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Thread: Some Christians See a 'Road Map' to End Times

  1. #1
    rferry
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    Some Christians See a 'Road Map' to End Times

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions

    June 18, 2003
    COMMENTARY

    Some Christians See a 'Road Map' to End Times
    Viewing Mideast events through a biblical lens.

    By Darrell L. Bock, Darrell L. Bock is research professor of New Testament studies at the Dallas Theological Seminary and a professor of spiritual development and culture.


    In recent years, conservative Christians across the country have grown increasingly involved in the Mideast peace process. Even though the conflict in the region is nominally one between Jews and Muslims — in which Christians appear to have less of a stake — conservative Christians have been drawn in for a variety of reasons, both biblical and practical.

    Not all of us believe the same thing, of course. Many believe that God has given much of what we call the Holy Land to Israel. Genesis 12:1-3 makes a promise of land to the seed of Abraham that became the Jewish people. In addition, God promised in the same passage that those who blessed Israel would be blessed and those who cursed Israel would be cursed.

    This promise is reaffirmed many times throughout the Bible and in the New Testament (Romans 11; Acts 3:18-22). God's commitment to Israel means that the Jewish nation has a God-given right to the land.

    The Bible predicted that one day, the nation of Israel would be reestablished in the land. When Israel declared independence in 1948, many interpreted the event to mean the beginning of the "last days" prophecy, even though many of those same Christians believe that the bulk of biblical prophecy will not be fulfilled until all or most Jews accept Jesus as the messiah.

    The logic goes that if God has given the land to Israel, then asking Israel to give away that land for peace is going against the Bible. Hence, these believers oppose any effort to give land to the Palestinians.

    Other Christians believe that just before the "last days" there will be a treaty that will give Israel peace for a time — but that the pact will ultimately break down and set off catastrophe in the Middle East. For these believers it is not a matter of if there is a peace treaty but when.

    Some believe that if the "road map" peace plan which is currently being discussed is in fact the treaty mentioned in Daniel 9:27, then there will be peace for 3 1/2 years before there is a major war — Armageddon — for another 3 1/2 years.

    This prophecy is known as Daniel's 70 weeks, wherein each week equals seven years, and we are in Daniel's last week. These conservatives are not necessarily for or against the "road map"; they simply believe that if this is the biblically predicted treaty, then it will not bring a permanent peace to the region.

    Still others believe that Israel has the right to the land, but that it also has a responsibility to treat the foreigner with justice (Exodus 23:9). They also consider it possible that if God has given the land to Israel to secure peace, then Israel has the right to do what it wishes, including negotiate territory in exchange for peace with the Palestinians.

    In this case, negotiation is possible but needs to be conducted carefully. Such Christians also believe that one day Israel will make a peace treaty that will not last. The question is whether any treaty Israel makes is that treaty.

    Still other conservative Christians do not believe that the state of Israel still has a right to the land because the Jews have not accepted Jesus as the messiah, and hence Israel has forfeited God's promises. For these believers, there is a heavy concern for Palestinians, especially Palestinian Christians, that leaves them more inclined to support the road map.

    Finally there are practical concerns by almost all of these groups about whether any agreement can be signed that will truly give Israel peace. When so many radical Muslims believe that mere Jewish presence defiles the Holy Land — and thus Israel as the Jewish state must be removed and the Palestinians liberated — then one wonders whether peace in fact would result. Some of the violence we see now is the result of those who deny Israel's right to exist.

    What does this all mean? It means that many Christians are disposed to favor Israel, but for a variety of reasons.

    The situation in the Middle East is exceedingly complex, even when it is viewed biblically. In fact, when Jesus made predictions about the end and told believers to keep watch for his return, he stressed that they should not obsess about trying to figure out when the exact time would be because that could not be known. Rather, they should live faithful, Christian lives until he returns. That may be the best advice of all, even while everyone keeps a careful and cautious eye on events in a land that is sacred and so volatile to so many.

  2. #2
    andak01
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    Very interesting article. I feel that when anyone starts spending more attention to fulfilling God's prophecies than in prayer and worship and being good to neighbors, trouble is afoot. Many suicide sects have started that way.

