For those who still dream of Greater Israel

**Mediocrates** · 09-05-2003, 06:51 AM

Expanding the settlements now is a good move. That way if they have to 'remove' them it's only on paper. Think about it, 102 apartments home to perhaps 350 Jews would present such a problem to the peaceful people of Palistan. Don't know about you but in my experience that is somewhere between 1 and 4 mid sized buildings. Wow.

Well if it were me I'd simply claim that it was the 12th most holy site of Judaism or something like that. In fact that's exactly what the Sharon govt should do. They should start calling each of the 'settlements' Holy Sites that can't be disturbed or removed. Sorry duudes.

danholo · 09-05-2003, 06:58 AM

Hehe...

Well, medio, I think it's the principle for the Palestinians, not the size. The house could be a cabana beach house but for the Palestinians zero Jews means zero Jews.

**Mil** · 09-05-2003, 07:13 AM

Posted by Communication:

One more thing, since you guys were talking about Sadat:

He wasn't so great, not the "Last Pharoah" or whatever he was referred to in the West. In 1972, at a feast in honor of Muhammed's birthday, he stated "They shall return and be as the Koran said of them, "condemned to humiliation and misery." We shall send them back to their former state. Then the Yom Kippur happened. He was no prince. When he finally made peace with Israel he said quite clearly in his speech to the Knesset that ultimate peace depended on Israel recognizing a Palestinian right of return, knowing fully well that over time, the demographic shift would lead to Islamic rule there too too. And at the same time, the hypocrite never acknowledged all the Jewish refugees from Egypt.

Sadat was the greatest ruler modern Egypt could have hoped for. I don't care about his ideological convictions but as a politician he is worth something.

Communication · 09-05-2003, 07:50 AM

He was just ok. It says more about the Israeli people, who cheered him for coming to Israel, than Sadat for making the visit. Sadat got back all of the Siani along with the hotels that Israel built there plus the second largest aid package ever awarded by the United States. All the Israeli people got in return was peace.

Communication · 09-05-2003, 07:56 AM

I just read this statement:

"British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw: EU needs to outlaw Hamas, I think there is broad consensus to do so."

We need to encourage this.

**Mil** · 09-05-2003, 07:59 AM

Posted by Communication:

He was just ok. It says more about the Israeli people, who cheered him for coming to Israel, than Sadat for making the visit. Sadat got back all of the Siani along with the hotels that Israel built there plus the second largest aid package ever awarded by the United States. All the Israeli people got in return was peace.

No, Sadat was one of the Greatest political figurest of the second part of the twentieth century. The way he had manipulated US, the West, USSR, Israel, and finally his friends the Arabs is on par with that of Bismark, Kissinger, Adenaour.

Communication · 09-05-2003, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by Mil

No, Sadat was one of the Greatest political figurest of the second part of the twentieth century. The way he had manipulated US, the West, USSR, Israel, and finally his friends the Arabs is on par with that of Bismark, Kissinger, Adenaour. [/B]

he also got shot for it. and it was an inside job.

sharonbn · 09-05-2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Communication
he also got shot for it. and it was an inside job.

I agree with Mil on the assessment of Anuar Sadat. He is one of the most coragous and visionary leaders in the modern era.

Sadat paid a personal price for his vision and courage. Rabin paid the same price, also from the hands of extremists anti-peace terrorists.

You have to remember that Sadat, not Israel, initiated the peace process by coming to Israel and giving a speech in the Knesset. He announced his initiative in a speech in the Egyptian parliament that shocked the Arab world and the entire world indeed. He was the first Arab leader to break the strategy of no recognition of Israel set forth in Khartom in 1968.

He went against the entire Arab world. Egypt paid a high price for that: from the position of the most prominent and influencial Arab state, it sank to almost total isolation for a period of 4 years, until his assasination.

I saw a documentary about that period: Sadat saught support from Syria and went on a visit to Damascus, three days before he was scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem. The Syrian FM said in the documentary that some of Assad's ministers told him they should arrest Sadat and prevent him from going to Jerusalem. Assad refused because he considered Sadat his visitor and its against Arab hospitality tradition to arrest or harm your visitor. But he refused to publicly endorse Sadat's initiative.

