Muslim Victimology and Narcissism

[abu afak]

By Lee Howard Hodges
March 11, 2002
The Iranian

A whiny, self-pitying, narcissistic Muslim victimology characterizes most of the dialogue emanating from the Muslim world today. This is what I usually hear when I listen to Muslims discuss the problems within their societies as well as with the West.

Muslims are always the victims, never the perpetrators. They bear no responsibility for their predicaments. The world is a morality play, in which Muslims have been cast as the victims, and the West, particularly the U.S. and Israel, as the villains.

This victimology mentality, not U.S. foreign policy or Israel, is the root cause of the backward, oppressive condition the Muslim world finds itself in today.

Since September 11th, countless people have argued that American foreign policy mistakes caused the terrorism and hatred toward America emanating from the Middle East. This is simply a cop-out. It is hogwash.

American foreign policy has had many flaws around the world. Yet other parts of the world, particularly Southeast Asia and Latin America, have suffered far more from U.S. foreign policy than has the Middle East!

Even during the Vietnam War, however, it was rare to find a Vietnamese who hated America itself, as it is clear many Muslims do today. If U.S. foreign policy toward Muslims caused the terrorism of September 11th, why didn't U.S. misdeeds in Vietnam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, etc., cause any terrorism?

Over and over again, Muslims put U.S. support of Israel at the top of their grievances. There is much to criticize in Israel's treatment of the Palestinians -- particularly the greedy, provocative building of Jewish settlements in the occupied territories. Yet there is much to criticize the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors for as well.

Many Palestinians were expelled from their homes in 1947-8 (although many others chose to leave). Yet why couldn't their Arab neighbors take them in -- just as Israel took in Jews forcibly expelled from Arab countries?

The Arab states cynically chose to have the Palestinians be perpetual "refugees" as a pawn to use against Israel. People are often expelled or displaced from their homelands during war, and politically sympathetic countries take them in all the time -- witness the immigration of many South Vietnamese to America after the fall of South Vietnam.

The Palestinians now have a national identity of their own. Yet what are they doing to gain their independence? Instead of skillfully using diplomacy as well as nonviolent resistance, like Gandhi did in India, they commit themselves to a hopeless struggle against Israel.

They send their children out to blow themselves up in pointless suicide bombings that have set back, rather than advanced, their cause. They demand a "right of return" that no Israeli government could ever possibly grant.

Don't the American Indians have an equal right to return to their old homes across the U.S.? Yet the U.S. government would never grant this in a million years. American Indians don't stay at war with the U.S. government, vow to demolish the U.S., and strap explosives to themselves to kill innocent men, women, and children!

To the West, Palestinians and their sympathizers have no moral credibility to condemn Israel if and when they publicly celebrate the suicide bombings of women and children! This is murder, not freedom-fighting!

The Palestinians need to accept Israel's basic existence. They do not need to accept the Zionist idea that Jews have a "birthright" to Palestine. This is a philosophical position, not a factual one.

The Palestinians, however, along with the rest of the Muslim world, needs to "come to terms" with Israel's existence, even if they believe Israel should never have been established in the first place, and stop the teaching of mindless hatred for Israel that is all too common in the Muslim world today.

Furthermore, the whole Muslim preoccupation with Israel reeks in hypocrisy. While Muslims condemn Israel incessantly for the Palestinian issue, they usually totally ignore the massive human rights abuses in Muslim countries

In 1988, Saddam Hussein murdered 5,000 Kurds with nerve gas. Shi'a Muslims, who comprise 60 percent of Iraq's population, are harshly persecuted. Yet where do you here Muslims protesting all this?

As M.A. Muqtedar Khan noted, "In many Persian Gulf countries, laws and even salaries are based on ethnic origin. This is racism..." Yet why didn't we hear Muslims protest these practices at the Durban conference on racism? Instead, all of the focus was on condemning Israel as a "racist state."

Muslims frequently argue that the U.S. is hypocritical because it supports "repressive regimes" in the Middle East, particularly Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Yet how is the U.S. supposed to "stand up for democracy" in dealing with countries that have never had any democratic traditions? Where are the democrats in Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

As Fouad Ajami notes, the Arab world has "...had authoritarian regimes since the dawn of its history." If the Egyptian and Saudi governments were toppled, we would likely see Taliban-style regimes take their place. They would be more oppressive than the existing order, not less.

