Palestinians respond to research data

[ibrodsky]

Mob attacks researchers who found few Palestinians want their old homes now in Israel By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
14 July 2003


A mob of about 100 Palestinian refugees stormed the office of a Ramallah polling organisation yesterday to stop it publishing a survey showing that five times as many refugees would prefer to settle permanently in a Palestinian state than return to their old homes in what is now Israel.

The protesters pelted Khalil Shikaki, the director of the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research, with eggs, smashed computers and assaulted the nine staff members on duty. A female worker was treated in hospital for her injuries. "This is a message for everyone not to tamper with our rights," one of the rioters said.

Dr Shikaki, a leading West Bank political scientist, was undeterred. He said he was still putting the survey results on the centre's website and seeking the widest possible exposure. "These people," he said, "had no idea what the results were. They were sold disinformation."

The poll, conducted among 4,500 refugees in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Lebanon and Jordan, was the first to ask where they would want to live if Israel recognised a right of return.

Only 10 per cent of the refugees chose Israel, even if they were allowed to live there with Palestinian citizenship; 54 per cent opted for the Palestinian state; 17 per cent for Jordan or Lebanon, and 2 per cent for other countries. Another 13 per cent rejected all these options, preferring to sit it out and wait for Israel to disappear, while 2 per cent didn't know.

The future of more than three million refugees is critical to any lasting peace. It was one of the unresolved issues that caused the July 2000 Camp David summit to break down.

• The Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad warned yesterday they would end a truce announced last month if the Palestinian Authority continued to try to disarm them.

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from article:

The future of more than three million refugees is critical to any lasting peace. It was one of the unresolved issues that caused the July 2000 Camp David summit to break down.

End quote.

To my line of thinking there aren’t 3,000,000 refugees in the WB and GS, I don’t have the original number before me but I seem to recall that it was around 500, 000.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html


In any event their offspring’s shouldn’t be considered refugees IMO, true they are children of refugees but that dosen’t make them refugees. I don’t know how many original refugees remain today but I’m certain that it’s a number substantially lowered than lets say 500,000.

I believe that there are land claim issues that should be looked at and they should be solved with monetary compensation, less expenses of course. One issue in my mind becomes back taxes plus accrued interest and would become a major sticking point. I suppose that an actuary would have to calculate what compensation is forthcoming, if any. Based on the evidence that I’ve seen, the Arabs that left abandoned their land, so they can’t expect compensation IMO.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

To my line of thinking there aren’t 3,000,000 refugees in the WB and GS, I don’t have the original number before me but I seem to recall that it was around 500, 000.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html


In any event their offspring’s shouldn’t be considered refugees IMO, true they are children of refugees but that dosen’t make them refugees. I don’t know how many original refugees remain today but I’m certain that it’s a number substantially lowered than lets say 500,000.

I believe that there are land claim issues that should be looked at and they should be solved with monetary compensation, less expenses of course. One issue in my mind becomes back taxes plus accrued interest and would become a major sticking point. I suppose that an actuary would have to calculate what compensation is forthcoming, if any. Based on the evidence that I’ve seen, the Arabs that left abandoned their land, so they can’t expect compensation IMO.

If there are land claim rights for Palestinians then these same claims for rights should include the Jews who were expelled from Arab countries and Israel should demand that this issue be put on the negotiating table.

Palestinian strategy is threatened by a survey which shows that few Palestinians want to return or live in Israel. The Palestinians apparently want a state with no inhabitants.

[Mediocrates]

I'm sorry but whether the number is this or that doesn't make much difference if we ignore the timeline. 3 or 4 or 5 generations of so called refugee status is wishful thinking but has little or no legal standing. Likewise the Jews who were deported from the Maghrib and Mizhrai should consider that their claims might be void. Holocaust Jews who are only now collecting their own lost property or getting insurance claims settled are only getting what is theirs from vast amounts of documentation and tremendous pressure from the US.

But the main point is that Palestinians of somewhat dubious legal standing as refugees to begin with have little grounds to assert that they are in fact refugees at all any longer. They may claim to be a diaspora culture but that is not the same thing. If they were then virtually all Americans, Canadians, Kiwis, Argentinians...are refugees from somewhere which of course is ludicrous.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
The protesters pelted Khalil Shikaki, the director of the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey Research, with eggs...

