become the greatest impediment to our existence. Our enemies view it as expansionist and repressive, and I for one agree with them. I agree that Zionism was not originally racist, but it has certainly become a racist doctrine. I see this on a daily basis.

The reason for this is its hijacking by the extremists who refuse to see beyond their own narrow agenda. I call it narrow because it refuses to accept the diversity of views within Israel and in the region and the world. It also refuses to accept that the world has changed. To a very great extent Zionism today lives in the past (a terrible past of genocide and persecution) and refuses to look ahead.

Also, and this is a critical issue, Zionism is blind to the great injustice suffered by the Palestinians in being forced from their homes and living in camps for so many years (perhaps 55 years ago I would understand that blindness, but not today). The Arab world was clearly negligant in not caring for the Palestinians, but Zionism was equally negligent in not seeking an acceptable solution.

Alexbn:

Islamic terror (as it exists today) is hurting our morale, but in reality each attack is a pin in our flesh. Such pins are often extremely painful, but the greatest danger come from infection - that infection is racism, militarism, and repression.

If you feel anger at the death of Israelis, I ask you to image how a Palestinian feels at the death of a Palestinian, perhaps a neighbor, or a close relative. Is their anger likely to be any less than your own? I could add some numbers here to show how the number of Palestinians killed, wounded, or living in poverty and repression since 1948 is significantly higher than the proportional number of Israelis.

But, instead I ask you to consider the differences between a Palestinian mother and an Israeli mother (perhaps there are significant cultural differences in the response to the death of a child, hence the Palestinian mother of a suicide bomber dancing with knives, but you will find that the grief is the same). As for your concern at living in terror for another 10 to 20 years, I believe that is a better alternative to the one we face at present. We have lived in terror for 1000 years. What is another 10 to 20 years compared to that?

ibrodsky:

I do not believe that I am confused. The ideas stated in the article are crystal clear. I agree that I am creating a new reality - but did Zionism not do the same 100 or so years ago? If we do not change, both Israelis and the Palestinians will continue to live under threat for the forseeable future, and both the Palestinians and Israelis will continue to suffer for the forseeable future. These are unacceptable.

Regarding your lack of concern for the poor and weak, we have forgotten that Zionism was created to address the suffering of the poor and weak. A non-racist Zionism would refuse to differentiate between the poor and weak of one society and the poor and weak of another. A non-racist Zionism would accept its close affinity with parallel philosophies struggling to address the suffering of the poor and weak of another society. I don't care for doctrines that seek to pass off the problems of its causing by seeking to "explain how the "Palestinians" are different from the Egyptians or Jordanians".

Oslo was admittedly far from perfect, but it was a process. I recall the claims in the 1970s and 1980s that the Arab states were refusing to negotiate (the three no's). However, as soon as the Arabs were ready to negotiate, the Israeli right said no. I am sure that you agree: talking is better than fighting. When a chance (no matter how small) came about, the Israeli right rejected that chance. I am sure you agree that terrorism and exaggerated nationalism are a predictable response to decades of languishing in camps with no hope for a better future and repression by a foreign power.

I disagree that my article is self-indulgent. My dilemma is based on hope for a better future for all. I also disagree that this is an attempt to insulate myself from those with different values - my article is an attempt to compromise between the two extremes of Israeli society in order to address the future. I certainly do see the current situation as the spectactular failure of the old formula - the Zionist formula has refused to adapt to the modern world.

The new formula is risking everything for peace, but it has not yet been tried with any measure of longevity - as soon as the going got tough, abandoning the new formula was the easiest solution. The Israeli right rejected the new formula outright - never giving it a chance even once, and predeterming its failure from the outset.

Others: I will respond later.

I take exception to one thing you said and that is that zionism is to blame for the Palestinian refugees. There is Only one group of people that should be held accountable and that is all the Arab nations who have used the refugee's as a political tool against Israel. Israel took in all the jews that were forced out of arab countries the arabs could have done the same but instead they have been used as politcal pawns. Read Howard Sachar book "History of Israel from the rise of zionism to our time" if you want a fresh perspective on Israel and zionism, but be warned its not for the casual reader.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I deeply appreciate and understand the fatigue and apprehension Israelis live under every day. You are of course correct, it's your country and we don't have to live there. We will help you however we can, even if you don't always want our help. But if in the end Israelis decide that their best long run outcome is to subliminate their own goals to those of the Palestinians then so be it. We'll still try to support you. At least I will.