It is not America's moral responsibility to create or foster "free societies" in the Muslim world. This is the responsibility of Muslims themselves. In addition, American leaders have a right and a duty to put their nations' self-interest first in formulating foreign policy -- as do the leaders of every other nation. This does not mean that nations should only care about themselves, but it does mean they can't do what others want without looking out for their own interests.

Until the Muslim world looks within and stops the "blame game" of scapegoating the U.S. and Israel for its problems, it will never reclaim the greatness it once enjoyed. A thousand years ago, the Muslim world led humanity in scientific achievement.

Today, Israel alone has nearly twice as many scientists as all Muslim countries put together. This cannot be explained by American foreign policy or Israel. Rather, it is a clear signal that Muslims must look inward in order to reclaim their societies.

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/March/Victim/

Author

Lee Howard Hodges, B.A. M.A. Historical Studies, University of Maryland, Baltimore.

[andak01]

Originally posted by abu afak
Muslims are always the victims, never the perpetrators. They bear no responsibility for their predicaments. The world is a morality play, in which Muslims have been cast as the victims, and the West, particularly the U.S. and Israel, as the villains.

You make a good point. So, the world is instead a morality play in which Muslims can do no good? In which 1/5th of the world's population operates in a vacuum, unaffected by anything that goes on around them? The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Since September 11th, countless people have argued that American foreign policy mistakes caused the terrorism and hatred toward America emanating from the Middle East. This is simply a cop-out. It is hogwash.

Actually, September 11th is a good example of what you are denying. There were Muslim victims and Muslim rescue workers as well. Most Muslims in the world are every bit as threatened by the mentality of the 9/11 attackers as any America Jew or Christian. In the recent attack in Casablanca which shook the home of my in-laws, it was primarily Muslims who were killed.

The victim mentality is wrong in as much as all innocent victims deserve the same respect. A people or a religion doesn't OWN the concept of victimhood, because grief is experienced the same globally.

Even during the Vietnam War, however, it was rare to find a Vietnamese who hated America itself, as it is clear many Muslims do today. If U.S. foreign policy toward Muslims caused the terrorism of September 11th, why didn't U.S. misdeeds in Vietnam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, etc., cause any terrorism?

Each of these cases would need to be looked at individually any more than grouping the Sufis, Ismailis, Shiites, Kasharites and other Muslim sects together as a whole along with the Sunnis makes sense. Not all Muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are Muslims. Incidently, we don't define the death squads murdering people door-to-door under Pol Pot or similarly in Nicaragua as terrorists. Why is that? They commit acts of terror against civilians in order to achieve their political goals don't they?

Yet there is much to criticize the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors for as well.

Yes, "as well". And recently they have received that criticism in the form of bombs from the sky and troops on the ground.

Many Palestinians were expelled from their homes in 1947-8 (although many others chose to leave). Yet why couldn't their Arab neighbors take them in -- just as Israel took in Jews forcibly expelled from Arab countries?

Couldn't the Canadians or Mexicans have taken in all of the Indians from America? The answer is, they could have, but since they weren't from there, they were under no obligation.

The Arab states cynically chose to have the Palestinians be perpetual "refugees" as a pawn to use against Israel. People are often expelled or displaced from their homelands during war, and politically sympathetic countries take them in all the time -- witness the immigration of many South Vietnamese to America after the fall of South Vietnam.

There is some truth to this and I have plenty of criticism for those who were involved in such political profit taking.

The Palestinians now have a national identity of their own. Yet what are they doing to gain their independence? Instead of skillfully using diplomacy as well as nonviolent resistance, like Gandhi did in India, they commit themselves to a hopeless struggle against Israel.

Non-violent protest has ended in the past as it did for Rachel Cory, in the morgue. The international observers and peace protesters were brought in for precisely the reason that Palestinians protesting peacefully have a high incidence of rubber bullets to the head. Personally, I am still in favor of such peaceful protests. Gandhi had plenty to say against the Zionist state as well.

