Home | We ever told those stupid Europeans to have their own laws? And if they really feel they need something stupid like that, who told them to follow those idiot rules?
They should just forget the paperwork and listen to great men like Bush and Sharon. Follow the leaders! Befehl ist befehl!
answer from a stupid European
I don´t agree with you, maybe the father of Bush was a good president, but with a great mistake he only liberated Kuwait and didn´t defeat Saddam Hussein.
Sharon isn't a political, is only a general who wants win another war against the arabs to demonstrate that good militar he is. It´s so easy get the blame to the Palestinian people, to the muslin world, to Europe...... but Israel politics with the palestinian people are just? Are now the palestinians the same rights that the Israeli people?....
Yes, a lot of fanatic terrorist wants to kill Israel and his citizents, but I don´t believe that millions of palestinians are terrorist. A lot of Palestinians want to work and live peacefully like the mayority of the Israelis, but can´t because for to be palestinians are automatically suspects of terrorists....
A fanatic jew killed Isaac Rabin, Rabin was really a great general, a great political and a great man. Fanatics are in all the world, in Spain, in Europe, in China, in Usa and also in Israel...
Only the good people can stop the fanatic people. The problem is that the fanatic people command today in Israel and Palestina
There is an understanding among nations that leaders should not be targeted personally. Bush Sr.'s mistake was that he heeded that rule, and was satisfied to push the invader out of Kuwait. But people are coming to realize that there are a few leaders who are so evil -- such as Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat -- that they must be removed from the scene.Originally posted by Elena
I don´t agree with you, maybe the father of Bush was a good president, but with a great mistake he only liberated Kuwait and didn´t defeat Saddam Hussein.
Sharon showed great restraint... until Palestinian terrorists went to such extremes as to massacre mostly elderly civilians attending a Passover Seder. Really, it was the citizens of Israel who demanded that Sharon take forceful action. The citizens of any country would demand no less after such a string of attacks.Sharon isn't a political, is only a general who wants win another war against the arabs to demonstrate that good militar he is. It´s so easy get the blame to the Palestinian people, to the muslin world, to Europe...... but Israel politics with the palestinian people are just? Are now the palestinians the same rights that the Israeli people?....
Yes, Elena, despite much propaganda to the contrary Israel has been just to the Palestinians, overall. Israel occupied the territories captured from invading Arab armies -- an internationally recognized right. Israel entered a peace process, gave the Palestinians self-rule in all of their cities, and offered them a settlement that included 96% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, East Jerusalem as their capital. And certainly Israel was willing to negotiate compensation for actual refugees.
What was the "just" Palestinian response? Instead of making a counter-offer, they started a war. They have violated everything they agreed to. They purposely attack innocent civilians. Their entire society, under the PA, was structured to encourage, recruit, and support terrorists. The PA pretended to be engaged in the "peace process," but instead used its schools, mosques, and media to promote terrorism.
Israel allowed the PA to build a 30,000-man armed security force. These people were supposed to fight Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and PFLP. Instead, they fought Israeli civilians.
Nobody says millions of Palestinians are terrorists. However, polls show that up to 85% of Palestinians support suicide attacks on Israeli civilians. This is Arafat's great (and only) accomplishment.Yes, a lot of fanatic terrorist wants to kill Israel and his citizents, but I don´t believe that millions of palestinians are terrorist. A lot of Palestinians want to work and live peacefully like the mayority of the Israelis, but can´t because for to be palestinians are automatically suspects of terrorists....
Yes, alot of Palestinians want to live in peace. Unfortunately, Hamas brands such people as traitors and regularly kills a few to set an example. Note that since the Israeli offensive the Palestinians have killed eight people held in jail as suspected collaborators. (The only people they put in jail and keep there are suspected collaborators, not terrorists.)
The reason Palestinians can't work and live peacefully is not because Israel unfairly suspects them all of being terrorists, but because the few terrorists force Israel (like any rational society) to take extraordinary measures to protect its citizens.
Or do you think Israel is obligated to let thousands of Palestinians into Israel each day and just absorb the terrorist massacres at cafes, bus stops, and synagogues?
You are so concerned about the poor suffering Palestinians. Where is your concern about the Israelis who are just trying to go about their lives and end up being blown to pieces by little Osama bin Ladens?
The real untold story here are the thousands of Israelis who survive these attacks and spend the rest of their lives disabled.
Unfortunately, Rabin believed Arafat and the PA. This was a big mistake -- just like Bush Sr. letting Saddam Hussein stay in power.A fanatic jew killed Isaac Rabin, Rabin was really a great general, a great political and a great man. Fanatics are in all the world, in Spain, in Europe, in China, in Usa and also in Israel...
Only the good people can stop the fanatic people. The problem is that the fanatic people command today in Israel and Palestina
It's time that the rest of the Western world wake up. Do you want Basque separatists blowing up people in Madrid every week? If you do, support the Palestinians in their "just" cause!
- The Basque country not is the same situation, fortunately the 90% of the people that live in the Basque country condemns all the acts of terrorism. ( Democratic Basque nacionalist and non nacionalist).
- There isn´t any UN resolution supporting an independent Basque State.