I don't think earth.observer speaks for the majority of Israelis by a long shot.

I'm not sure what "subliminate their own goals to those of the Palestinians" means, but I doubt a majority of Israelis would surrender to terrorism--the one word that best describes the Palestinians' project.

[jewbyc]

Originally posted by earth.observer
Perhaps you should read what I wrote. I clearly state that I have been in close proximity to several suicide attacks.

You all seem to be quite comfortable living in America or Britain, divorced totally from the reality on the ground.

The Israeli and Palestinian peoples are sick of the conflict and sick of the old ideas. You chap reject any new ideas that come along, simply because you are all too narrowminded to seem outside your own tunnel vision.

I was on my way to the pentagon when it was hit by a jetliner so I know what terrorism feels like and I didn't blame zionism . I work in an army installation no one knew what was next at that point. I was also in Washington DC When Martin Luther King was shot now that was terror half the city was on fire by night fall I didnt blame zionism then either my point is human beings commited these acts. The Idea of Zionism was to resettle the holy land so Jews would have a home where they could be jews and not be murdered for it that is the bottom line everything else is manucha.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I don't think earth.observer speaks for the majority of Israelis by a long shot.

I'm not sure what "subliminate their own goals to those of the Palestinians" means, but I doubt a majority of Israelis would surrender to terrorism--the one word that best describes the Palestinians' project.

I don't think rational people think of suicide. They think that this will be the last or nearly the last sacrifice or if it's not then it is somehow ennobling. That's what I mean by subliminate - a kind of perverted potlatch (are people familiar with that term?)

[jewbyc]

Originally posted by earth.observer
I see a good debate emerging here, and that was a key idea expressed by the article.

Am Yisrael:

In another time and place, Zionism had a purpose. But, that purpose now has mostly diminished, and Zionism has become a curse around our necks. Israel is a powerful state. The real threats to Israel are limited, as was shown by the Iraq war. Zionism instead has become the greatest impediment to our existence. Our enemies view it as expansionist and repressive, and I for one agree with them. I agree that Zionism was not originally racist, but it has certainly become a racist doctrine. I see this on a daily basis.

The reason for this is its hijacking by the extremists who refuse to see beyond their own narrow agenda. I call it narrow because it refuses to accept the diversity of views within Israel and in the region and the world. It also refuses to accept that the world has changed. To a very great extent Zionism today lives in the past (a terrible past of genocide and persecution) and refuses to look ahead.

Also, and this is a critical issue, Zionism is blind to the great injustice suffered by the Palestinians in being forced from their homes and living in camps for so many years (perhaps 55 years ago I would understand that blindness, but not today). The Arab world was clearly negligant in not caring for the Palestinians, but Zionism was equally negligent in not seeking an acceptable solution.

Alexbn:

Islamic terror (as it exists today) is hurting our morale, but in reality each attack is a pin in our flesh. Such pins are often extremely painful, but the greatest danger come from infection - that infection is racism, militarism, and repression.

If you feel anger at the death of Israelis, I ask you to image how a Palestinian feels at the death of a Palestinian, perhaps a neighbor, or a close relative. Is their anger likely to be any less than your own? I could add some numbers here to show how the number of Palestinians killed, wounded, or living in poverty and repression since 1948 is significantly higher than the proportional number of Israelis.

But, instead I ask you to consider the differences between a Palestinian mother and an Israeli mother (perhaps there are significant cultural differences in the response to the death of a child, hence the Palestinian mother of a suicide bomber dancing with knives, but you will find that the grief is the same). As for your concern at living in terror for another 10 to 20 years, I believe that is a better alternative to the one we face at present. We have lived in terror for 1000 years. What is another 10 to 20 years compared to that?

ibrodsky:

I do not believe that I am confused. The ideas stated in the article are crystal clear. I agree that I am creating a new reality - but did Zionism not do the same 100 or so years ago? If we do not change, both Israelis and the Palestinians will continue to live under threat for the forseeable future, and both the Palestinians and Israelis will continue to suffer for the forseeable future. These are unacceptable.

