A letter to the Muslim and Arab peoples

[MGB8]

(I will be trying to post this on Pro-Pal bulletin boards...we'll see if they have the courage to post it.)

Dear cousins:

I am writing to you as a Jew and an Israeli. I hope that you have the courage to print what I write, although I doubt it, and will believe it when I see it.

I am writing you as an aknowledged enemy. You cannot convince me that Israel should not exist, that it was founded wrongly, or that Zion does not belong to the Jews. I know you believe the land belongs to you. That is your right. But know that I and the great majority of Jews believe otherwise...and will always believe so.

I do not understand how you sustain your belief. The Turkish census data shows that Jerusalem, built by King David, your cousin, home of Jesus, a man Mohammed recognized as a prophet and the home of "the people of the book"...that data shows that throughout history, despite the diasporas...Jerusalem has ALWAYS been majority Jewish.

More recently, the mideast was owned by the British, and then that 1% of the mideast that historically belonged to the Children of Israel was again returned to the Jews.

Even Mohammed spoke of the Jews returning to take custody of Zion....so I do not understand your objections except in terms of pride.

And pride....who has done more to HUMILIATE the Arab people than the Arab leaders. Who massacred their people in Syria (Qana), in Jordan, in Iraq, in Saudi Arabia? Who lowered themselves to attaking a fledgling state with overwhelming numbers as it was born? To genocide those who had survived the genocide? Who was SO COWARDLY to attack a nation on its holiest day...the day of mourning...when the men were fasting? Who supports proven LIARS like Arafat, whom the late King Hussein of Jordan (he who said "Jordan is Palestine") told that "he (Arafat) never met a bridge he couldn't double cross."

I do not understand how a proud Arab people can adopt tactics of bombing full disco, old-age homes, pizza parlors, buses and bar mitzvahs... Sniper attacks on old women and children.

A society whose men war behind the skirts of their women and the skin of their children.

THIS IS ARAB PRIDE?

I also come to inform you that any dreams you have about the destruction of Israel will cost you.

Just as the Jews hunted down the Nazi's after the holocaust, any destruction of Israel..an attack on Judaism...will be met in kind. An eye for an eye.

I promise you, personally, that should Israel ever fall, before the end of my lifetime Mecca and Medina will be ash...the desert soaked in blood and tears. If G-d himself does not send an avenging angel...I, and thousands of others like me, will do the job ourselves. The destruction of Israel will result in the destruction of every holy place to Islam. This I swear to you.

We are at a threshold....we have a chance to move forward...but only if you abandon the myths of Israeli illegitimacy, and are willing to accept that the Jews have returned to take custody of Zion. Then, even the "Palestinian" Arabs will be able to have their own state...a "true" state on the Gaza and part of Sinai from Egypt (so that they population may grow) with local autonomy, but not full sovereignty, in the West Bank.

These are not the sheep of the Holocaust....we will not put ourselves in a position to be betrayed.

Remember my promise, and don't doubt that I will cast aside any semblance of normal life if the situation comes to pass in order to fullfill Israel's revenge. These are the children of Samson, not Massada.

It is your choice to make. Choose wisely.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by MGB8
(I will be trying to post this on Pro-Pal bulletin boards...we'll see if they have the courage to post it.)

I really liked it up to this point: "should Israel ever fall"

I don't want to entertain such a possibility, especially with those who drool over it.

before the end of my lifetime Mecca and Medina will be ash...the desert soaked in blood and tears.

Do you think those who proudly "educate" their own children into blowing themselves up, would care about the spilled blood? I am afraid, they want to see terror in return. I am afraid we are dealing with totally different mentality.

What would I say? Every war brought them shame and humiliation. Every aggression made them lose something they had. Every peace move brought them peace in return, international acceptance, and rich rewards (such as territories. Too rich, in my opinion). So, dear cousins, don't push your luck. Our back is against the wall. Choose wisely, etc.

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
I really liked it up to this point: "should Israel ever fall"

I don't want to entertain such a possibility, especially with those who drool over it.



Do you think those who proudly "educate" their own children into blowing themselves up, would care about the spilled blood? I am afraid, they want to see terror in return. I am afraid we are dealing with totally different mentality.

What would I say? Every war brought them shame and humiliation. Every aggression made them lose something they had. Every peace move brought them peace in return, international acceptance, and rich rewards (such as territories. Too rich, in my opinion). So, dear cousins, don't push your luck. Our back is against the wall. Choose wisely, etc.

