takeo's roadmap for peace (summary)

[takeo]

1) a new center-leftwing Israeli government gets elected (a necessary condition for peace) labour-meretz preferably.
2) Israel, together with its allies the US, the EU, Russia and the UN starts to regularly discuss the peace-proces, to assure international backing, assistance and more importantly financial contributions to peace.
3) Israel invites Arafat and his associates to Jerusalem for high-level talks. the message is very clear and the further steps are laid out. Arafat must agree.
4) step one: arafat must start dismantling terrorist organisations immidiately and with all means available, he will get all assistance from Israel and the international community doing so. Dismantling means imprisonment of the entire military wing of hamas, jihad, al-aqsa, etc. as well as severe restrictions and dismantling of the civil wing of those organisations. This action must be torough and well organised, every single local cell of the organisations must be outrooted, any resistance must be dealt with accordingly and 1000's of people will be put behind bars. this must be accompanied by heavy propaganda on pâlestinian television against the organisations who jeopardise peace. the israeli army withdraws from all the territories held by the pa.
5) in the meanwhile, Israel starts to remove settlements, forcefully if necessary, any resistance of the armed settlers must be dealt with accordingly. the pace of the removal will depend upon the pace of the palestinian fight against terror and its successes. it becomes clear to the palestinians that, if they really fight terror, a palestinian state will become reality. the resettlement of the settlers will be paid for by the international community.
6) this step indicates that most settlements have been removed and the terror has been stopped, hamas, jihad and al-aqsa are as good as outrooted and chased upon, no more suicide-attacks inside Israel appear. now the final solution for the area will be discussed upon on an international conference with the un, us, Europe, Russia, the Arab neighbouring countries, etc.
7) Israel withdraws totally from the occupied territories and is replaced by an international force, guarding the borders and assuring the agreements will be executed. some parts of the wb and eastern jerusalem will be annexed to israel while some parts of israel will cease to be a part of israel and get under the autority of the pa and the protection of foreign troops. the agreements include palestinians continuing to fight terror, a large non-military border zone as well as giving free acces to israeli tourists to do holy Jewish monuments.
8) a few 100's of 1000's of palestinian refugees will return to israel from all over the world, if they don't have a terrorist past, papers proving their claim and swear allegiance to the laws of Israel. they will be a very necessary cheap labour because peace made the israeli economy expanding once again. their houses and constructions will be lagely paid for by the international community.
9) the pa and irael sign a non-aggression treaty and treaty of mutual aid in the struggle against crime and terrorism. Also economic treaties and freetrade agreements get signed.
10) israel reconsiders as well with syria and lebanon, promising them to give back the holan-heights and draw a new border according to the 1948 border. Syria in turn has to close all terrorist offices, turn over the suspects, sign a non-aggression treaty and recognise israel.
11) the palestinian state becomes independant, and both neighbours immidiately recognise eachother.

[ibrodsky]

Takeo, you make Neville Chamberlain look like a realist.

Isn't there a Dhimmitude for Dummies board you can go play on?

[Da Chuckstar]

So let me get this straight, every Jewish person living in the areas outside Israel must go back to Israel while 100's of 1000's of Arabs are to be allowed citizenship into Israel for free?

I have to tell you, you picked the wrong forum to say something as stupid as this.

I have a better idea. How about Israel takes Arafat and puts him in a prison cell (and throws away the key), then a moderate from the PA that doesn't do Arafat's bidding is appointed as Prime Minister. Then this new person can crack down on Hamas, Islamic Jihad et al and put a stop to Jew-hatred being preached in every school, mosque etc in the area.

If the new government is successful in achieving these goals, then Israel can hand over the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip to their control, and the nation of Palestine can be born.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by takeo
...
4) step one: arafat must start dismantling terrorist organisations immidiately and with all means available, he will get all assistance from Israel and the international community doing so.

That is precisely why Israel allowed him to return from Tunisia ten years ago and armed his "security forces" with tens of thousands of AK47s (was it 40,000 AFAIR?). So, how many chances does the HairyFrog have? How many more Jewish and Arab children have to die to satisfy his and your sociopathic ambitions?

7) Israel withdraws totally from the occupied territories and is replaced by an international force, guarding the borders

Why do you require the winner in the aggresive war to act as a loser? Why single out Israel? Here, let me redraw map of Europe...

As for the UN peacekeepers, did they prevent previous wars as they were supposed to? Are they preventing - right now as we speak - the Hizballah attacks on Israel from Lebanese territory? Heard any UN resolutions about terror waged on Israel? There were none. Sadly, we learned the hard way not to trust our security to anybody.

8) a few 100's of 1000's of palestinian refugees will return to israel from all over the world

How many? And their descendents too? How many generations?
What about the Jewish refugees from the Arab lands?

10) israel reconsiders as well with syria and lebanon, promising them to give back the holan-heights and draw a new border according to the 1948 border.

Why?! Do you know the history of Golans? It was part of Palestine mandate, but then thanks to an error of stupid (?) French topograph, a faulty map has been drawn. Of course, the Arabs liked it and decided to keep it. BTW, what happened in 1948?

