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Thread: Muslim call to thwart capitalism

  1. #1
    L@mplighterM
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    Muslim call to thwart capitalism

    Muslim call to thwart capitalism

    By Mark McCallum
    In Granada, Spain

    An Islamic conference in the Spanish city of Granada has called on Muslims around the world to help bring about the end of the capitalist system.

    The call came at a conference titled 'Islam in Europe' attended by about 2,000 Muslims.

    Earlier this week Granada saw the first official opening of a mosque in Spain for more than 500 years.

    The keynote speaker at the conference was Umar Ibrahim Vadillo, leader of the worldwide Muslim group known as Murabitun.

    The group is strongly opposed to capitalism.

    Mr Vadillo said America's economic interests had become the religion of the world and that people slavishly adjusted their lifestyles to suit the capitalist model.

    But he said capitalism cannot sustain itself and is bound to collapse.

    Disapproval of terror

    Mr Vadillo, a Spanish Muslim, called on all followers of Islam to stop using western currencies such as the dollar, the pound and the euro and instead to return to the use of the gold dinar.

    He said the introduction of the gold dinar to the world's economies would be the single most unifying event for Muslims in the modern era.

    Shortly afterwards, he said, the capitalist structure would quickly fall and it would make the Wall Street crash of 1929 seem minor by comparison.

    The conference also heard from Abu Bakr Rieger, a German Muslim.

    He said Islam could only be practised in Europe in a traditional way, not in one adapted to European values and structures.

    He also said private terrorism would find no approval among European Muslims.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3061833.stm


    So here we are in 2003, Muslims are holding conferences and planning to collapse our monetary system. A German Muslim wants Shari law in the EU, what is not clear is what he means by private funded terrorism. Does he mean that state sponsored terrorism would get the stamp of approval from the Muslim community?

    I don’t think that their wish list will be realized at the moment but in 10-20 years it could very well become a reality.

  2. #2
    andak01
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    I am reading some articles about Islamic banking, a subject about which I am fairly ignorant. Still, if you take out the Arabic names and mentions of Allah and presented the concepts to an economist, he might just conclude they are reasonable. Let's take a central idea. What is the nature of money? Does money produce anything? Is money a commodity? Defining money as a commodity takes our priorities away from production and centers them on making money more profitable. But money doesn't produce anything.

    How about risk? When a partnership is formed, shouldn't the partner assume the same risks? In a banking relationship, when the business fails, the debtor is exposed both to the failure of the business as well as to the interest charged. This is unfair to the debtor, since the banker gets paid for making a loan to a failed business. On the other hand, if the business is a smashing success, the banker is still limited to a predefined interest rate. This is unfair on the other side.

    Islamic banking (interest free) is practiced around the world now. I am not enough of an economist to explain how it all works, but any system of banking at least deserves to be considered on its own merits. I don't think it is the job of Islam to destroy economies, but if Islamic ideas can advance mankind, why not consider them?

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Andak:


    I am reading some articles about Islamic banking, a subject about which I am fairly ignorant. Still, if you take out the Arabic names and mentions of Allah and presented the concepts to an economist, he might just conclude they are reasonable. Let's take a central idea. What is the nature of money? Does money produce anything? Is money a commodity? Defining money as a commodity takes our priorities away from production and centers them on making money more profitable. But money doesn't produce anything.

    How about risk? When a partnership is formed, shouldn't the partner assume the same risks? In a banking relationship, when the business fails, the debtor is exposed both to the failure of the business as well as to the interest charged. This is unfair to the debtor, since the banker gets paid for making a loan to a failed business. On the other hand, if the business is a smashing success, the banker is still limited to a predefined interest rate. This is unfair on the other side.

    Islamic banking (interest free) is practiced around the world now. I am not enough of an economist to explain how it all works, but any system of banking at least deserves to be considered on its own merits. I don't think it is the job of Islam to destroy economies, but if Islamic ideas can advance mankind, why not consider them?