I agree. We are dealing with a different mentality.It's been apparent for a long time,but somehow it isn't pc to discuss it.And the media ignores it.
The fact is they look at life & death differently than we do.The muslims believe in total submission to their god.And death is the ultimate submission.They glorify their shaheeds.Even the sweetest and kindest women will tell you that they prefer their husbands to be shaheeds rather that POW's.They have a culture of death & violence.And they will never accept zionists on what they consider to be muslim land.
We have seen what christians have done to us & yet christianity has a message of love & peace.It's those who distort the message of christianity who have persecuted us.
But Islam brings an entirely different message.Unless there is a reformation, they will always want to subjugate us and all others who don't believe in Allah.

[MGB8]

I disagree...and think that your thoughts are consequences of very succesful propoganda on their part.

The Arabs committ terror on Israel not because they want to die...but BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT!

That's why the targetted killings caused the cease-fire! That's why they feel that they can violate their "cease fire" with impunity. Because they think that ISRAEL WON'T RETALIATE IN KIND.

Have you noticed that talk of peace from the Palestinians only started AFTER Israel began hitting back - HARD. NOT at EMPTY BUILDINGS. But at the leadership and people.

The Arab COUNTRIES are the same way. The believe that they can incite all they want, and that the world will prevent any consequences to them BECAUSE OF OIL.

That's why the IRAQ WAR was SO IMPORTANT! An Arab nation's leadership was made to feel REAL consequences. Not on the people (sanction) but ON THEM!

The Arabs ARE NOT FATALISTIC. They are driven by HOPE, not Despair.

They BELIEVE that they could "get away" with the destruction of Israel.

Well....I for one promise them that they will not. I re-iterate it. If they ever succeed in their goals, they better hope Hitler was re-incarnated and every Jew is gone...because those left will MAKE SURE that any associated with the crime, direct or inderect....even innocents only connected by the place they live....will SUFFER THE SAME. At that point I personally would embrace terrorism - not as a means to an end, like the Arabs...but as punishment.

They think that Jews are clever, no? Let them see exactly how clever the Jews can be at getting Nuclear weapons to strike Islam's holy sites and Arab population centers and also oil reserves.

Only when the Arabs KNOW that this will CERTAINLY be the consequence of their crimes will they give up their FALSE HOPE. Then and only then. They have to understand, that while the Jews are an extremely moral people....beyond a certain point, all bets are off.

If I have to, I'd find a way to do it myself.

Islam and the Arab world must understand that death to Israel means death to themsleves. Only then will their HOPE (and that is what it is....it IS NOT a death cult for THE LEADERSHIP and INCITERS and even really the suicide bombers themselves - they act out of HOPE OF DRIVING THE JEWS AWAY....NOT A WISH FOR DEATH)....only then will that HOPE DIE.

We need to hasten that day.

[Pharaoh]

This is my first post here.
So my answer will be short and to the point.
I as a muslim will post my reply to this "letter".

1- "am writing you as an aknowledged enemy. You cannot convince me that Israel should not exist, that it was founded wrongly, or that Zion does not belong to the Jews. I know you believe the land belongs to you. That is your right. But know that I and the great majority of Jews believe otherwise...and will always believe so"

If the great majority of jews believe otherwise and their total number is less than 50 million then more than 1 billion muslim around the world think it belongs to muslims.
That if we speak about who deserves the land in terms of numbers.

2-" I do not understand how you sustain your belief. The Turkish census data shows that Jerusalem, built by King David, your cousin, home of Jesus, a man Mohammed recognized as a prophet and the home of "the people of the book"...that data shows that throughout history, despite the diasporas...Jerusalem has ALWAYS been majority Jewish. "

that is completly untrue my friend and i know i cant check this belief of yours by just trying to convience you otherwise but this percentage may help you to understand that for 1400 years Jerusalem and all Palestine was inhabited by arabs:
the true population estimation back in 1918 (the year of Belfour Declaration):
Muslim arabs:512,000
christian arabs:61,000
jews:66,000

3-"More recently, the mideast was owned by the British, and then that 1% of the mideast that historically belonged to the Children of Israel was again returned to the Jews."