"But" Gandhi asserted, "My sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and in the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after their return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?"

"But in my opinion, they [the Jews] have erred grievously in seeking to impose themselves on Palestine with the aid of America and Britain and now with the aid of naked terrorism... Why should they depend on American money or British arms for forcing themselves on an unwelcome land? Why should they resort to terrorism to make good their forcible landing in Palestine?"

Don't the American Indians have an equal right to return to their old homes across the U.S.? Yet the U.S. government would never grant this in a million years. American Indians don't stay at war with the U.S. government, vow to demolish the U.S., and strap explosives to themselves to kill innocent men, women, and children!

That's true, but if the Palestinians were tax exempt and kept free of military incursion, curfews and checkpoints like the American Indians, they might be more peacefully inclined. I am certain that a portion of our Indians still demand more reparations, but the situation is at least under control.

To the West, Palestinians and their sympathizers have no moral credibility to condemn Israel if and when they publicly celebrate the suicide bombings of women and children! This is murder, not freedom-fighting!

We are agreed on that. How many Pals celebrated? ALL of them? I saw twenty or thirty in the photos, like the photos where we were expected to believe that ALL Iraqis celebrated the demise of Saddam. But I don't deny my disgust as seeing anyone celebrate such a travesty. What force could drive someone to do such a thing? Because there were plenty of Muslims elsewhere showing their solidarity with the 9/11 victims.

The Palestinians need to accept Israel's basic existence. They do not need to accept the Zionist idea that Jews have a "birthright" to Palestine. This is a philosophical position, not a factual one.

I agree, like the Indians and the Zulus of South Africa, they must accept the permanent loss of their land. That is the better path towards stability in the world. There also needs to be some sort of compensation allowed them, whether payment or economic opportunities.

In 1988, Saddam Hussein murdered 5,000 Kurds with nerve gas. Shi'a Muslims, who comprise 60 percent of Iraq's population, are harshly persecuted. Yet where do you here Muslims protesting all this?

On the streets of Iraq. Those same Shi'as are being shot at for demanding to be put into power democratically. Democracy is great, as long as the voters vote the way we want them to.

Muslims frequently argue that the U.S. is hypocritical because it supports "repressive regimes" in the Middle East, particularly Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Yet how is the U.S. supposed to "stand up for democracy" in dealing with countries that have never had any democratic traditions? Where are the democrats in Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

If Egypt and Saudi Arabia look at our methods for standing up for democracy, they will see the examples of Panama, Haiti, Afghanistan and Iraq. Arming themselves with nukes as soon as possible would seem to be a reasonable objective. After all, it has successfully staved off our attack of North Korea. We were able to attack Iraq with confidence knowing that he didn't have nukes.

As Fouad Ajami notes, the Arab world has "...had authoritarian regimes since the dawn of its history." If the Egyptian and Saudi governments were toppled, we would likely see Taliban-style regimes take their place. They would be more oppressive than the existing order, not less.

What almost nobody has noted in Iran is how much more liberal the government has become since Komeini. The fatwa against Salman Rushdie was dropped for example. Also, we are not seeing any Tieneman square style massacres of protestors. On the contrary, their voices are being allowed. They are there in the first place because they realize that they can be.

BTW, I am in favor of disolving the Mullocracy. But it should be done from within. The Iranian people, like the Iraqis diserve self determination. That's what democracy and freedom mean, not being told you must adopt x form of government whether you like it or not.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak


You make a good point. So, the world is instead a morality play in which Muslims can do no good? In which 1/5th of the world's population operates in a vacuum, unaffected by anything that goes on around them? The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

actually the truth lies not at all close to the middle.

The truth lies in the Fact Islam/Muslims are the World's biggest cause of Violent Death (and persecution and cleansing), and yet, as this article says, they claim victimhood.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by abu afak
By Lee Howard Hodges
March 11, 2002
The Iranian

[.....]

It is not America's moral responsibility to create or foster "free societies" in the Muslim world. This is the responsibility of Muslims themselves.

[.....]

Author

Lee Howard Hodges, B.A. M.A. Historical Studies, University of Maryland, Baltimore.

