Do the Jews have a "right" to the land of Israel?

[Alfred]

Do the Jews have a “right” to the land of Israel/Palestine?

An interesting topic that is debated every day in the Arab lands. Let’s look at history to see if we can find an illusive “right.”

Whatever your religious beliefs, most agree that written history is only around 6,000 years old. That is roughly 4,000 years BC to 2,000 AD. If you believe that the first Hebrew was Abraham, you would most likely agree that the first Hebrew/Jew/Israelite moved to Canaan in the 2,000 BC timeframe. Obviously you had prior inhabitants living in Canaan; we could call them “Native-Canaanites,” and as Abraham and his family were fairly small in number, and had emigrated from Iraq, you could not argue that Abraham could make much of a historical claim at that time.

Fast-forward a couple of generations and you have Joseph taking an all expenses paid vacation to Egypt; courtesy of his brothers. The other 11 brothers eventually relocate to Egypt, several hundred years pass, and you have a very large number of guest workers discontent in their working arrangement with the native Egyptians. A rabble-rouser named Moses returns from exile; organizes the Hebrews, and leaves Egypt for the “Promised Land.” Most people believe this occurred somewhere between 1600-1800 BC. For sake of argument let’s use 1,800 BC. We know that David was king around 1060 BC. So, from around 1,800 BC to King David you had a relatively small group of Hebrews gradually taking the land by conquest. In David’s time and certainly in Solomon’s time you could say that the land of Israel was definitely Hebrew.

The Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC and the people were deported. The Assyrians, moved outsiders in to settle northern Israel.s The southern kingdom of Judah survived until 70-130 AD, when the Diaspora was ushered in by the Romans.

The Romans and then the Christians (300 AD) ruled much of Israel from 130 AD to the mid 600’s AD when the Moslems rudely kicked the Christians out. Israel/Palestine was ruled by the Moslems until 1948, and has been ruled by the Jews from that time forth.

So, let’s put our thinking caps on. Native Canaanites probably 2200 years. Hebrews, roughly 1000-1300 years, Moslems 1400 years, Christians 300 years. I don’t give the Romans any claim, as they were foreign rulers, while the Christians and Moslems and Hebrews were made up of the existing people in their time. By the above quasi-analysis I would have to say that the Jews do NOT have a historical claim to the land of Canaan/Israel/Palestine. They did conquer the land, as did the Moslems and Christians for the most part. So, the only historical claim I can see is that of a conqueror.

How about a United Nations claim? After WW2 the Gentile nations of the world, feeling a bit guilty, “gave” the Jews a certain portion of the land of Israel/Palestine/Canaan. The native inhabitants were a bit put off to put it mildly, as their ancestors had conquered Palestine fair and square. They were especially ticked off that a bunch of Crusaders (bad) gave away their land to a bunch of Jews (worse). Although many of these Arabs would argue that they were “native Canaanites,” and they probably had a clearer title than did the European Jews who moved there in the 1920’s onward; things are still a bit fuzzy as far as “rights” go. As most countries would not accept the United Nations taking pieces of their land away, I would say that the Jews do NOT have a “right” to Palestine by virtue of any UN decree, especially as most Jews came from the outside to settle this piece of land. The UN is not God despite what many believe and does not have a right to distribute land that belongs to others.

Speaking of God. Is there a religious “right” of the Jews for the land of Israel/Palestine/Canaan? Ah yes; now we are talking. In fact, the God of Abraham did promise the land of Canaan to the Hebrews in approximately 2000 BC. Later, he also re-promised that land to Moses and Joshua. Now, as God is even greater than the UN, and as God created the Earth; I would say that he has a right to give the land to the Hebrews.

So…what do we have? The Jews have no historical right above that of others; they have no UN right, as the UN does not have the moral authority to take people’s land away from them; but they DO have a right given them by God. The God I believe in (and that’s all I can go on) said the land belongs to the Hebrews, not the Moslems, not the Romans, not the Greeks; and not even the Christians.

Let’s talk about the Jews in Israel today. What percentage of the Jews in Israel believe in God? What percentage could call themselves “Hebrew?” 50%? Let’s be generous. Let’s say that 50% are religious to a degree and believe all that hocus pocus about God having promised the land of Israel to Abraham. To these people I would say that you have a right to the land of Israel. To the other half I would say that you have a right by virtue of conquest, and that the conquerors can always be conquered.

If you accept that there is a God, and that Israel is yours by virtue of it having been given to you by God… then you probably realize that there will be no peace until a majority of the inhabitants of Israel believe in God and do what he asks. If the great Hebrew prophets were here today, they probably would agree with that statement.

If you do not accept that there is a God, then you are either in Israel by virtue of conquest or by virtue of some world body stealing the land from its inhabitants. You cannot complain too loudly when the previous owners try to take it back.