Isn't it ironic! While thousands die of starvation throughout Africa, Ethiopia, etc., poor poor "refugee" Palestinians throw away eggs... Terror pays handsomely.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I'm sorry but whether the number is this or that doesn't make much difference if we ignore the timeline. 3 or 4 or 5 generations of so called refugee status is wishful thinking but has little or no legal standing. Likewise the Jews who were deported from the Maghrib and Mizhrai should consider that their claims might be void. Holocaust Jews who are only now collecting their own lost property or getting insurance claims settled are only getting what is theirs from vast amounts of documentation and tremendous pressure from the US.

But the main point is that Palestinians of somewhat dubious legal standing as refugees to begin with have little grounds to assert that they are in fact refugees at all any longer. They may claim to be a diaspora culture but that is not the same thing. If they were then virtually all Americans, Canadians, Kiwis, Argentinians...are refugees from somewhere which of course is ludicrous.

I agree with you. Right of return should be off the table. However from a strategic perspective if the Arabs continue to push for the right of return then Israel should counter with a demand for Arab recognition that Arab countries indeed did expel Jews and that these Jews are entitled to compensation from those Arab countries. If the Arabs balk at this then right of return for the Palestinians is off the table.

Most of the Arabs continue to push for rights of return because 1) it is a thorn in the side of Israel 2) demographics are not in Israel's favor - hence destruction of Israel as a Jewish state 3) many Arab countries want to get rid of their Palestinian populations. Palestinians still live as refugees in Lebanon without any rights.

On another issue - if Israel releases prisoners then it should be done with a demand that Israeli prisoners in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt be released. Arab concession for Israeli concession on both issues.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Revkha
I agree with you. Right of return should be off the table. However from a strategic perspective if the Arabs continue to push for the right of return then Israel should counter with a demand for Arab recognition that Arab countries indeed did expel Jews and that these Jews are entitled to compensation from those Arab countries. If the Arabs balk at this then right of return for the Palestinians is off the table.

Most of the Arabs continue to push for rights of return because 1) it is a thorn in the side of Israel 2) demographics are not in Israel's favor - hence destruction of Israel as a Jewish state 3) many Arab countries want to get rid of their Palestinian populations. Palestinians still live as refugees in Lebanon without any rights.

On another issue - if Israel releases prisoners then it should be done with a demand that Israeli prisoners in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt be released. Arab concession for Israeli concession on both issues.

It would seem the most unlikely of possibilities, but suppose the arab nations from which Jews have been expelled, agreed to the suggested quid pro quo. On the speculation, however remote, that this could happen, wouldn't such an offer have to be considered monumentally self defeating?

In no way am I seeking to counter your general view on the matter. It's just that this twist occurred to me and I'm curious as to what others might think on the matter.

[Communication]

Originally posted by MichaelC
It would seem the most unlikely of possibilities, but suppose the arab nations from which Jews have been expelled, agreed to the suggested quid pro quo. On the speculation, however remote, that this could happen, wouldn't such an offer have to be considered monumentally self defeating?

In no way am I seeking to counter your general view on the matter. It's just that this twist occurred to me and I'm curious as to what others might think on the matter.

No, Jews no longer want to live under Islamic/Arab rule. Morocco already offered the Jews a right of return and nobody's taking them up on it. What they want is acknowledgment of what happened, accountability, and perhaps compensation if the Pals receive it. If the Arab governments threw that on the table, the Jews would refuse to acknowledge it as a concession.

[Communication]

Please delete

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Communication
No, Jews no longer want to live under Islamic/Arab rule. Morocco already offered the Jews a right of return and nobody's taking them up on it. What they want is acknowledgment of what happened, accountability, and perhaps compensation if the Pals receive it. If the Arab governments threw that on the table, the Jews would refuse to acknowledge it as a concession.