This statement, made in the midst of Mr. Hodges other observations, pretty much dashes all hope. Where is the example of muslims taking responsibility for anything other than murdering Jews?

[Acheron]

To Abu Afak,


You might find this article interesting :


Islamic game of victimization


by Ali Sina



http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...timization.htm





You can also check out Ali Sina's site. It's very well set up, and lambasts Islam.


http://www.faithfreedom.org



http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum





Regards, Acheron



.

[TJC]

Hallo,

Terry here from London, now in The Netherlands.

It isn't easy to make a valuable comment about the problems the world faces today, and especially not easy of course to comment on the on-going, long lasting discordances in The Middle East.

To make any sense, of especially the middle eastern disharmony, it seems to me clear perception might only be reached when taking everything into account, the total picture must be seen with all the history of mankind, its empires, its wars, its development and evolution, because Israel's problem is not a separate thing, we live on one planet and though division seems to be the rule rather than unity everything in the world is most certainly connected.

People may, can and do make excuses for their own intellectual ignorance and lack of good thinking.
How can we say that we have evolved if we are to continue having to deal with barbarianism?
The only way that there will be peace on Earth and therefore in Israel is when mankind adopts the higher intelligence inside us which leads us through contemplation and comprehension of the total sum of all of our existences to unity. Selfishness and hatred will never difuse a bad situation.

I was the other week in a cafe and this young Turkish guy had something in his head and he grabbed my cheek in a flash with his teeth, he could have torn my face of, he wasn't biting thriough but he held me there and I couldn't get loose really without danger, it was very threatening, but I did difuse it, I stayed calm didn't pull away, and I stimulated this guy's mind and sensibilities and conscience, I reasoned with him and made him aware of his surroundings.
I told him, "Hey look what's wrong? you think you are discriminated but not everyone is like that, but you have been discriminated somewhere and so now you think that everyone is like that but they aren't"
I said, "Look I've never seen you before why do you disrespect me I would help you with anything I could, if you needed it but now you disrespect yourself by disrespecting me".
Well, he left thanking me, because I know that people talk about love and truth but to know another person (like I knew this guy better than he knew himself), you have to know yourself, and understand where 2 and 2 make four in love and respect and know how hatred and aggression doesn't add up at all.
Only with love did I manage to stop the storm that this guy was, he might have become real vicious, people do when they feel ill-treated or mishandled/treated.

But it has been the way of us human beings to fight and oppress, each empire that stood, stood in its glory days as if it could never ever fall, but here is where we look at the total picture of our history as far as we can see backwards to find out which traits are a way of the world.
We look at the Greeks we look at the Persians, we look at the Romans, we look at the Moghul Emperors, they all were part of our history, part of our development, most were brutal in one way or the other, but all of these layed the foundations of what we have today as far as culture, democracy and civilization is concerned.

But in essense we have not evolved to a higher intelligence where we work as a world together to create prosperity for all nations because this discontentment houses itself in undermined societies where there has never hardly been freedom of speech where there has hardly never been real freedom of religion, where there has never been true democracy as far as we can concieve of true democracy. Democracy would have to have meant in its highest idealic terminology, freedom for the peoples to choose their form of Government and their leaders and therefore the laws that will get put through by any government which are supposed to connect us to the other concept, that namely of civilization, where these laws are supposed to enable us and our children to have protection and rights to life and limb, so that not any old maniac can run riot brutalizing whoever he/she wishes, so that we can live together without savagery.

But, in the far past and also recent, life had been a struggle, we did not have all of these gadgets and we didn't have the amount of science and technology.
But, there is enough resources on Earth to enable all people to at least have shelter, water, protection from the elements, heat and cold, clothing medical care and food on the table.
But, as long as the world carries on not doing enough to tackle those under-developed countries so that they will not need to flee abroad as refugees for multiple reasons political/economal, so that those things they have where they can see their children grow and know they are safe will be things they will not want to lose.