The documentary went on to describe the worries of the Egyptian security authorities about the visit to Jerusalem. They were convinced that Sadat put his life in the hands of their bitter enemy - what if Israel decided to arrest or assasinate Sadat? Head of Egyptian security authorities tried to persuade his president to hold the meeting on a neutral place, but Sadat refused to listen to him.

So you can see that Sadat was actually all alone in his quest - no support from Arab neighbors, no support from home. I'd say it takes a whole lot of conviction and courage to go againt the advice of everyone surrounding you.

He wasn't "just OK", he was a visionary. Something the ME and the world in general lack.

frizzer1 · 09-05-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
I agree with Mil on the assessment of Anuar Sadat. He is one of the most coragous and visionary leaders in the modern era.

Sadat paid a personal price for his vision and courage. Rabin paid the same price, also from the hands of extremists anti-peace terrorists.

You have to remember that Sadat, not Israel, initiated the peace process by coming to Israel and giving a speech in the Knesset. He announced his initiative in a speech in the Egyptian parliament that shocked the Arab world and the entire world indeed. He was the first Arab leader to break the strategy of no recognition of Israel set forth in Khartom in 1968.

He went against the entire Arab world. Egypt paid a high price for that: from the position of the most prominent and influencial Arab state, it sank to almost total isolation for a period of 4 years, until his assasination.

I saw a documentary about that period: Sadat saught support from Syria and went on a visit to Damascus, three days before he was scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem. The Syrian FM said in the documentary that some of Assad's ministers told him they should arrest Sadat and prevent him from going to Jerusalem. Assad refused because he considered Sadat his visitor and its against Arab hospitality tradition to arrest or harm your visitor. But he refused to publicly endorse Sadat's initiative.

The documentary went on to describe the worries of the Egyptian security authorities about the visit to Jerusalem. They were convinced that Sadat put his life in the hands of their bitter enemy - what if Israel decided to arrest or assasinate Sadat? Head of Egyptian security authorities tried to persuade his president to hold the meeting on a neutral place, but Sadat refused to listen to him.

So you can see that Sadat was actually all alone in his quest - no support from Arab neighbors, no support from home. I'd say it takes a whole lot of conviction and courage to go againt the advice of everyone surrounding you.

He wasn't "just OK", he was a visionary. Something the ME and the world in general lack.

Communication, I have to disagree with you also about Sadat.It doesn't matter what he did prior to his visit to Israel, and it doesn't even matter what he said in his speech to the knesset..what matters is the he was the first to publicly break the no recognition policy of the arabs as Sharon has said.
No one should minimise the risk he took..He knew he would be a target and he did ultimately die because of it.
I remember those days.We loved sadat..all of us..I remember some of his interviews...a reporter would ask him if Israel would be difficult to deal with in a certain situation...he would puff on his pipe..give the interviewer a smile..and say "begin will be begin and Sadat will be sadat.and we will work it out,,don't worry"
He should be considered one of the great men of history.

Communication · 09-05-2003, 09:01 AM

Oh fine! At least give yourselves some credit for welcoming him into Israel and giving back all the land acquired in exchange for peace.

frizzer1 · 09-05-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Hehe...

Well, medio, I think it's the principle for the Palestinians, not the size. The house could be a cabana beach house but for the Palestinians zero Jews means zero Jews.

Of course it's the principle.
We have Abbas fighting for his political life (and maybe more) against Arafat ,needing all the support he can get.Israel fighting for world wide support and finally seeming to be turning a page.
And supporters ,including people like us, defending Israel's performance during the roadmap and rightly blaming the pals for it's failure,,,,and then they do THIS ?
What stupidity? Don't they know anything about PR?
They just gave the finger to the US and the rest of the world....and for what? A few crummy apartments?
Good grief...use some common sense, for heaven's sake

danholo · 09-05-2003, 09:17 AM

Well. We must admit that the Israeli PR campaign is one of the worst on today's political scene. And somehow they don't even realize it.

danholo · 09-05-2003, 09:20 AM

At least we're giving some credit for an Arab, which is very rare on this board. The other "good guy" would be the late King Hussein I think.