Ok if you want to talk about to whom Palestine really belongs then it doesnt belong to the jews.
After wondering in the sinia desert for 40 years the jews found out that Palestine isnt empty,it was inhabited by strong people that the jews called them the "giants".
Some jews refused to fight them and they left but the other jews who stayed fought them and were victorious.
The reason that those "giants" cant be found anywhere nowadays is that jews during their holy wars to conquer all palestine they had a principle of not being mercifull with the unbelievers (the giants) so the jews killed all of the "giants" families including women and children so the "giants" had 2 options:1-stay and fight to the death 2-Run away.
Those who ran away were ofcourse assimilated by other people and so the "giants" ceased to exist.
This "holy war" kinda reminds me of 1948.
Were the palestinians faced the same 2 options.
450,000 chosed to flee in 1948
750,000 chosed to flee in 1967
Others who stayed were massacered (example:the deir yassen massacre)

4-"Even Mohammed spoke of the Jews returning to take custody of Zion....so I do not understand your objections except in terms of pride"

Yes prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said that jews will conquer Jerusalem 2 times.
Once happened before.
This is the second time.
But prophet Mohammed didnt say give Jerusalem for the jews he said other things that i chose not to tell in this topic.

5-"And pride....who has done more to HUMILIATE the Arab people than the Arab leaders. Who massacred their people in Syria (Qana), in Jordan, in Iraq, in Saudi Arabia? Who lowered themselves to attaking a fledgling state with overwhelming numbers as it was born? To genocide those who had survived the genocide? Who was SO COWARDLY to attack a nation on its holiest day...the day of mourning...when the men were fasting? Who supports proven LIARS like Arafat, whom the late King Hussein of Jordan (he who said "Jordan is Palestine") told that "he (Arafat) never met a bridge he couldn't double cross."

Yes the arab leaders are bastards and traitors if you ask me.
They are the reason why the arabs lost the previous wars.
But do you really think attacking on the yom kippur day was an act of cowardness??
I mean looks on what were dealing with here:
Israel attacked without warning the Iraqi nuclear reactor and destroyed it.(ofcourse if an arab country did the same to Israel maybe the US will declare war on this terrorist country)
Israel attacked Egypt without warning with Britian and France in the 1956 war.
And a true act of cowardness in my point of view is when you attack and kill the one who kept you safe for 1400 years.
Its an act of cowardness to kill the one who gave you the right to practise your religion in complete freedom for 1400 years.
Its an act of cowardness when you kill the one who took you as refuge when Europe used to kill you and torture you just because you are a jew.
That is an act of cowardness in my point of view.

6-"I do not understand how a proud Arab people can adopt tactics of bombing full disco, old-age homes, pizza parlors, buses and bar mitzvahs... Sniper attacks on old women and children"

Yeah well the palestinians dont have an army no?
They dont have RPG's to destroy Israeli tanks no?
They dont have good air defence system to destroy Israeli apaches and F16's no?
Humm and lets reverse things up...i sometimes wonder how could the "chosen people" commite horrible crimes against the palestinians such as the dir yassen massacre,the destruction of king david hotel,the massacers of Sabra and shatilla,the killing of more than 1000 Egyptian POW during the 1967 war.
Yup such things makes me wonder....

7-"Just as the Jews hunted down the Nazi's after the holocaust, any destruction of Israel..an attack on Judaism...will be met in kind. An eye for an eye"

So you acknowledge the existance of An Eye For An Eye rule huh?
Good then consider what Hamas are doing now as an eye for an eye.
I mean this is their principe after all...and seems your not against it.good.

8-"I promise you, personally, that should Israel ever fall, before the end of my lifetime Mecca and Medina will be ash...the desert soaked in blood and tears. If G-d himself does not send an avenging angel...I, and thousands of others like me, will do the job ourselves. The destruction of Israel will result in the destruction of every holy place to Islam. This I swear to you."

If Israel would fall that means Judaism failed...cause remind me if im wrong in your writtings there is nothing said about a "3rd return" right?!
So if Israel would fall i wont worry much about Mecca and Medina.

It was nice replying to your peacefull letter (except the last part,i do believe that you agree with me).

[MGB8]

Cousin,

your response shows that you have bought too much of your own propaganda, and care nothing for doing the leg work to find out the truth.

First, there are not billions of Arabs or Muslims.