Its the idea of injustice (through all of the killings and suffering) thrown also into the abyss of poverty that causes people to blow themselves up, all of the discontentment and lack of chance to live a decent respectful life that drives people to despair and it is then that the fanatic preys on those people to push them over the edge through indocrination. There is where the blame game comes in.
But those that go so very far as to do something as inhumane and cruel and insane as to blow themselves and others up are helped by the true fanatic who even if everything was settled would still want to kill, still until the whole world is converted to Allah, but ordinary people/muslims, aren't like that, I know many persons of Islamic faith, I've travelled, I met people that knew more about every kind of religion that existed than I had ever heard about, and philosophy too and are not aggressive but kind.


The amount of human resourses that go into weapons to protect ourselves from ourselves is incredibly ignorant, it isn't in the league of intelligent species, we only deserve the name SAPIENS when we live up to it, because with those resources put into the poor countries so that they can produce and be productive would also be able to change the whole picture globally, where societies would raise children to be unselfish and instead of looking up to machoism and success in wealth, be busy enriching their minds through good thought and good action and good results in life.


This is actually not a joke at all, because seeing as how we are advancing scientifically and technologically if the amount of discord continues in the world too much bad will happen, because our capabilities have exceeded our collective intelligence so now they didn't have the bomb, now that Saddam (lucifer's cousin)didn't get to let of a huge devastating nightmare for us somewhere nor has his equalness Bin Ladin either, but it doesn't just go away.

So I see it as not a matter of choice, solving these life shattering problems, it is absolutely vital for the survival of the planet, because America will obviously not always be able to go help and keep putting soldiers everywhere, how much does it all cost in blood and money?

Too much.
The truth is, nobody can truly own the planet, it is illusion, the planet owns every single one of us, because it sustains us, without it we are no more, that is why someone had better stand up who is willing to be selfless and start talking straight.
If all of the resources were needed to make weapons to protect us from out of space invaders, I could go along with it, but we divide ourselves and fight causing problems, when unity would heal a lot.



Does mankind always have to go on and on until things are unbearable before he changes?
It seems to me that mankind does go on and on and refuses trhrough the trait of stubbornness to think for him/herself, blaming religion and race on the short comings which are visible in every race on Earth.

I don't believe that anyone's God will bless those that cause unnecessary suffering.
But imagine those Islamic countries and the poor countries feeling as an equal part in the whole which makes our world and having some amount of prosperity, would they then allow such
murderers as Bin Ladin, driven by his view of everything other than his version of Allah as being evil and corrupt and bad, (everything western) to remain in their communities?
No I don't think they would because which father or mother wants to bring trouble on his children, his family, who wants to risk the happiness of those that he/she loves? not many people I'd say, if they are allowed to live feeling free of persecution.

Now we come to Israels problem.
Israelites have always been persecuted. This has made them what they are. You will not find a Jewish person sweeping streets not in Antwerpen and not in London, they evolved in their abilities to survive I expect.

So aside from religion I think fear is the biggest animator of strife on all sides, fear of being ill-treated, persecuted.

Now it can go on and on.
But somewhere truth will show its face, truth doesn't hold to alibis or bias it goes where you would not expect it so it can shine like a light and nobody can hide from it.
Now both sides have degrees of unfairness and total madness within the situation that is and has been affecting them for so long.
But if neither will truly compromise then it will go on and on forever, unless one side completely obliterates the other.

One may read any holy text any scripture and one may interpret that according to the amount of love and truth acquired personally or the lack of it but if the simple things of simple human dignity and kindness in truth, justice, mercy and forgiveness *for all* don't have a starring role in the scenario then nothing will come of anything, and if God exists surely we have removed ourselves from God.

Terry John Costin

[MichaelC]

Well Terry, I hope that as you move around with those stars in your eyes, you will still be able to see well enough to stay safe. I don't think that people can live a satisfactory life without ideals of some kind, but the reality of the mortal plane may tend to grab you and bring you down to earth if you start floating around too much.

Welcome to the Forum. You will find that it tends to be more of a place for the discussion of serious matters than a stage for philosophical musings. But, if you're into that, and it appears you are, I don't think anyone'll run you out of town.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by Acheron
To Abu Afak,

You might find this article interesting :

Islamic game of victimization
by Ali Sina

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...timization.htm

You can also check out Ali Sina's site. It's very well set up, and lambasts Islam.

