Who are the Jews of Yesha?

[Kapiti]

Absolutely not. Religion should not dictate ones right to be able to live in the land. If the Palestinians are happy with Jews and Christians and Buddists living in their land but pledging allegiance to their government I am more than happy for this to occurr

If it initally takes a Jew free Palestine to get real peace however then all the Jews should get out of the region. This should not however be a long term objective.

quick question.

If you got to keep Jerusalem as your capital, no repatriation of Palestinian arabs to Israel, fair access to water, guaranteed peace for the forseeable future, would you give up ALL the land ?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Kapiti
Mediocrates
To suggest that a swap of Arab Israelis out of Israel for an equal swap of Jews out of Palestine is ludicrous because it equates the rights of the Jews to the Palestinian land to the rights of the Arab Israelis to the Israeli land. The Israeli Arabs earnt their right to live there because they had been living there for countless generations in most areas in a comprehensive majority. The Israeli Jews earnt their “perceived” right to the West Bank and Palestine by invading it, taking control and injecting settlements. Any Jews with a generational background in the West Bank and Gaza were always a substantial minority within the region.

You should put this under your name as a "signature", as the statement pretty much sums up your "position", such as it is. These words underline your ignorance in a manner rarely equalled on this board, though your "intellectual peers" are always striving to do so.

This kind of thinking constitutes a mental prison within which the thinker has confined himself and completely blinds that person to the acquisition of "actual" knowledge on the subject.

I don't think a person who believes what you have posted above has the ability to learn anything new. You have spewed your share of hatred since arriving at this board, and I don't see any value in your continued presence here, even as an object lesson concerning the results of a poor education.

[Communication]

Kapiti,

I just want to clarify an earlier post. What I suggested to that guy was not that Israeli Arabs be removed from where they are now living. Rather, I asked whether he would consider a land swap, involving Jewish settlements in the territories for areas where there is a large Arab majority inside Israel proper. Of course, if Israeli Arabs want to be Israeli, they should be allowed to remain citizens of the state. However, if an Israeli Arab goes through the trouble of correcting me when I refer to him as Israeli, saying that he considers himself Palestinian, then it would seem logical that he would prefer to live where he is living now, only under the Palestinian Authority. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Either way, the border is not likely to be fixed exactly according to the 67 borders when Jordan controlled the West Bank. For security reasons, land swaps will most likely be insisted upon by Israel and they will be necessary in order to connect the former West Bank with the Gaza Strip. The question of whether there will be a Palestinian state is no longer an issue. The issue is who feels most strongly about living under Israeli rule versus Palestinian rule.

Your other point about demographics is weak. While there was for a long time, a majority of Arabs living in the West Bank, there was tremendous Arab immigration into the area during the mandate as well so that most Palestinians are no more indigenous than many Jewish Israelis. Some 900,000 Jews were expelled from the Arab world as a result of this conflict too. The idea of "Justice" should be applied equally in the conflict.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by localbrew
What does anti-Semitic mean?

Literally, irrational hatered of the Semites.
The common defenition of anti semetism is irrational hatered of Jews, for the mere reason they were born.

An anti semite will denys Jews right to exist. Jews right of self determination and Jews right religious and cultural rights.
The anti semite will deny Jews right of self defence, Jews right to carry arms in self defence, later: Jews right of travel, Jews right to have property, limit Jews rights of occupations ect...

Hating a psycho killer or a thief, who happened to be a Jew, is not anti semetism. Hating a Jew even if he is law abiding loyal citizen, as if he is also a psycho killer or a thief, is anti semetism.

Anti semites are different only in their order of priorities of the rights they wish to rob first from Jews:
Religious anti semite want all Jews to convert by force and assimilate, murder those who refuse to convert, ect... then they will murder and persecute all former Jews who try to assimilate of the grounds they are not religious enough or dedicated enough to their forced upon religion.

A racist will deny Jews the right to live, what ever thier culture or religion or affiliation is. Most of all, the racist hates Jewish self defence.

The anti zionist Denial of national rights from Jews alone, while accepting the national rights of any other human group. Modern anti zionists combine today, Marxist philosophy on one hand, which claims that any form of human identity bounds to provoke violance. On the other hand, racism and religious anti semetism, where they consider Jews very existance and Jewish culture as the root for the violance in the ME and around the world. (including: Iran-Iraq war, Gulf wars, Chad-Libia war, Yeman civil war, where Egypt was involved, Lebanon's civil war, Sudan's ongoing civil war, the occuaptiong of west Sahara by Maroccons, the Mauritania's civil wars... ect... ).

- - - * - - - * - - - * - - -

Zionism is the last modern incarnation of an anciant idea, deeply rooted within Jewish culture and religion. The Zionist believe Jews have a national, cultural, religious, historical right to form a nation state in the land of Israel, where Jews govern Jews, Jews serve in an army and activly fight (and some times die), for the defence of their rights if needs be, and only fellow Jews are allowed to become citizens (with few exceptions: non-Jews who saved Jews during the holocaust, for example, are invited to live among us, so are non-Jewish spys who worked for us, ect...)