    It is certain that the major monotheistic religions can never build bridges by focusing on the end times. For each, there is a mutually exclusive destiny.

  3. #3
    Revkha
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    Originally posted by andak01
    Very interesting article. I feel that when anyone starts spending more attention to fulfilling God's prophecies than in prayer and worship and being good to neighbors, trouble is afoot. Many suicide sects have started that way.

    There is no likelihood that mainstream Christianity will start suicide sects. This includes Evangelicals. The beliefs of Christianity and Islam are quite different. If you were knowledgeable about Christianity you would understand why prophecy is integral part of their faith.

  4. #4
    Johnny Yuma
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    KoolAid smile....

    I'm making a pitcher of KoolAid. Anyone want a glass?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Guiyana Air, Terminal 15, Capt. Jim Jones will be your pilot.

  6. #6
    Donna
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    Hehehehehe

    Originally posted by Mediocrates
    Guiyana Air, Terminal 15, Capt. Jim Jones will be your pilot.
    Mediocrates said "Terminal"....

  7. #7
    Johnny Yuma
    Guest
    Originally posted by Mediocrates
    Guiyana Air, Terminal 15, Capt. Jim Jones will be your pilot.
    Hee hee hee. (Man! Are we dating ourselves, or what?)

    I hear Mervyns is having a sale on Nikes and purple scarves, too. Wanna catch a comet?

  8. #8
    Johnny Yuma
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    Re: Hehehehehe

    Originally posted by Donna
    Mediocrates said "Terminal"....
    Yeah. Beavith. He thaid "Terminal"....

  9. #9
    andak01
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    Originally posted by Revkha
    There is no likelihood that mainstream Christianity will start suicide sects. This includes Evangelicals. The beliefs of Christianity and Islam are quite different. If you were knowledgeable about Christianity you would understand why prophecy is integral part of their faith.
    Likelihood no. Certitude. Jim Jones was a Pentacostal minister prior to starting his Christian suicide sect. The Heavens gate cult were also Christian. A recent Christian suicide cult in Uganda killed almost one thousand people.

    I used to be a Christian, but not terribly religious one. I do understand somewhat the role of prophecy. Still, as I mention, for the sake of interfaith relations, this is not the element of religions that should be stressed.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    From this month's Hadassah:

    http://www.hadassah.org/news/content...N/jewsevan.htm


    A good article on the diversity of views surrounding this very sensitive issue.

  11. #11
    yoyo
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    Maybe Christians have been given a test to atone from their despicable towards Jews during the last 2000 years... Who knows?

    Anyway, a Rabbi once told me that the earth is programmed for 6000 years so I never felt concerned (lol). But after reading that I looked a bit throughout the Internet for the first time on "armageddon" and although I couldn't find any serious Jewish perspective, I did find these nutters

    http://www.jewsformorality.org/armageddon.htm

    12 minutes??? That enough to grill a sausage on my BBQ and go to the toilet... Better light up the BBQ early tho

  12. #12
    yoyo
    Guest

    Evangelical Argument over Israel

    On a grimmer tone....

    ---

    Evangelical Argument over Israel
    By Jonah Goldberg - October 9, 2002

    As the name Goldberg might indicate to some of you, I am no expert on Christian theology.
    And, perhaps contrary to what you might infer from the name Goldberg, I'm no authority when it comes to Jewish theology, either. So if I fail to cross some doctrinal T's or dot some ecclesiastical I's, please forgive me. But for the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many Jews are upset that so many Christians love Israel.

    Let me explain. Many evangelical Christians take the Bible literally when it says that Jews are God's "chosen people." Quite a few Jews think this too but, surprisingly, fewer than you might think. Anyway, because evangelicals believe this, some of them support Israel out of a bedrock faith that God gave all of the land of biblical Israel to his chosen people. They also believe - and here's the tricky part - that Christ will not return until the Jews have reclaimed Israel and the final battle of the end times begins.

    According to Christian biblical prophesy, two-thirds of the Jews will die by the final battle at Armageddon and the final third will convert to Christianity by accepting Jesus upon his return. This will begin Christ's thousand-year rule.