I hope that helps, and I am awaiting my Nobel Peace Prize.

[old-reb]

Hello Alfred,

Lets kick them jews out of Israel. There is no room on this earth for people who will not convert to Islam.

If they want to stay them make them submit to racist Sharia law or convert to Islam.

Praise Allah

[abu afak]

What do we really know -- Tangibly -- about ancient Israel?

I often see this argued.
That certain events like the Exodus cannot be proved (and I don't think it can be)
Here's a site I've found and used re this topic.
Perhaps it should be another string, but I think it fits well here,
and contains some veru good info.

".....Biblical Archaeology: Ancient Israel

Biblical archaeology then turns to the evidence for the early Israelites. The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele) is an upright stone slab measuring over seven feet tall that contains carved hieroglyphic text dating to approximately 1230 BC. The Egyptian stele describes the military victories of Pharaoh Merneptah and includes the earliest mention of "Israel" outside the Bible. Although the specific battles covered by the stele are not included in the Bible, the stele establishes extra-biblical evidence that the Israelites were already living as a people in ancient Canaan by 1230 BC.

In addition to the Stele, a large wall picture was discovered in the great Karnak Temple of Luxor (ancient Thebes), which shows battle scenes between the Egyptians and Israelites. These scenes have also been attributed to Pharaoh Merneptah and date to approximately 1209 BC.
The Karnak Temple also contains records of Pharaoh Shishak's military victories about 280 years later. Specifically, the Shishak Relief depicts Egypt's victory over King Rehoboam in about 925 BC, when Solomon's Temple in Judah was plundered. This is the exact event mentioned in 1 Kings 14 and 2 Chronicles 12.

Outside Egypt, we also discover a wealth of evidence for the early Israelites. The Moabite Stone (Mesha Stele) is a three-foot stone slab discovered near Dibon ,East of the Dead Sea, that describes the reign of Mesha, King of Moab, around 850 BC. According to Genesis 19, the Moabites were neighbors of the Israelites. The stele covers victories by King Omri and Ahab of Israel against Moab, and Mesha's later victories on behalf of Moab against King Ahab's descendants (2 Kings 3).

The Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser is a seven-foot, four-sided pillar of basalt that describes the victories of King Shalmaneser III of Assyria. Dated to about 841 BC, the Obelisk was discovered in the ancient palace of Nimrud and shows Israel's King Jehu kneeling before the Assyrian king in humble tribute (see 2 Kings 9-10).

The House of David and Solomon's Temple

Biblical archaeology covering ancient Israeli kings and culture received a huge lift in 1994 when archaeologists discovered a stone inscription at the ancient city of Dan, which refers to the "House of David." The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) is important because it's the first ancient reference to King David outside the Bible. Specifically, the stone is a victory pillar of a King in Damascus dated about 250 years after David's reign, which mentions a "king of Israel" (probably Joram, son of Ahab) and a king of the "House of David" (probably Ahaziah of Judah).

Another important find is the House of Yahweh Ostracon, which is a pottery shard dated to about 800 BC that contains a written receipt for a donation of silver shekels to Solomon's Temple. Written approximately 130 years after the completion of the Temple, this appears to be the earliest mention of Solomon's Temple outside the Bible."

http://biblical-archaeology.net

[Alfred]

God has given lands away to his people twice that I can think of. He gave Israel to the Hebrews and he gave America to the Gentile Christians (you have to be a Mormon to understand that one).

But there is always a catch. You must worship the God who gave you the land.

The Hebrews lost Israel in part because they turned away from their God.

The Christian Gentiles may lose America as they turn away from their God.

In the last days, the Jews will be allowed to return and try one more time.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Alfred,

Lets kick them jews out of Israel. There is no room on this earth for people who will not convert to Islam.

If they want to stay them make them submit to racist Sharia law or convert to Islam.

Praise Allah

"If you don't believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, we will kill you."

But I realize that you jest

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Alfred
"If you don't believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, we will kill you."

But I realize that you jest

And I realize that you jest too. How many wives can you have? Do you know people who have more than one? Wasn't pologamy allowed so as to quickly increase the population of the Mormans; it works for the Muslims?

I went to Salt Lake City in 1963. I could float in the salty water with my arms straight out. I tried to see how far I could dive down and came up sputtering from the salt. It healed my cold.

That was a rather lengthy article and interesting. You write good fiction.

old reb

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by old-reb
That was a rather lengthy article and interesting. You write good fiction.

old reb

You trying to pick a fight, Reb? Hang in there. Andak's lurking in the wings keeping up with things. He may come back to take you on.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by old-reb
And I realize that you jest too. How many wives can you have? Do you know people who have more than one? Wasn't pologamy allowed so as to quickly increase the population of the Mormans; it works for the Muslims?
old reb

You are absolutely right Old-Reb. It also worked for Abraham, Issac, Jacob.....not to mention King David, King Saul and King Solomon!!!