Israel is the only country in the world, the whole streets is filled with Jews: Drivers, children, politicians, the judges, the men on TV, the models on the advertizing posters, the police, the army... even the criminals are Jewish in Israel. Walk in almost every street in Israel, where ever you'll turn your head, you'll see Jews. No skin heads gangs, no KKK, no nation of Islam, no seirial killers. Try to imagion this one: You'll have to walk more then a hundred miles just to see a church, from where I live. It's five minutes walk to the close synagog, and there are whole streats of synagogs in every majore city. You can by Kosher food, cheap, everywhere. Non-kosher, is a problem... there are few, special stores and restorants which will sell you that, and it will cost you!.

Jewish language, Hebrew, is the official language, Jewish religion the the official religion in Israel, Jewish religious hollydays are also the national holydays. Sunday is a working day, but you'll get a fine and a police report for opening a store on Shabeth, or drive your car (with out a good reasoning) on Yom Kippur. You also can not open a pig farm, with out a special permit (and you'll not get one, either!). And that is only for an example. All of this, only because Israel is our Jewish country, and none other.

Zionism was designed to create a refuge for all Jews around the world from anti semetism, through excersing our national human rights, chiefly: Self defence. IDF is the prime target of most anti semetics and anti zionists around the world.

There is no known way for a Jew to escape Anti semetism. Even if a jew join the anti semetics himself. Too many Jews try to do just that, like Chomsky and many others. A Jew can only defend himself from anti semites. He does so, through Zionism, self defence. Israel is the only country in the world where Jews are allowed to carry arms and fight anti semetics.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Kapiti
Absolutely not. Religion should not dictate ones right to be able to live in the land. If the Palestinians are happy with Jews and Christians and Buddists living in their land but pledging allegiance to their government I am more than happy for this to occurr

If it initally takes a Jew free Palestine to get real peace however then all the Jews should get out of the region. This should not however be a long term objective.

quick question.

If you got to keep Jerusalem as your capital, no repatriation of Palestinian arabs to Israel, fair access to water, guaranteed peace for the forseeable future, would you give up ALL the land ?

Ethnic Cleansing. Ethnic Cleansing. Ethnic Cleansing.

For Jews for the Christians in Palestine reduced from 15% of the population to 2% since the PA took power.

As long as you're clear with that. Kill them all and there will be peace.

[cerulean]

[snip]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
For Jews for the Christians in Palestine reduced from 15% of the population to 2% since the PA took power.

I and others have posted elsewhere about Bethlehem and its vastly shrinking Christian Arab population. So it's not just ethnic cleansing, but religious cleansing that the Palestinian leadership is aggressively seeking.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Kapiti
The Israeli Jews earnt their “perceived” right to the West Bank and Palestine by invading it, taking control and injecting settlements.

Nonsense. The Jewish homeland of Israel is the birthright of all Jews and has been so for thousands of years. The "Palestinians" are squatters who rode in on their camels from the Arabian desert, and are now brutally occupying parts of the Jewish homeland.

You are right to say that there is no comparison between the rights of the Jews and the "Palestinians" when it comes to living in Israel. The Arabs are foreign invaders and modern day squatters in the Jewish homeland. The "Palestinians" have no actual rights to the land, other than those artificially bestowed on them by a hypocritical world blackmailed by Arab oil.

Newsguy
Firstly happily declare me anti-Israeli right wing but that is all.

No, your comments about a "Jew free" Israel show you to be anti-Semitic in a way that is very reminiscent of the original Nazis and Islaminazis who are apparently your role models.

It is sometimes difficult for people like you to face their own racism and acknowledge it, so I will do it for your you.

Australians killed in Bali were welcome visitors by the very substantial majority of the population and made no claim to taking control over any part of the island during their visit.

Contrast this with the fact that the Jewish settlers are unwelcome visitors attempting to take control over many parts of the WB and Gaza.

Australians are obviously NOT "welcome visitors" in the eyes of many members of Bali's Muslim population.

The Muslim terrorism that killed the Australians is identical in every way to the Muslim terrorism against Israelis and against Americans.

Your attempts to whitewash terrorism are laughable, and your attempts to justify the mass-murder of Jewish families is beneath contempt.

[Mediocrates]

I thought I was making a rather simple point. There are no settlers and the people who live in Yesha are for the most part middle class or lower middle class, typically pinched but not poor and by and large live in urban areas in and around the largest urban center in Israel. They are suburbs which is something I've been repeating for years it seems.

Most are secular, not black hats. Most are further west in Israel than Jerusalem itself. Most are built on nothing-land and not amidst Palestinians and Palestinian towns. It's the tiny minority who flock to Jewish Holy sites like Rachel's Tomb who seem to get all the headlines but even there their numbers are tiny - literally in the few hundreds. That's your 'occupation' it's laughable. One wonders what the Palestinians would do if 'occupied' by foreign workers come to rebuild their infrastructure? Kill them all?

It's never been about Palestinians at all. It's about where Jews are suffered to live.