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum

Regards, Acheron

Thank you Archeron; I know the site, but let me reciprocate.

The 'Former Muslim' sites tend to be very good and have extra incite for that fact.
Muslims hate them when used on message boards, though I use them anyway.

Also excellent is Ibn Warraq's SecularIslam.org ie
(author of 'Why I Am Not A Muslim')

http://www.secularislam.org/articles/wtc.htm

This excerpt from the above is one of my most used passages on Islam:



“Ah, but you are confusing Islam with Islamic fundamentalism. The Real Islam has nothing to do with violence,” apologists of Islam argue.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur’an, the Sunna, and the Hadith – Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. The fundamentalists, with greater logic and coherence than so-called moderate or liberal Muslims, have made Islam the basis of a radical utopian ideology that aims to replace capitalism and democracy as the reigning world system. Islamism accounts for the anti-American hatred to be found in places far from the Arab-Israeli conflict, like Nigeria and Afghanistan, demonstrating that the Middle East conflict cannot legitimately be used to explain this phenomenon called Islamism. A Palestinian involved in the WTC bombings would be seen as a martyr to the Palestinian cause, but even more as a martyr to Islam.

“Ah, but Islamic fundamentalism is like any other kind of fundamentalism, one must not demonise it. It is the result of political, social grievances. It must be explained in terms of economics and not religion,” continue the apologists of Islam.

There are enormous differences between Islamic fundamentalism and any other kind of modern fundamentalism. It is true that Hindu, Jewish, and Christian fundamentalists have been responsible for acts of violence, but these have been confined to particular countries and regions. Islamic fundamentalism has global aspirations: the submission of the entire world to the all-embracing Shari’a, Islamic Law, a fascist system of dictates designed to control every single act of all individuals. Nor do Hindus or Jews seek to convert the world to their religion. Christians do indulge in proselytism but no longer use acts of violence or international terrorism to achieve their aims.

Only Islam treats non-believers as inferior beings who are expendable in the drive to world hegemony. Islam justifies any means to achieve the end of establishing an Islamic world.

Islamic fundamentalists recruit among Muslim populations, they appeal to Islamic religious symbols, and they motivate their recruits with Islamic doctrine derived from the Qur’an. Economic poverty alone cannot explain the phenomenon of Islamism. Poverty in Brazil or Mexico has not resulted in Christian fundamentalist acts of international terror. Islamists are against what they see as western materialism itself. Their choice is clear: Islam or jahiliyya. The latter term is redefined to mean modern-style jahiliyya of modern, democratic, industrialised societies of Europe and America, where man is under the dominion of man rather than Allah. They totally reject the values of the West, which they feel are poisoning Islamic culture. So, it is not just a question of economics, but of an entirely different worldview, which they wish to impose on the whole world. Sayyid Qutb, the very influential Egyptian Muslim thinker, said that “dominion should be reverted to Allah alone, namely to Islam, that holistic system He conferred upon men. An all-out offensive, a jihad, should be waged against modernity so that this moral rearmament could take place. The ultimate objective is to re-establish the Kingdom of Allah upon earth...”[2]

[TJC]

Hi
Micheal,

I might just see a bit more than you do.
You obviously do not believe that world peace can ever be possible and you probably believe in the way of the sword I think but I might be wrong.
Which you must know means weapons.
Reality on Earth is just man made.
I said, didn't I, "Unless one or the other obliterates the other".

Well, I think both sides would like to obliterate the other.
If there were no rules then I'm sure Israel would have already done it, the other way around too.

Philosophical musings, well, what do you think it is that has caused all of the bloodshed in Israel? I think it's religion. So what are those things, those religions, philosophical musings from people from the past where people today choose for one side or the other and cannot work it out?
Do you see anything good about the Palestinians, and does your idea of idealism mean that with force these ideals have to be layed down on others with other ideals?

I see no difference, ordinary Israelis want peace so do Palestinians.

I don't think that you have a clear picture of the past so there's no way you'll contemplate the future but to know how to handle things in the present for the long term which means ways towards peace, you'll have to think far more broadly and much further than your nose long is. Of course it can't be done overnight of course weapons are a necessity NOW because already so much violence has taken place.
But if that's what you want, bombs going off, then I suppose you'll just keep your self-satisfied approach to those problems.