Second, if the Chineese, the most populace ethnicity on earth, claimed that Medina was theirs, since they have more numbers woulr that make them correct? According to your logic it would. Prepare to hand over the oil fields to China. And then to India and the Hindu's.

Third, you forget history. The land HAS NOT been populated undistrurbed since the Calif's conquered it. The CHRISTIANS conquered it in the crusades. The Egyptians, NOT ARABS, conquered it later. The Turks conquered it several times, and there were other smaller conquests. In fact, there it has been several centuries since Arabs ruled Israel.

You use the term "Palestine" to describe the land - that's a PAGAN term - given to the land by the Romans, to punish the jews for revolting against them.

Learn your history, cousin, not just what your PR masters tell you to repeat.

Fourth, I said JERUSALEM, not "Palestine" (which, until the 60's was a term Arab nations called "Zionist propaganda") - you are right that Jews have been a minority in Palestine as a hole for a long time - although there has NOT been a stable population in Palestine, nor was their one, until the late late 1800's. When the Jews began to return in numbers, as the Prophet Mohammed foretold they would.


Fifth, Israel is rumored to have nuclear weapons, and is known to have delivery capabilities from planes, missle bunkers and also submarines. But, even if they weren't able to do as G-d did when he punished the Pharoh for his misdeeds, I PROMISE you, the surviving Jews will.

Mecca, Media, Cairo, Riddya, Damascus, Baghdad, Tehran, Ramallah, Amman.....every major Arab/Muslim population center would be destroyed by a nuclear weapon or other weapon of mass destruction.

Understand that. You will not convince me and others away from this path. The word of the Qu'ran will be followed by the people of the book - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The destruction of Israel, G-d forbid it ever comes to be, will be met very quickly by the destruction of the Arab world. If you want to test the resolve of this promise - do so at your own risk. But know that Israeli and Jewish resolve has been tested time and time again - and has never failed.

Should you kill us....we will not fail in killing you. Mutually assured destruction. Prepare to mourn your lost millions...but they will not be innocents, for they will have allowed, if not encouraged, a crime upon the Jews, and so they will be judged and punished.

[Pharaoh]

"your response shows that you have bought too much of your own propaganda, and care nothing for doing the leg work to find out the truth"

Dear cousin,
First of all lets agree to step aside all the "brainwashed" and "propaganda" accusations cause it will lead us no where.
Lets agree that if i post something that you doubt about it i will try to get a link from your side meaning a jewish site if not then neutral and if not an arab one (the later your free not to believe but atleast consider)
Same thing for you,if you wanna prove something contrary to what im saying plz start by arab link then neutral then jewish.

"First, there are not billions of Arabs or Muslims"

Tell you the truth im a little confused whether it is a Milliar or a Billion in English,cause i think in arabic we use the word billion.
Anyway i assure you that from 5 billion people walking on earth 1 to 1,2 of them are Muslims making Islam the secong largest religion in the world.

"Second, if the Chineese, the most populace ethnicity on earth, claimed that Medina was theirs, since they have more numbers woulr that make them correct? According to your logic it would. Prepare to hand over the oil fields to China. And then to India and the Hindu's."

Its not me who raised the number thing.
Anyway seems it was a misunderstanding,so lets move on.

"Third, you forget history. The land HAS NOT been populated undistrurbed since the Calif's conquered it. The CHRISTIANS conquered it in the crusades. The Egyptians, NOT ARABS, conquered it later. The Turks conquered it several times, and there were other smaller conquests. In fact, there it has been several centuries since Arabs ruled Israel."

Yes the crusades conquered Palestine for about 100 years and stayed in some parts of it for another 200 years or so but still the cities that they conquered wasnt full of Europeans only no but chrisitan and muslim and jewish arabs were living in those cities too and logically the muslims were the overwhelming majority.
Do you remember the Jerusalem massacre? The crusaders killed thousends of chrisitian and muslim arabs which gives you an idea that Jerusalem was very much inhabited and some kind of capital of Palestine due to its religious importance to the 3 religions.
Yes then the Egyptian conquered it later but even then Palestine was full of arabs.And during that time there were no big difference between the nationalities of arabs.Arabs considered themselves as a single body untill the destruction of the Ottoman empire (maybe a little earlier).
Turks conquered it yes...majority turks in palestine? No.
Muhammed ali conquered Palestine....majority Egyptians?No
Get my point?
So for 1400 arabs were inhabiting palestine.