The problem with my 152 wives is that I never know which one to bring to the company Christmas party.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Alfred
You are absolutely right Old-Reb. It also worked for Abraham, Issac, Jacob.....not to mention King David, King Saul and King Solomon!!!

The problem with my 152 wives is that I never know which one to bring to the company Christmas party.

152, that is a lot.

Some 20 years ago I saw a program on tv about Mormans having so many wives; they showed a wealthy businessman with about 5 wives. One he married when she was a teenager and he was about 45. The Cameraman went to the police to try to get them to arrest the guy but no cigar. He said that it would just cause too much problems even tho it was against US law.
I don't really know much about mormans. They are ok as far as I know except this Pologamy thing and that doesn't even bother me. It is just a blimish on their religion by most standards.

old reb

[old-reb]

Originally posted by MichaelC
You trying to pick a fight, Reb? Hang in there. Andak's lurking in the wings keeping up with things. He may come back to take you on.

He is ok. He just wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the @ss.

old reb

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Alfred
God has given lands away to his people twice that I can think of. He gave Israel to the Hebrews and he gave America to the Gentile Christians (you have to be a Mormon to understand that one).

But there is always a catch. You must worship the God who gave you the land.

The Hebrews lost Israel in part because they turned away from their God.

The Christian Gentiles may lose America as they turn away from their God.

In the last days, the Jews will be allowed to return and try one more time.

It seems like I have to become a theologian to make posts here.

Jews have lived in the ME for thousands of years and it seems to me whether they are religious or not they have every right to be there. Land however has to be defended from enemies whose goal is to eliminate the State of Israel, as a matter of fact all land has to be protected from invaders.

The main difficulty in eliminating Arab/Muslim terrorism lays in the fact that external interference complicates that matter. The well-oiled PR machine of the Arabs and of course the fact that Europeans have their hands in the pocket of Arab States compounds the problem of Israel. Israel doesn’t have free reign when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians.

Quite frankly I find it bizarre that anyone would entertain the thought that there’s a sort of magnet that, will draw the Jews to Israel in the end times.

If Islam ever reaches the point where they will dominate the world I truly hope that the Sphinx becomes a beacon that will glow for the next million years or so.

[Communication]

Yesterday, a woman with a big sign that read, "His pain, your gain" came up to me at the cross walk and told me to read Isaiah. So I told her to read the Book of Thomas. She rolled her eyes. I rolled mine. And we parted. This morning, the guy at the breakfast truck was talking to some of us about the weather in "his country." I asked him what country he's from and he said, "Arabia." He was about 50+ years old.

Everyone believes what they want to believe.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Communication


Everyone believes what they want to believe.

Some people say believe what I believe or die or submit to being an inferior being.

old reb

[Alfred]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It seems like I have to become a theologian to make posts here.

Yes you do....and for only $343.95 (have your credit card ready), you can become an ordained Preacher in the Church of Larry or Ted. Then you can make your own rules and set your own morals, and live free of all judgement.

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


Jews have lived in the ME for thousands of years and it seems to me whether they are religious or not they have every right to be there.

You make an excellent point. In fact, the Jews have done a hundred times better with the land than any other people that we know of. But my point is that Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them, not because they have conquered it. If that were the case, the the Arabs and certainly the Native-Canaanites have a stronger claim....at least they would once they took it back. If your only right is by conquest then it is open season for the past inhabitants. Alternatively, if Israel is yours only because of a benevolent UN, then the UN could change its mind. I am saying that the Jews have a stronger claim to the land of Israel than through UN benevolence or conquest.

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

Quite frankly I find it bizarre that anyone would entertain the thought that there’s a sort of magnet that, will draw the Jews to Israel in the end times.

It is not so bizzare really. Just 60 years ago there was a very good reason for Jews to leave Europe. Had there been a Jewish Israel at that time, do you not believe that they would have fled to Israel? What if that happened again? Some of you see signs of anti-jewish activity on the rise in Europe. What if something similar also occured here in the States?

I don't think that Israel will draw Jews to it like a magnet. I think that things will get so bad that the Jews will be kicked out of many countries and will flee to Israel. I am not saying I like it, I am just saying it is in the scriptures that this will happen. Along with that you will find religious persecution against everyone. The Church of Larry will be the only acceptable religion, as all others will be homo-phobic, rascist, sexist, anti-everything goes, behind the times, and unacceptable to run for office, sit as a judge, or be in business. You are starting to see that "test"given today.

Whether one believes it or not. You do have history as a guide to how it could happen. Spain 1492, Europe 1940's, etc.

[jewbyc]

The first aliyah occured in Israel between the years 1882 and 1903 here is how Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described Israel as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

Jewish hard work made Israel a triving land once more.