Regarding your lack of concern for the poor and weak, we have forgotten that Zionism was created to address the suffering of the poor and weak. A non-racist Zionism would refuse to differentiate between the poor and weak of one society and the poor and weak of another. A non-racist Zionism would accept its close affinity with parallel philosophies struggling to address the suffering of the poor and weak of another society. I don't care for doctrines that seek to pass off the problems of its causing by seeking to "explain how the "Palestinians" are different from the Egyptians or Jordanians".

Oslo was admittedly far from perfect, but it was a process. I recall the claims in the 1970s and 1980s that the Arab states were refusing to negotiate (the three no's). However, as soon as the Arabs were ready to negotiate, the Israeli right said no. I am sure that you agree: talking is better than fighting. When a chance (no matter how small) came about, the Israeli right rejected that chance. I am sure you agree that terrorism and exaggerated nationalism are a predictable response to decades of languishing in camps with no hope for a better future and repression by a foreign power.

I disagree that my article is self-indulgent. My dilemma is based on hope for a better future for all. I also disagree that this is an attempt to insulate myself from those with different values - my article is an attempt to compromise between the two extremes of Israeli society in order to address the future. I certainly do see the current situation as the spectactular failure of the old formula - the Zionist formula has refused to adapt to the modern world.

The new formula is risking everything for peace, but it has not yet been tried with any measure of longevity - as soon as the going got tough, abandoning the new formula was the easiest solution. The Israeli right rejected the new formula outright - never giving it a chance even once, and predeterming its failure from the outset.

Others: I will respond later.

I think I should make one more comment. You talk as if Israel belongs only to the people living there. Every week Jews around the world recite the Shema which to me is a pledge to keep Israel in our minds and g-d in our hearts. Israel is as much a part of us as we it. I am and always will be a religious jew That is to say that is the only way myself and lot of other Jews can relate to
judaism. There is no such thing as a secular convert

[MGB8]

earth observer....why don't you just committ suicide...seriously, that's what you propose in your post.

The problem with many leftists (and rightists and all sorts of idealists) is that they don't let a silly thing like REALITY get in the way of their political theories.

REALITY - Israel was formed to be the one and only place in the world WHERE IT IS NORMAL TO BE JEWISH. Not to give the Jews a "safe haven" from violence - ITS NEVER BEEN THAT.

Its to give them a "safe-have" from ASSIMILATION. Because ASSIMILATION is on the path to the death of the Jews. From the pressure to be a christian or moslem just like everyone else.

To be the one place that is the HOME of the Jews...where they don't have to worry about being the minority that is picked on internally, where they don't have to contend with their next door neighboors christmas trees or the poll tax on non-muslims.

You completely MISS THE POINT of the existance of Israel.

Move. Or convert to Christianity. Its easier than being a Jew.

I really can't describe the feeling of disgust I'm feeling right now.

MILLIONS OF YOUR ANSCESTORS DIED because they were Jews...because of their bloodlines.

If you are too much a coward to bare the burden of being a Jew-- get the F---- OUT.

Australia? Are you kidding me?

G-d I feel sick. Does the holocaust or the diaspora or the progroms or the Inquistion or the current attacks on Jews and shulls etc. resonate at all with you?

[MGB8]

Earth observer....move away. You seem so sick of the problem. Run like the coward you are. But DO NOT DARE expose your fellow Israelis to harm you would expose them to.

ALSO, not that the majority of Palestinians ARE NOT "tired" of their war (and it is their war) at least not if THEIR POLLS can be believed.

They certainly aren't tired enough to lift a finger against Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or Arafat.

OPEN YOUR FRIGGIN EYES. Read translated Arabic newsmedia, op-ed, (NOT THE ENGLISH THAT THEY PUT OUT).

Read their friggin text books!! Look at the poll numbers, the thousands chanting death to Israel, etc.

Its hard to be a Jew - it always was and it always will be. We were "chosen" to bare a higher burden - to be compared to a higher standard...so, if its too tough for you....move to Australia and convert - it doesn't even have to be to Christianity...it can be to Budhism or Islam....

Of course, note that the reason that Christian missionaries use "Jews for Jesus" is because they understand that being a Jew is not only about religion - it is your family.

So go ahead and disown your family....what is said about the wicked son on passover...that by saying "important to you" he excludes himself, and in answer you should say "G-d redeemed ME (and not you, for surely he would not have been saved)."