The western world ha ha ha, don't make me laugh is righteous? correct? is democratic?
The past is so soon forgotten, how it is that Holland, England and the rest made their fortunes which allowed them to build such infra-structures, what right do we have to dictate, when our history shows that we colonized and brutalized those weaker than us?

Intellectual Micheal does not mean, Take a thing that's simple then make it seem hard.

Terry

[Mercury]

Originally posted by TJC
Hallo,

Terry here from London, now in The Netherlands.

Wellcome to the forum, Terry. I hope you'll enjoy yourself here as well as contribute to the discussion. Just a small note. Philosophy is definitely a good thing, but your reasonings seem just a little too deep. From your entire post I managed to understand only that peace is good and war is evil (you have my full support here). Please, try to be more specific in the future. You should go easy on us, simple mortals.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by TJC
Hi Micheal,
I might just see a bit more than you do.

And that may be true, but if you can't find a way to communicate more clearly, no one will ever know.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by TJC
I don't think that you have a clear picture of the past

Is that what you say to everyone, or are you having some sort of psychic experience concerning me in particular in which you are accessing the Akashic Record and viewing the imprint that I am leaving on the Universe?

Wish I could do that?

[abu afak]

Originally posted by TJC
.....I see no difference, ordinary Israelis want peace so do Palestinians.

I don't think that you have a clear picture of the past so there's no way you'll contemplate the future but to know how to handle things in the present for the long term which means ways towards peace, you'll have to think far more broadly and much further than your nose long is. Of course it can't be done overnight of course weapons are a necessity NOW because already so much violence has taken place.
But if that's what you want, bombs going off, then I suppose you'll just keep your self-satisfied approach to those problems.

The western world ha ha ha, don't make me laugh is righteous? correct? is democratic?
The past is so soon forgotten, how it is that Holland, England and the rest made their fortunes which allowed them to build such infra-structures, what right do we have to dictate, when our history shows that we colonized and brutalized those weaker than us?

Terry

Welcome TJC...

Some notes for you though:

1. Woodstock is over (I know.. I was there)

2. Everyone is not "Just like us/you" -- don't sleep with your front door open.
2a. Could you really picture Israelis having a celebration after a horrid event like the Hebrew University bombing which targeted/killed students? (The Palestinians had several .. one of 10,000)
Or even after killing a man responsible for it?

3. I don't think you have a clear picture of History; especially not for this conlict.
The Arabs have rejected peace and tried to wipe out the Jews several times, incuding initially in 1948 and several subsequent times.

3b. Thankfully, the Jews have won all the Wars (and singularly have the means still), and we only got to test one side of your Wrong premise that "Both Sides would like to wipe each other out, but haven't because of the rules". .... You may be right about the Arab side tho... see Sudan.

4. Some people here accept nebulous love-child musings and decent prose for logic... most of us don't. .. Get specific.

[Communication]

Hi TJC!

I'm very impressed at how you managed to use all that clever Zen master warrior stuff to get the Turkish guy off your face. Sadly, some people are out for more than a free lunch though.

You guys in Europe spent how many centuries spilling blood, with borders going back and forth? And you did it all in the name of religion. Once you became “enlightened,” you then did it in the name of fascism, communism, and now…….now your borders are finally fixed for the most part, and you are actually attempting to unify economically. That was very noble to admit that Europe was built on raping and pillaging the third world. So congratulations, you made it through the tuff times, well except for maybe Czechoslovakia and Prussia. Now, all those other parts of the world that your people marched their boots through are going through the same sort of process. It might take some time, and plenty of blood will continue to be shed, but at least we can look to Europe as a model for what not to do . Most of us here, when you think about it, are just trying to make sure that when all is said and done 100 years from now, that Israel doesn’t become another Czechoslovakia.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Communication
Hi TJC!I'm very impressed at how you managed to use all that clever Zen master warrior stuff to get the Turkish guy off your face. Sadly, some people are out for more than a free lunch though.

Well, there's another great line that requires a wipedown of the monitor after I stop gasping from laughter.