[Kapiti]

Communication - The Jews expelled from the Arab world have a right perhaps to go back to those countries they were expelled from. Relatively speaking very few of them would have been expelled from the WB and G and Jordan so to suggest that the WB and G and Jordan should make amends for the errors of other countries is to suggest that England has an obligation to take back any Jews expelled from Germany during WW2 because the majority in both is Caucasion European. The fact is that most of the Arabs expelled from the Middle East were expelled from other countries. If jews have a problem with this explusion take it up with those countries but don't make the WB and G pay for these errors.

Demographics - Other than perhaps the last 50 years the Jews cannot win this one. Except for isolated pockets of settlements they have been the in the substantial minority for most of the last 2000 years. Indeed archeology I think would show that if Jericho is one of the oldest cotinuously inhabitated cities in the world of more than 10,000 years then Jews have been a majority for less than 2-3000 years at the most.

I would happily debate this one with you.

I understand your point better that many Israeli Arabs would prefer to be living under a Palestinian government. Going back to the green line would appear to be near on impossible. Working out how to reposition the borders to better reflect the preferences of the people within will be even harder. I agree however that establishing more common sense borders via land swaps would probably happen and makes sense.

I told you I would grow a thin skin and delete all the personal insults.

[minusthejihad]

Wow Kapitulation,

You're insults win you so much street cred!

[Mediocrates]

It's sad really because if you deconstruct what s/he types it doesn't vary that much from other people say as a plausible solution, even one or two I've penned myself. But the name calling and thinly veiled hatred, arrogance and snottiness get in the way. Is it ego? Is it anger? I don't know, don't care all that much either. Troll is as troll does.

[Kapiti]

Mediocrates - You have a very thin skin when it suits. It never seems to suit when others are getting personal.

quote
"No, your comments about a "Jew free" Israel show you to be anti-Semitic in a way that is very reminiscent of the original Nazis and Islaminazis who are apparently your role models." unquote

This is not personal ??

"I don't think a person who believes what you have posted above has the ability to learn anything new. You have spewed your share of hatred since arriving at this board, and I don't see any value in your continued presence here, even as an object lesson concerning the results of a poor education"

This is not personal ??

But what I actually like is that you in your last posting actually come closer to saying something constructive than I have seen in anything prior.

I personally take offence at being called anti-semetic and yet this is never edited out.

You never answered my quick question. I am not surprised though. Its a pity you don't have more guts.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Kapiti
Communication - The Jews expelled from the Arab world have a right perhaps to go back to those countries they were expelled from. Relatively speaking very few of them would have been expelled from the WB and G and Jordan so to suggest that the WB and G and Jordan should make amends for the errors of other countries is to suggest that England has an obligation to take back any Jews expelled from Germany during WW2 because the majority in both is Caucasion European. The fact is that most of the Arabs expelled from the Middle East were expelled from other countries. If jews have a problem with this explusion take it up with those countries but don't make the WB and G pay for these errors.

Demographics - Other than perhaps the last 50 years the Jews cannot win this one. Except for isolated pockets of settlements they have been the in the substantial minority for most of the last 2000 years. Indeed archeology I think would show that if Jericho is one of the oldest cotinuously inhabitated cities in the world of more than 10,000 years then Jews have been a majority for less than 2-3000 years at the most.

I would happily debate this one with you.


I told you I would grow a thin skin and delete all the personal insults.

It all depends on how you look at it. If most of the Arab world refuses to recognize the legitimacy of Israel, then why should we recognize some arbitrary distinction between one Arab nation and another, all of which were artificially imposed by the European powers anyway. It's an Arab-Israeli conflict, and we want full recognition of Israel by all Arab countries plus the recognition of what they did to Jews from the ME (perhaps some compensation if the Pals are going to get it) as part of this Road Map deal.

As far as your demographics go, I already said that the Arabs were a majority for a long time, but it's like saying that alllllllllll of Alaska and maybe Eastern Russia too belongs to the Eskimos because there happened to be a couple thousand wandering around out there for a few centuries. If you want to debate demographics with me, that's fine, I'm up for it, since it is the number one device that is used to deny Jews rights to their own country in the ME. However, I find this whole thing very borring, and ironic coming from a colonizer like yourself. But heh, that's we are here for, to bog ourselves down with stupid garbage.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Kapiti
Communication - The Jews expelled from the Arab world have a right perhaps to go back to those countries they were expelled from.

The generosity of this guy is really touching. I suggest we make him a Honorary Elder of Zion.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Kapiti
Mediocrates - You have a very thin skin when it suits. It never seems to suit when others are getting personal.

quote
"No, your comments about a "Jew free" Israel show you to be anti-Semitic in a way that is very reminiscent of the original Nazis and Islaminazis who are apparently your role models." unquote

This is not personal ??

"I don't think a person who believes what you have posted above has the ability to learn anything new. You have spewed your share of hatred since arriving at this board, and I don't see any value in your continued presence here, even as an object lesson concerning the results of a poor education"

This is not personal ??

But what I actually like is that you in your last posting actually come closer to saying something constructive than I have seen in anything prior.

I personally take offence at being called anti-semetic and yet this is never edited out.

You never answered my quick question. I am not surprised though. Its a pity you don't have more guts.

What question would that be?