- There isn´t any UN resolution condemnating the Kingdown of Spain (It sound odds but Spain is a Kingdown) in this cuestion.
- If someone says that the spanish army must fights against terrorism of ETA is called fascist by the mayority of the political statements. (The people of Spain during a lot of years had fear of the spanish army because the army supported 40 years of dictadure of Franco). We prefer that the police fights against terrorism.
I am curious to know what you are thinking when you see photos of Jewish children and other civilians blown up by these Palestinian murderers? What are you thinking when you see people sitting at a hotel celebrating a family holiday that are then bombed and murdered in cold blood? What do you think when you see pictures of the Israelis waiting at a bus stop to go to work or to go to school and they are laying dead in the street a moment later?Originally posted by Elena
Sharon isn't a political, is only a general who wants win another war against the arabs to demonstrate that good militar he is. It´s so easy get the blame to the Palestinian people, to the muslin world, to Europe...... but Israel politics with the palestinian people are just? Are now the palestinians the same rights that the Israeli people?....
Ariel Sharon has tried many times to withdraw Israeli troops and to negotiate for a political solution, even after giving the Palestinian control over 85% of the disputed land, but the Palestinians have chosen to use terrorism to extreminate the people of Israel.
I don't know why you have some illusion like this is Ariel Sharon proving something unnecessary. Maybe this is the result of the biased European media that thinks that Israelis do not have the right to defend themselves and do not have the right to survive.
Maybe it is very easy for you to live a simplistic world where the poor Palestinians feel that they only have 85% of the West Bank and Gaza, and really they want 100% of that and 100% of Israel, too, and so you have a romantic fantasy that these people are justified to slaughter innocent Israelis.
* * *
As for the Basques that you say is a completely different matter, you are mistaken. If they would bomb the Spaniards every day killing dozens, you would feel differently.
Secondly, the ONLY reason that there is no UN resolution in their favor is that they do not control the world's oil supply.
I am also curious to know how you in Spain can continue to occupy and oppress a minority population that wants freedom from Spain and independence. At least Israel has engaged in political negotiations for a settlement with the Palestinian, and has, since 1993, given 85% of the disputed land to the Palestinians to govern themselves independently.
What has Spain done in this regard?
the victims have all my respect and solidarity
I and all the people that a know condemn the deaths of innocents israelis. It´s very hard to see innocent familys, childrens and young people like me murdered only because are jews and live in Israel. The victims and their familys have all my respect and solidarity. A killer is a Killer in Spain and in Israel and the life is a fundamental right.I am curious to know what you are thinking when you see photos of Jewish children and other civilians blown up by these Palestinian murderers? What are you thinking when you see people sitting at a hotel celebrating a family holiday that are then bombed and murdered in cold blood? What do you think when you see pictures of the Israelis waiting at a bus stop to go to work or to go to school and they are laying dead in the street a moment later?
I can´t believe that. Sharon did all the possible to the goverment of Ehud Barak fail in all their desperate intends to sign a peace with Arafat. Arafat is also quilty because he betray this intend of peace that begins in 1993 (1967- 1993) 26 years of occupation without any iniciative of peace.Ariel Sharon has tried many times to withdraw Israeli troops and to negotiate for a political solution
Yes it´s true the arabs hated Israel and wanted destroy it, but with many years of ocupation is normal that the palestinians are desperate and annoyed. They palestinians want a solution too, but I agree with you Arafat isn´t a good leader of the palestinian people and he hasn´t any credibility now.
The suicide killers acts terrorist are unnaceptable and Israel has the right of defend its citizens, has the right of arrests every terrorists and suicide killers. But Israel mustn´t bombard hospitals and shoot ambulances, Israel musn´t convert the palestinians citys in guettos where the journalist, the red cross and humanitarian organizations can´t enter and the Israeli army musn´t shoot every person that stay in the street without to know if is a civilian or a terrorist.
I think that Israel is a great democratic state with marvellous people, so never must use the same tactics that a totalitarian state. This is the problem and for this Sharon is so criticize in Europe. The oil power of the arabs don´t buy the europeans brains, (I haven´t a car) this isn´t a serious line of reasoning.
It´s only my opinion
Repeat Euskadi not is the same
Today in my country a lot of Basque people that fighted against the Fascist dictadure of Franco are killed by other fascist dictadure of the killers of ETA (They murder all people that think different, Basque or Spanish).
A little explanation about ETA and Euskadi.
The problem of Euskadi isn´t a war between the Basque population against Spain. The real problem is inside the Basque society, about the 50% of the population want to have the future possibility of a process of autodetermination and probably creation of a new state Basque, by the other hand there is about other 50 % of the population that believe that is possible to have a Basque identity inside a democratic Spain.