**Mil** · 09-05-2003, 10:02 AM

Posted by Sharonb:

I agree with Mil on the assessment of Anuar Sadat. He is one of the most coragous and visionary leaders in the modern era.

Sadat paid a personal price for his vision and courage. Rabin paid the same price, also from the hands of extremists anti-peace terrorists.

You have to remember that Sadat, not Israel, initiated the peace process by coming to Israel and giving a speech in the Knesset. He announced his initiative in a speech in the Egyptian parliament that shocked the Arab world and the entire world indeed. He was the first Arab leader to break the strategy of no recognition of Israel set forth in Khartom in 1968.

He went against the entire Arab world. Egypt paid a high price for that: from the position of the most prominent and influencial Arab state, it sank to almost total isolation for a period of 4 years, until his assasination.

I saw a documentary about that period: Sadat saught support from Syria and went on a visit to Damascus, three days before he was scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem. The Syrian FM said in the documentary that some of Assad's ministers told him they should arrest Sadat and prevent him from going to Jerusalem. Assad refused because he considered Sadat his visitor and its against Arab hospitality tradition to arrest or harm your visitor. But he refused to publicly endorse Sadat's initiative.

The documentary went on to describe the worries of the Egyptian security authorities about the visit to Jerusalem. They were convinced that Sadat put his life in the hands of their bitter enemy - what if Israel decided to arrest or assasinate Sadat? Head of Egyptian security authorities tried to persuade his president to hold the meeting on a neutral place, but Sadat refused to listen to him.

So you can see that Sadat was actually all alone in his quest - no support from Arab neighbors, no support from home. I'd say it takes a whole lot of conviction and courage to go againt the advice of everyone surrounding you.

He wasn't "just OK", he was a visionary. Something the ME and the world in general lack.

Actually I wouldn't be so sentimental. The biggest thing that Saddat did was to put Egypt up front first, like a real leader should do, and all the Arab causes second. During the time of Nasser Egypt was at the front of Arab nationalism "advertising" for Arab and anti-Western/anti-colonial/anti-Israeli causes. The problem was that if Egypt kept up doing whatever it was doing nothing would be accomplished but failure. Engaging Israel militarily, as in 1967 has only brought diseaster, engaging into Arab politics brought Yemen and yet another diseater, Arab Republic fell apart, putting pressure on Iraq and Syria and other nationalistic "secular" regimes went to nothing, the economy was collapsing, population was growing and radicalizing, state expenditures were increasing at astronomical rates... Especially the Israeli issue - Egypt could not physically fight Israel for nationalistic Arab causes, at the expense of other Arabs, hence it would always loose and loose big.

The only good or may be a bad thing for that matter was the Soviet Union. However, while the Soviets could help with the weapons and political support economically they were not much help. Plus the Soviets were very interested in keeping all the conflicts going in the ME hence it gave them more political standing in the region and in the context of the Cold War and the politics of oil it was only to their benefit. At the time Syria, Iraq and Libya were already Soviet clients and all had problems with Egypt and specifically Nasser. The only other influential country that was not associated with the Soviets was Saudi Arabia but then nobody wanted to deal much with those fanatics anyways or depend on its oil-money donations. Plus Saudi Arabia would only benefit from Egypt failures since given its oil and non-secular regimes they only looked in laughter at Egypt killing itself. Anyways as one of the authors put it "Nasser's rule started with British occupation and ended with Soviet occupation." It all had to stop.

Sadat understood that playing Arab intrigues and politics for whatever the cause, including the all favorite Palestinians, would destroy Egypt at everyone elses expense and neither the West, nor the Soviets, nor the fellow Arabs would be too sympathetic if that took place. Thus the only approach left was to ask for an alliance with US. However, to be in the alliance with the US would require making peace with Israel and that's exactly what Sadat did - even if it meant the condomnation from the entire Arab world and an eventual price-tag on his head. Not that Sadat cared much for Israel or for the Palestinians for that matter but he did care about Egypt and that makes him a great leader.