Thanks Commo. I can see the link between mutual compensation and personally, as one of those Americans who take a harder line about transfer, think it a good idea. I understand the endless suffering and retribution that would be involved in forcible transfer, but an incentive program involving compensations significant enough to be effective seems like a program that could be at least partially successful.

It was just the linking of "right of return" for the pals to compensation for Jews evicted from their homes in arab nations that caused my concern.

[Mediocrates]

Right of Return is silly. People 4 generations removed from somewhere else are not refugees nor do they really have any legal standing to request anything other than some negotiated settlement for the rough value of whatever they left behind. It's true for the Palestinians and it's true for the Maghrib and Mizrai Jews as well. Yes Jews were kicked out of Bafghdad as they were kicked out of all of the Arab world. The best they can hope for is some parity for the value of whatever was left. Same thing for the Palestinians, approximate the value at that time and make up some number. You can't look at the present value because you can't guess that they would've stayed all those years otherwise. There are no do-overs, only a guess and an attempt at making some fair settlement. Anything else is ludicrous.

Eye on the bigger picture, people.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Right of Return is silly. People 4 generations removed from somewhere else are not refugees nor do they really have any legal standing to request anything other than some negotiated settlement for the rough value of whatever they left behind. It's true for the Palestinians and it's true for the Maghrib and Mizrai Jews as well. Yes Jews were kicked out of Bafghdad as they were kicked out of all of the Arab world. The best they can hope for is some parity for the value of whatever was left. Same thing for the Palestinians, approximate the value at that time and make up some number. You can't look at the present value because you can't guess that they would've stayed all those years otherwise. There are no do-overs, only a guess and an attempt at making some fair settlement. Anything else is ludicrous.

Eye on the bigger picture, people.

A level of compensation significant enough to cause movement would be a major turning point in this matter. It may be that such compensation will have to exceed the "then current" values to achieve that significance, but it seems worthwhile to consider.

[Mediocrates]

Or anything else, Michael. Cash would be the worst choice. Cash is junk. Construct a development consortium for Palestine and grant stock ownership in it, or a bank or who knows what else where you can concentrate the management in the hands of professionals and spread the ownership around. Think of the Native American Tribal casino model or the Native American Tribal oil and gas rights ownership model, for example. Anything but cash - what will they spend it on? It doesn't even have to be precise. You could give away maybe 4% of the ownership of redevelopment revenue in Iraq to displaced Jews, another 10% to Kurds or whatever. The Jews and the Kurds aren't going back, they just want what's reasonable. This has always been the problem even when the PA discusses it - they pull some ridiculous number out like a trillion dollars or something with too many zeros for my calculator. It's pointless, why not say a quadzigabillion and the big rock candy mountain too. That's where it always stalls.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Or anything else, Michael. Cash would be the worst choice. Cash is junk. Construct a development consortium for Palestine and grant stock ownership in it, or a bank or who knows what else where you can concentrate the management in the hands of professionals and spread the ownership around. Think of the Native American Tribal casino model or the Native American Tribal oil and gas rights ownership model, for example. Anything but cash - what will they spend it on? It doesn't even have to be precise. You could give away maybe 4% of the ownership of redevelopment revenue in Iraq to displaced Jews, another 10% to Kurds or whatever. The Jews and the Kurds aren't going back, they just want what's reasonable. This has always been the problem even when the PA discusses it - they pull some ridiculous number out like a trillion dollars or something with too many zeros for my calculator. It's pointless, why not say a quadzigabillion and the big rock candy mountain too. That's where it always stalls.

Good thinking, Medio.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Communication
No, Jews no longer want to live under Islamic/Arab rule. Morocco already offered the Jews a right of return and nobody's taking them up on it. What they want is acknowledgment of what happened, accountability, and perhaps compensation if the Pals receive it. If the Arab governments threw that on the table, the Jews would refuse to acknowledge it as a concession.

Morocco is just one country and until the recent bombings was somewhat more tolerant

Would the other Arab countries really consider acknowledgment of what they did to the Jews or would their extreme hatred of Israel/Jews prevent them (Do Arabs admit mistakes?) --- or would the Arabs call the bluff. There is limited unity in the Arab world to make this type of decision.

This is all academic of course.