"Fourth, I said JERUSALEM, not "Palestine" (which, until the 60's was a term Arab nations called "Zionist propaganda") - you are right that Jews have been a minority in Palestine as a hole for a long time - although there has NOT been a stable population in Palestine, nor was their one, until the late late 1800's. When the Jews began to return in numbers, as the Prophet Mohammed foretold they would."

Good so you do agree that the imigration of jews only started since the creation of the Zionist body during the late 1800's?
And particulary after the Belfour promisse and the reign of Hitler.
As about what Prophet Mohammed said,i already answered you on this in my first reply.

"Fifth, Israel is rumored to have nuclear weapons, and is known to have delivery capabilities from planes, missle bunkers and also submarines. But, even if they weren't able to do as G-d did when he punished the Pharoh for his misdeeds, I PROMISE you, the surviving Jews will."

As i said before i wont worry much about the Arab states and Mecca and Medina if Israel would one day fall.
But plz lets stop the threatening.

"Understand that. You will not convince me and others away from this path. The word of the Qu'ran will be followed by the people of the book - an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The destruction of Israel, G-d forbid it ever comes to be, will be met very quickly by the destruction of the Arab world. If you want to test the resolve of this promise - do so at your own risk. But know that Israeli and Jewish resolve has been tested time and time again - and has never failed."

You still didnt answer me on the Eye for an Eye theory.
Plz re-read my first reply.

Many thanks.

[Mercury]

Pharaoh,

not being a religious person I don't accept any land rights which are derived from religion (Judaism included). Now can you base the rights of arabs on palestine without involving Islam?

[Pharaoh]

Mercury,
Religiously speaking muslims dont have "right to stay" so to speak in any where in the world.
Muslims are interested in the El aq'sa mosque as it is the 3rd most holiest shrine/mosque in Islam.
Palestinians dont base their "right" in Palestine by religious claims.
That is only the case for El aq'sa mosque and other mosques and historical sites that were build after the conquest of Palestine by the arabs.
So you see religious claims arent used much by Palestinians.

So now lets go to point and speak about the rights of arabs in Palestine without involving Islam.
Imagine that there is this big house,that its founder origin cant be found no more,imagine that this house used to be owned by whoever is able to conquer it.
Usually every conquerer of this house dont kick out all the family that used to live in it but still some members of this last family chosed to search for another house,one of their own.
So one time this conquerer comes and conquer the house in a very noble way,he said to all the families living in this house that they can stay in it,keep doing all the things that they used to do,total freedom except that they have to pay a "rent" if they want to keep practising their habites in this house.
The conquered families find this a good offer indeed as the rent wasnt high and they were able enough to conclude that if they go away they wont be better tolerated by anyone more than this conquerer.
So as a minority they keep on living side by side with the new family in this big house.
They faced other conqueres together.They were conquered for a small time but still they managed to re conquer the house.
So more than 1400 years has passed where the new family keep on living peacefully with the other previous families untill one day the new family (the majority) found out that the minority,the previous family wants to retake all of the house,saying they lived there once before the new ones.
The current majority family found out that this is outrageous since they have been living here for many generations,for more than 1400 years.And after all this time they found out the guest wants to take all of the house or the majority of it to himself.
The owner family say no but then suddenly violence began,the host started using violence to kick out the current owners of the house.And this violence was successiful,the previous family help the majority of the house.
But the problem is the once was owner of the house seeks revenge and the restortion of the house by any way possible either by peace or violence because he was kicked out of most of the house and keeps on getting hit and attacked by the previous family.

I dont know if this short story helped but i will be more direct now

The muslims keept living in Palestine for 1400,no other people who lived there once were as numerous as the arabs or held the land as long as the muslims did.
Why im saying muslims now is because the majority of christians who lived in Palestine during the muslim conquest of palestine chosed to be muslims like other people in other countries did (Egypt,Syria,...).
So the majority of todays palestinains are not from Arabia they are the chrisitans who converted to Islam.

Mercury you say you wanna talk about who have the right to stay in Palestine without involving religion,well the return of jews to Palestine was invoked by religion.
Some jews in Europe who suffered from discrimination and abused wanted to leave Europe and make a home for themselves that is for jews only.
They thought Netherlands or a country in Middle of Afirca could be their home but then they chosed Palestine as a logical place where jews would accept to leave their countries around the world to go "Zion".
Zionists base their right of return on the existance of a jewish empire in Palestine for 100 years (David kingdom) then civil wars errupted and the kingdom was divided to several mini kingdoms that stayed for about 200 years untill the conquest of Palestine by the Iraqis.