    "The Jews die or convert," explained author Gershom Gorenberg on a recent - and pretty lopsided - edition of "60 Minutes." "As a Jew, I can't feel very comfortable with the affections of somebody who looks forward to that scenario." A liberal political journalist, Gorenberg has written a book, "The End of Days," about the evangelicals who love Israel, but he wants Israel to turn its back on them.

    There are plenty of pragmatic objections to the support of evangelicals; they primarily take the form of worrying that the support of Christian conservatives in America will embolden Israeli hawks to avoid compromise with the Palestinians. This is a perfectly legitimate argument, though I don't agree with all of it. But it is not the one getting the most attention.

    What's got so many folks upset is that the evangelicals support Israel for religious reasons. And sure, it'd be nice - from a Jewish perspective - if Revelations envisioned a happier ending for Jews. But, first of all, if you are Jewish (as I am), why should you care what Christian prophesy holds if you don't expect it to happen? And, if it does happen, and Jesus returns to Earth to establish his kingdom, who's to say a few Jews won't listen to him? And if it turns out the Jews are right and the Messiah will show up for his first visit, isn't it possible that he'll have an explanation handy for everyone?

    No one can say their biblical interpretation will actually bind God's hands at the end of the day, because man is not more powerful than God. In short, leave the details of the end of the world up to God because he's the one calling all the shots.

    But let's come back to Earth for a moment. Other peoples' religions say all sorts of unpleasant things about non-believers in general or Jews in particular; the only relevant question for us humans is how people translate their theology into moral action because morality is the only thing we can objectively judge.

    In the past, supposedly authentic Christian readings of the Bible justified all sorts of terrible things be done to the Jews. Call me crazy, but the fact that evangelicals believe the Bible commands them to love and respect the Jews seems like a huge win for the tribe, historically speaking. Only a fool would complain, "Oh, you're just being kind to people because the Bible tells you to!"

    "60 Minutes," because of its ongoing mission to show Christian conservatives as the downfall of human civilization, portrayed evangelical supporters of Israel as caricatures, incapable of multidimensional thought. But I've discussed this with dozens of evangelicals, and I didn't recognize the people shown on "60 Minutes."

    Yes, the evangelicals I've heard from believe that Israel has an important place in God's plan and that Jews are God's chosen people. But that's a backdrop for them, a theological context that allows them to see the plight of Jews in a sympathetic light. Most of the ones I hear from are much quicker to talk about Israel as a democracy or an ally - not as the tripwire for Armageddon.

    And, let's point out there's no shortage of Israelis who believe Israel exists because God intended it to. They only disagree with the evangelicals over what God's intentions are. And that argument is only going to be settled on God's timetable.

    Mr. Goldberg is the editor of National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com).

  13. #13
    Revkha
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    Re: KoolAid smile....

    Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
    I'm making a pitcher of KoolAid. Anyone want a glass?
    Depends on what flavor? I'm partial to grape. Isn't that what flavor Jim Jones used.

  14. #14
    Revkha
    Guest
    Originally posted by andak01
    Likelihood no. Certitude. Jim Jones was a Pentacostal minister prior to starting his Christian suicide sect. The Heavens gate cult were also Christian. A recent Christian suicide cult in Uganda killed almost one thousand people.

    I used to be a Christian, but not terribly religious one. I do understand somewhat the role of prophecy. Still, as I mention, for the sake of interfaith relations, this is not the element of religions that should be stressed.
    The three you mentioned are not representative of Christianity as a whole. Wow - I think I using one of your arguments why Islamist extremist are not respective of Islam as a whole. Christianity and Islam believe that one’s respective faith is the only true path to G_d. Judaism believes there is path for Jews and non-Jews. Jews obey the 613 commandments and non-Jews comply with the Noahide laws.

    With Jews interfaith relations is easier because we believe the members of other faiths have a chance for salvation. Based on the tenets of Islam and Christianity, they both believe each other is going to hell unless they covert to each other's religion. Which should make these interfaith relations "gatherings" very interesting.

  15. #15
    Communication
    Guest
    I just spent a month traveling through the South with friends.

    Jews:

    Be afraid...be very afraid.

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