Now the Basque country have the most deveploped autonomy estatute of Europe, they have a parliament, they make their own laws, they have a Basque police, they control their educational, sanitarian, culture, segurity politics etc... The parliament of Spain and the Parliament of Euskadi work together againts the terrorism.(They have diferent politicals points of view, but they fight against the terrorism together)
Only an 8% of the population in the Basque country support the acts of terrorism, and this support is less year by year, the rest of the population (Democratic Basque nacionalist and Democratic basque non-nacionalist) about a 90 % rejects clearly the terrorist. You can see the manifestations of repulse of the population after all act terrorist and the clear condemn of the Basque president (A president nacionalist that wants the autodetermination of the Basque country with democratic resolutions without violence). They say (the democratic Basque nacionalist in Euskadi) that ETA is out of the reality because ETA wants create an independent republic socialist marxist with a proletarian dictadure, when now Russia abandonned the comunist.
ETA wants the independence of the Basque country (with the 8% of the votes), the independence of Navarra (another autonomy of spain with less of the 8% of the votes) and part of the south of France ( with less that 10% of votes) and create a great Basque State (without the opinion of their inhabitants and with the force of the guns).
Nobody in Spain Thinks that the Spanish army must fight against ETA terrorism. If someone say this is called automatically fascist by the mayority of the political statement. This is because we think that is the police that must fight against the terrorism not the army. In Spain the Judicial system guarantee all the rights of the arrested people until the last extreme, and only if their culpability is demontrated is condemned.(The system isn´t perfect but the espirit of the law is that is poor an inocent in prison that a guilty free).
In Spain some socialist minister was in Prison because they do an unclean fight against terrorism with illegal selective murder of terrorist. (In Spain the death penalty is erradicated incluse in state of war).
Eta killed until now about 1000 persons
Yes, It´s difficult to erradicate the terrorism, in Spain, in North Ireland and in Israel, but in my country nobody can say that the rights of the Basque country aren´t respect.
A thruth democracy means that itself can judge its owns mistakes an respect the rights of all the citizents that live in it.
Yes, this is why I disagree that Sharon is just acting like a General looking for a war. He is not. He needs to react to those terrorist events and in doing so, he is not the one at fault for causing the problems. This is the Palestinians' fault and now they are paying the price of years and years of murdering innocent Israelis.Originally posted by Elena
I and all the people that a know condemn the deaths of innocents israelis. It´s very hard to see innocent familys, childrens and young people like me murdered only because are jews and live in Israel.
No, Sharon did not like all the proivisions of the Oslo accord and was not willing to go as far as Barak in giving away the Jewish homeland to the Palestinians, but Sharon has aaid repeatedly that he was willing to make "painful compromises." Those were his words, and on that basis, the people of Israel elected him to make peace.I can´t believe that. Sharon did all the possible to the goverment of Ehud Barak fail in all their desperate intends to sign a peace with Arafat.
If you do some more research, you will foind that in addition to agreeing to the Tenet plan and the Mitchell plan, Sharon withdrew Israeli tanks from Palestinian cities, including hebron, Nablus, Kalquilia, etc, just a in the last year. His condition was that every city he pulled tanks out of, must not send suicide bombers into Israel. So, what happened? The Palestinians immediately built missile factories, held illegal weapons and sent suicide bombers from every town Sharon pulled the tanks out of.
At the time, Sharon also lifted travel restrictions and eliminated military checkpoints. Again, the Palestinians used every such point to send suicide bombers into Israel.
Here is a small example, from just a few months ago:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1721017.stm
But I think that you will find that Sharon made many compromises for peace and removed Israeli tanks from Palestinians cities and lifted travel restrictions several times, only to be hit by the Palestinians' war on Israel.
And finally, enough is enough and I can't really blame Sharon at all.
Again, this is European media bias against Israel. They hide that palestinians have been using ambulances to transport weapons and suicide bombers into Israel. They hide that the Palestinian hospitals were being used to hide terrorists. Israel would be crazy NOT to pursue the terrorists and other suicide bombers wherever they hide for propaganda reasons.Israel has the right of defend its citizens, has the right of arrests every terrorists and suicide killers. But Israel mustn´t bombard hospitals and shoot ambulances
As an example, please look at this:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...3?threadid=358
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/0...ews.46392.html
This is very unfortunate on a number of levels.
Norway also doesn't have the excuse of being reliant on Arab oil, given its North Sea reserves.
Apparently thre's a large arab community in Norway... ((((weird is all I can say to that)))).
Oslo is in Norway? What goes on there anyhow that such a treaty was hammered out there.... which big wigs live there and what exactly are their global asscets?
It would be best to get an informed opinion on the subject, but my guess is that the following are at least somewhat related to the choice of Oslo for the accords.
The Norwegian Parliament (the Storting) in Oslo decides who gets the Nobel Peace Prize. This is in contract to the other Nobel Prizes, which are determined in Stockholm.
Scandinavian countries have a reputation (less and less deserved all the time perhaps) for being socially progressive.
Gro Harlem Bruntland was prime minister of Norway around this time and had strong UN links.
One thing that can be said though is that I'm sure whoever made this decision about boycotting would not admit to being anti-Israel. They would just say they were supporting the Israeli left-wing. Similarly, by furthering the negotiations that led to the Oslo Accords, Norwegians could argue they were just furthering the will of the Israeli people (through Rabin and Barak). Not that this helps anyone. But it's one reason there has to be a clear Israeli position stated worldwide and a clear statement why capitulation is dangerous.
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