    Please don't tell me you are a communist..... Socialism is practiced by almost each and every regime in the Arab world and as an economic system has failed miserably. The unemployement is high, internal investment is low, beuracratic and military costs have sky-rocketed..... Talking about money and re-phrasing Marx does not do it.

  4. #4
    SteveMetch
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    Smile Its deja vu all over again

    Nikita Khrushchev (His statement that communism would triumph over capitalism.)

    “Whether you like it our not, history is on our side. We will bury you."
    Nikita Khrushchev
    November 1956

    The fundamental problem with Communism and Islamism is that there is no money in it.

  5. #5
    L@mplighterM
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    Originally posted by andak01
    Islamic banking (interest free) is practiced around the world now. I am not enough of an economist to explain how it all works, but any system of banking at least deserves to be considered on its own merits. I don't think it is the job of Islam to destroy economies, but if Islamic ideas can advance mankind, why not consider them? [/B]

    I laughed so hard that I almost puked when I read that.

    ISLAM SAVES MANKIND!

    LET ISLAM PUT A CAMEL IN YOUR GARAGE!

    Islamic countries are morally corrupt and they don’t have anything to offer the world except terrorism.

  6. #6
    andak01
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    Re: Its deja vu all over again

    Originally posted by SteveMetch
    The fundamental problem with Communism and Islamism is that there is no money in it.
    There never was. That's why those who concentrate their lives around earning money will alway want us dead. That is the central dispute between Islam and the West. It was the central dispute with the Meccan pilgrim traders of the 7th century and with the hypocrites of Medina as well. "If we put God and our communities first above our profits, we'll lose money." Islam is a socialist movement, not communism. But, in the polarization caused by the Cold War, most Muslim countries became allied with Moscow.

    Still, don't get me wrong. I don't think any of these so called Muslim countries even approach an Islamic way of life. The lavish lifestyles of their rulers disclaim that. And I'm not waiting around for some Calif to make my own life better.
    Last edited by andak01; 07-15-2003 at 12:51 PM.

  7. #7
    andak01
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    Originally posted by L@mplighterM
    Islamic countries are morally corrupt and they don’t have anything to offer the world except terrorism.
    Islamic countries by and large do not practice Islam. I know many Muslims that would agree with me. Iraq under Saddam????? Iran under the Ayatollah????????? Sorry, that's nothing to do with Islam.

    Lamplighter,

    Go back and forget that the question has anything to do with Islam. What is the natural state of money? Is it a commodity? Forget about anything else and answer that question honestly.
    Last edited by andak01; 07-15-2003 at 01:01 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Andak:


    There never was. That's why those who concentrate their lives around earning money will alway want us dead.


    Who, Muslims? What are you talking about? Any religion in the world prophesizes spiritual over materialistic. This includes Judaism, Christianiaty, Budhism, Shin-Tao, Hinduism, and the Booga-Booga religion of some Amazon tribe.


    That is the central dispute between Islam and the West.


    WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! There is a dispute between Islam and the West? I did not physically know that Islam is a place of residence.


    It was the central dispute with the Meccan pilgrim traders of the 7th century and with the hypocrites of Medina as well.

    Interesting. Apparently there is a dispute in the Muslim world over the use of money. Too interesting.


    "If we put God and our communities first above our profits, we'll lose money."


    Actually you can do both.

    Islam is a socialist movement, not communism.


    That's very revealing. Apparently Islam is not a religion but a social-economic movement on par with communism!!!!!!!!!!! So Islam is a political organization? This goes against everything I ever knew, or at least thought I knew, about Islam and religions in general.

    The reality is that the Baathist/nationalistic regimes of the Arab world chose pseudo-socialism as an economic system but this has nothing to do with Islam. There are also Christian and Jewish Arabs who are also part of these countries.

    Actually the biggest welfare state in the world is Saudi Arabia where all the socialist structures are financed by oil revenues. This lead to such crisis where 50% of the country does not want to go to school resulting in some 60% literacy rates if not less!!!!! All the industry jobs are taken by non-Saudis including both the blue and white color work.... Most of the oil industry in Saudi Arabia is run by foreign work-force the world-over including most of the engineering and high-tech positions.