Israelis didnt "get" the lands that they are living in it now by peacefull negotiations as what the current Israeli and American government demand the Palestinians to do.
But it was by terror and i dont have to remind you of what happened in 1948.Or even before it by the Hagana.
You may probebly answer me by saying that the UN decided to divide Palestine half for palestinians and half for Israelis but even your leaders back then said that wont agree on such terms in the long run.
Anyway the UN resolution was influenced by the intervention of Britain who gave the zionists a clear promisse of a jewish state in Palestine by the Belfour promisse.
As the British empire was beginning to shrink Britain accpeted to leave palestine and make a home for zionists who by this way could be their allies in the region and would be a stab in the back for any Arab unity.
This thinking proved to be well grounded.
When Britian wanted to avenge from Nasser,Israel didnt mind joining in cause at that time Britain was still considered by jews as Israel best friend.

As a proof of Israel terror tactics to force the Palestinians to flee from their houses and their villages 450,000 palestinians were forced to flee in 1948 and 650,000 were forced to flee in 1967.
And i will end my reply by these 2 quotes:

Dayan once said:"we came to this country which was already populated by arabs and we are establishing a hebrew that is a jewish state here...Jewish villages were built in the place of arab villages.You do not even know the names of these arab villages,and i do not blame you because these geography bookd no longer exist,not only do the books not exist,the arab villages are not there either.Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul Gevat-in the place of Jibta,Sarid-in the place of Hanefia and kefar yehoshua-in the place of tell shaman.there is not once place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population"

And here is another QUOTE from Ben yehuda,he says:"I felt within me a stupefying collapse" when he contemplates the arab village being absrobed into an exemplary jewish settlement"

[danholo]

Man, this is like reading Radio Islam or electoronic intifada all over again.

Jews bought land from happy Arab sellers when they came. No-one was terrorized. It was totally peaceful land acquisition with money.
Jews base their claim to the land simply because it is Jewish land. Jews were driven out and they came back to where they came from.

Deir Yassin was a battle, just like Jenin. The tendency for Arabs to turn everything around happens very often, like branding the Hagana a terror group just like Hamas or Islamic Jihad, which simply just demonstrates the unwillingess to use the tool that is most precious to us: the brain.

Of course when these "truths" are repeated over and over again they are believed. These "truths" also appear as facts in respectable sources like Arab school textbooks...

[danholo]

MGB8:

Do you live by the laws of Hammurabi or Torah?

Your view of "eye to eye" does not concur with the rabbinical interpretation of Torah, rather it is very much similar to what Hammurabi taught.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Pharaoh
So one time this conquerer comes and conquer the house in a very noble way,he said to all the families living in this house that they can stay in it,keep doing all the things that they used to do,total freedom except that they have to pay a "rent" if they want to keep practising their habites in this house.

I don't know if there is such a thing as "very noble way to conquer a house", but let's compare two conquests anyways. After the arab conquest all non-muslims (including jews) became second-rate subjects. They were levied an additional head-tax, they became subject to many humiliating laws such as prohibition to ride horses, to build houses higher than those of muslim neighbours etc. Occasionally they were also expelled from some provinces, their places of worship destroyed and their property seized. This is your very noble way? Now, I wouldn't say that the status of arabs in israel is ideal. Some things need to be improved and, given time, they will. Still the israeli arab citizens live in far better conditions than arabs in any of neighbouring arab countries, including Egypt.

Originally posted by Pharaoh

The muslims keept living in Palestine for 1400,no other people who lived there once were as numerous as the arabs or held the land as long as the muslims did.

Jews kept living in Palestine for 3200 (from around 1200 BC to the present, with a short break in VI century BC). They are also now more numerous in Israel than arabs ever were.

Originally posted by Pharaoh

They thought Netherlands or a country in Middle of Afirca could be their home

Netherlands?????

Originally posted by Pharaoh

Israelis didnt "get" the lands that they are living in it now by peacefull negotiations as what the current Israeli and American government demand the Palestinians to do.
But it was by terror and i dont have to remind you of what happened in 1948

Both sides used terror back then and it was the arabs who used it first.