    Hell Saudi Arabia could not even find enough educated locals to man its Western sophisticated weapons and had to hire mercenaries to substitute for the military!!!! The funniest part is that SA has a very big problem with finding not just local men for the military but FIT men. Most Saudi man study the Koran and with the government financial backing don't see too many reasons for exercise.

    Not to forget that in SA has the lowest level of college graduates even to the level of the entire Arab World. This is the funnies stuff. Apparently Arab oil socialism leads to completely uneducated societies who have nothing better to do then study the Koran, if they are not lazy, or join Osama may be just to get into shape.


    But, in the polarization caused by the Cold War, most Muslim countries became allied with Moscow.


    Uhm...... There is a little more to that history then what you put above.


    Still, don't get me wrong. I don't think any of these so called Muslim countries even approach an Islamic way of life. The lavish lifestyles of their rulers disclaim that. And I'm not waiting around for some Calif to make my own life better.


    Do you work?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Actually there are Muslim states which have capitalist-style market economies such as Egypt, Turkey, Azerbadjan, Tajikistan, Kazhakstan, other Muslim CIS countries, Malaysia, Indonesia, Uganda, Chad, Albania and other..... Don't confuse some idiotic parts of the Arab world, such as Syria and Saudi Arabia, with the rest of the Muslim world.

  10. #10
    L@mplighterM
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    The US ended the silver standard back in 1968, prior to that paper money were really silver certificates and you could cash in the paper for silver. Gold certificates ended back in 1933 and it was actually illegal to hold paper money that was gold certificates.

    Seems to me that was a commodity.

    Currently there are many factors that regulate how much money is released into the economy. It’s a difficult process to fine-tune the economy and it requires a central body to regulate the flow of money.

    The market, economy, taxation, other factors regulate the value of money and I think capitalism is a splendid system.

  11. #11
    L@mplighterM
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    HISTORY OF AMERICAN CURRENCY

    A bit off topic here.

    http://www.sjprep.org/tclifford/USweb/Money/MONEY.html

  12. #12
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by andak01
    Islamic countries by and large do not practice Islam. I know many Muslims that would agree with me. Iraq under Saddam????? Iran under the Ayatollah????????? Sorry, that's nothing to do with Islam.

    I think you live in a fantasy world if you think that Islamic countries don’t practice Islam. They all do!

    Perhaps you think that they don’t practice it because it doesn’t fit into your image of Islam.

    I suppose that you wouldn’t classify Turkey as a country that practices Islam but it does. In the last election an Islamic fundamentalist party walked away with (80% ? cant recall the actual percentage) and it’s the moderate army that stops the elected officials from getting out of line.

  13. #13
    andak01
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    Originally posted by L@mplighterM
    I think you live in a fantasy world if you think that Islamic countries don’t practice Islam. They all do!
    How on earth are you qualified to say that? I wouldn't begin to be able to tell you to what degree Jews are following Judaeism without an intense study of Judaeic scriptures. I form my opinion from a study of the Qur'an and the Sunna and from my reading of the news and from my own travels to several Muslim countries and from my many aquaintances who have either lived in or traveled to almost ever Muslim country. And if you want to know, it is my reading of the very articles posted on these boards that claim to show how bad Islam is, which has led me to the conclusion that no Muslim countries are following Islam. As often as possible, I have read what was being said and researched for what the Qur'an had to say and sometimes conferred with Imams to make certain I was correct in my own interpretation. At the same time, I am inspired by the history of Islamic scholarship, of those who actively sought the truth from many sources. There is a Hadith that says: "Seek knowledge, even as far as China." I pray that you will do the same and that someday we can inhabit this earth together without fear of each other. There is no religion closer to Islam than Judaeism. Judaeic monotheism is mirrored in our own concept of Tawhid. If you are an aetheist and don't fear pious Jews then you have no more to fear from pious Muslims who truly follow the Qur'an and Sunna and do not subscribe to the destruction of the world.
    Last edited by andak01; 07-17-2003 at 06:45 AM.