Originally posted by Pharaoh

As a proof of Israel terror tactics to force the Palestinians to flee from their houses and their villages 450,000 palestinians were forced to flee in 1948 and 650,000 were forced to flee in 1967.

And what about jews who had to flee from arab countries? How many still remain there?

[Mediocrates]

Does Paroh set any criteria at all for Palestinians or is it simply, "everything instantly now, there is no such thing as negotiation". I wonder if Paroh would complain if WE called a hudna openly....?

Also for like the millionth time "eye for an eye" is about parity of punishment - its about fairness and equity not revenge.

[jewbyc]

This is a from a web site

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf1.html#b
MYTH

“The Jews have no claim to the land they call Israel.”

FACT

A common misperception is that all the Jews were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem in the year 70 C.E. and then, 1,800 years later, suddenly returned to Palestine demanding their country back. In reality, the Jewish people have maintained ties to their historic homeland for more than 3,700 years.

The Jewish people base their claim to the Land of Israel on at least four premises: 1) the Jewish people settled and developed the land; 2) the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people; 3) the territory was captured in defensive wars and 4) God promised the land to the patriarch Abraham.

Even after the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem and the beginning of the exile, Jewish life in the Land of Israel continued and often flourished. Large communities were reestablished in Jerusalem and Tiberias by the ninth century. In the 11th century, Jewish communities grew in Rafah, Gaza, Ashkelon, Jaffa and Caesarea.

The Crusaders massacred many Jews during the 12th century, but the community rebounded in the next two centuries as large numbers of rabbis and Jewish pilgrims immigrated to Jerusalem and the Galilee. Prominent rabbis established communities in Safed, Jerusalem and elsewhere during the next 300 years. By the early 19th century — years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement — more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel.1 The 78 years of nation-building, beginning in 1870, culminated in the reestablishment of the Jewish State.

Israel's international "birth certificate" was validated by the promise of the Bible; uninterrupted Jewish settlement from the time of Joshua onward; the Balfour Declaration of 1917; the League of Nations Mandate, which incorporated the Balfour Declaration; the United Nations partition resolution of 1947; Israel's admission to the UN in 1949; the recognition of Israel by most other states; and, most of all, the society created by Israel's people in decades of thriving, dynamic national existence.

MYTH

“Palestine was always an Arab country.”

FACT
The term "Palestine" is believed to be derived from the Philistines, an Aegean people who, in the 12th Century B.C.E., settled along the Mediterranean coastal plain of what are now Israel and the Gaza Strip. In the second century C.E., after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from this Latin name.3

The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E., living under a tribal confederation until being united under the first monarch, King Saul. The second king, David, established Jerusalem as the capital around 1000 B.C.E. David's son, Solomon built the Temple soon thereafter and consolidated the military, administrative and religious functions of the kingdom. The nation was divided under Solomon's son, with the northern kingdom (Israel) lasting until 722 B.C.E., when the Assyrians destroyed it, and the southern kingdom (Judah) surviving until the Babylonian conquest in 586 B.C.E. The Jewish people enjoyed brief periods of sovereignty afterward before most Jews were finally driven from their homeland in 135 C.E.

Jewish independence in the Land of Israel lasted for more than 400 years. This is much longer than Americans have enjoyed independence in what has become known as the United States.4 In fact, if not for foreign conquerors, Israel would be 3,000 years old today.

Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not."5

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.6

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."7

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."8

Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War and Israel's capture of the West Bank.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Pharaoh

4-"Even Mohammed spoke of the Jews returning to take custody of Zion....so I do not understand your objections except in terms of pride"

Yes prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said that jews will conquer Jerusalem 2 times.
Once happened before.
This is the second time.
But prophet Mohammed didnt say give Jerusalem for the jews he said other things that i chose not to tell in this topic.

The Return of the Jews to the Holy Land :


[17:104] : "And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter (wa3’dul akhirati) cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations."

[59:2] : "He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book (Jews here?) to go forth from their homes at (till) the first banishment (Li awalil hashr-till the first gathering) you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes! "

[17:4] : "And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants*. "

*A literal translation is : Ye will then after (thumma) ascend (ta’lunna) to a great height (or station).

[17.7] If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.
[17.8] It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.




First comes Saturday, next comes Sunday....you know the drill