  14. #14
    andak01
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    Originally posted by Mil
    Who, Muslims? What are you talking about? Any religion in the world prophesizes spiritual over materialistic. This includes Judaism, Christianiaty, Budhism, Shin-Tao, Hinduism, and the Booga-Booga religion of some Amazon tribe.
    Which is OK as long as it doesn't interfere with state supremacy. And granted, through history most of those states have been theocracies. Still, the bloodshed of theocracies coming up against religious followers, though it has a longer history is no worse than that we have seen with secular empires like communist Russia or Victorian England.

    WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! There is a dispute between Islam and the West? I did not physically know that Islam is a place of residence.
    As an economic and social system, absolutely. That portion of Islam can only be practiced under Sharia.

    Interesting. Apparently there is a dispute in the Muslim world over the use of money. Too interesting.
    Mecca was a popular pilgrim destination prior to the birth of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). When the Meccan powers that be saw how popular Muhammad was becoming, they offered him money and power to stop preaching his religion. They were worried that the Muslims would disrupt their trade. Mecca in the time of Jahiliya was like a town out of the old American West. Imagine if some popular preacher had come to Tombstone and begun to empty the bars, casinos and whorehouses by drawing people to religion. Almost certainly someone would have tried to kill him. There were multiple attempts on Muhammad's life.

    Actually you can do both.
    Try telling that to the owner of a porno shop as you remove his customers one-by-one.

    That's very revealing. Apparently Islam is not a religion but a social-economic movement on par with communism!!!!!!!!!!! So Islam is a political organization? This goes against everything I ever knew, or at least thought I knew, about Islam and religions in general.
    Islam has something to say about every aspect of our lives. That includes our social and business relations as well as political structures. But it doesn't say that we have either a right or a duty to overthrow governments that allow us to pray freely. In fact, Saddam's own government would have been an ideal candidate for lesser Jihad as it is defined in the Sunnah.

  15. #15
    L@mplighterM
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    Originally posted by andak01
    How on earth are you qualified to say that? I wouldn't begin to be able to tell you to what degree Jews are following Judaeism without an intense study of Judaeic scriptures. I form my opinion from a study of the Qur'an and the Sunna and from my reading of the news and from my own travels to several Muslim countries and from my many aquaintances who have either lived in or traveled to almost ever Muslim country. And if you want to know, it is my reading of the very articles posted on these boards that claim to show how bad Islam is, which has led me to the conclusion that no Muslim countries are following Islam. As often as possible, I have read what was being said and researched for what the Qur'an had to say and sometimes conferred with Imams to make certain I was correct in my own interpretation. At the same time, I am inspired by the history of Islamic scholarship, of those who actively sought the truth from many sources. There is a Hadith that says: "Seek knowledge, even as far as China." I pray that you will do the same and that someday we can inhabit this earth together without fear of each other. There is no religion closer to Islam than Judaeism. Judaeic monotheism is mirrored in our own concept of Tawhid. If you are an aetheist and don't fear pious Jews then you have no more to fear from pious Muslims who truly follow the Qur'an and Sunna and do not subscribe to the destruction of the world.

    You appear to be making your posts with a straight face. Do you ever play poker?

    I truly don’t know if you’re serious or not but if you are it seems to me that you’re misguided. Perhaps you fashion yourself as a prophet that is going to send the message to the world that Muslims don’t practice Islam in their respective countries.

    The fact is that they do practice Islam and that is the cause for concern in the west. Search and confer with Imams all you want but the fact remains that Islam isn’t a peaceful religion. Perhaps you feel that it should be a peaceful religion but that is certainly not the case although I’m certain that there are peaceful Muslims.

    I think finding peaceful Muslims (in most countries) is much like discovering a four-leaf clover in a field. You know very well that if you were to teach Islam according to the way that you see it in Islamic countries you’d be shot.

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