Syria in turn has to close all terrorist offices

Not in turn, this should have been done long ago.
Also, they say they don't have any.
Plus, those that they have, are already closed.
Plus, those that are still open, are not terrorists.
And finally, those who are, are fighting for freedom and dignity of their brethren (whom they reject any human rights).

I can go on, but it's time for you to take your medications. Enough experimenting on Jews.

[Miriam]

if wishes were horses...

long time no see, Takeo


Re. 4 & 6: Would that be the civil war Palestinians say won't happen? Can you imagine the scope of bloodshed involved in uprooting organizations supported by about half of the population?


Re. 1: How can a demand to elect a specific government function in a democratic country? (Imagine an improvement plan for France: "§1 - Jospin gets elected in place of Chirac" )


Re. 8: What makes you think the refugees in question would be interested in performing dirty work in Israel?


In general, out of pure curiosity: is your plan something the PCF would approve of?

[Canajew]

I agree with ibrodsky.

I was going to go through your proposal piece by piece, but there is no point. I like the general outline of your plan (though I have numerous reservations) but ibrodsky is right - this plan is in no way connected with any sort of actual reality. Its like the joke about the economist stranded on a desert island with a can of tuna but no can opener - his solution - assume a can opener.

OK, so assume Israel replaces sharon with a government that will buckle into Palestinian terrorism. Next, assume Arafat will be a good guy now, even though he has never been in the past. Next, assume the international community actually cares about what goes on (aside from caring about political considerations, which are different) and is willing to properly address it (something it has not done before) AND is willing to pay for it with no guarantees that the PA will not just ciphen more $ away for terrorism.

Next, assume the Israelis would stand for allowing Arafat into Jerusalem for talks, and assume Arafat will not use this as an opportunity to call for a million martyrs to march on Jerusalem (if you haven't noticed, he is a little bit of a grandstander, and I doubt he would be able to resist such an opportunity, at least in Arabic).

It goes on like this. Every step in your plan is an assumption. You need to provide some sort of evidence or argument that such assumptions are reasonable (or at least reasonably possible). Steps 1 through 4 are all mere assumptions based on absolutely no evidence, whether empirical or theoretical, and as such this 'plan' is doomed to fail like the rest.

I have no plan of my own, so please don't ask me what i would do. I don't know. I don't think there is a solution, because the Palestinians will not allow it.

However, there are preconditions to a peaceful agreement. These include:

(1) the presence of an interlocutor on both sides, prepared to bargain in good faith and to be bound by any eventual agreement.

(2) a willingness of the domestic populations of each side to be prepared to be bound by an agreement negotiated in good faith by their leaders.

(3) the Palestinians must stop brainwashing their population. (note that this is not a reciprocal precondition as were the previous two because this circumstance is unique to Palestinian society and unless it is addressed BEFORE negotiations are entered into such negotiations cannot succeed)

There are undoubtedly many more, and I cannot, therefore, say that these are sufficient preconditions for a peace settlement, but rather that they are necessary conditions. Without the first two, ANY negotiations will fail, whether in the context of international agreements or private business agreements, while without the third the Palestinians will never be in a position to satisfy conditions 1 and 2.

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:


1) a new center-leftwing Israeli government gets elected (a necessary condition for peace) labour-meretz preferably.

Why? It was Begin to sign Camp-David accords. Yet this depends on the Israeli voters.


2) Israel, together with its allies the US, the EU, Russia and the UN starts to regularly discuss the peace-proces, to assure international backing, assistance and more importantly financial contributions to peace.


lets put it the other way around. Israel would be meeting with US to discuss the peace process since it will be the US that will be providing the "Internation" backing, political assistance, and most importantly financial contributions. The thing is that it is something that US and Israel are currently already doing.


3) Israel invites Arafat and his associates to Jerusalem for high-level talks. the message is very clear and the further steps are laid out.

It happened before. Arafat even spent some time at Camp David.

Arafat must agree.


He will. So?


4) step one: arafat must start dismantling terrorist organisations immidiately and with all means available, he will get all assistance from Israel and the international community doing so.


Yep. Short of starting a civil war of course.


[b] Dismantling means imprisonment of the entire military wing of hamas, jihad, al-aqsa, etc. as well as severe restrictions and dismantling of the civil wing of those organisations.[b/]


Even if the main culprits really exist outside Palestine? Right?


This action must be torough and well organised, every single local cell of the organisations must be outrooted, any resistance must be dealt with accordingly and 1000's of people will be put behind bars. this must be accompanied by heavy propaganda on pâlestinian television against the organisations who jeopardise peace. the israeli army withdraws from all the territories held by the pa.


You make me laugh. Even if Arafat wanted to remove Hamas he wouldn't be able to do it - other Arab regimes would never let him do it.


5) in the meanwhile, Israel starts to remove settlements, forcefully if necessary, any resistance of the armed settlers must be dealt with accordingly. the pace of the removal will depend upon the pace of the palestinian fight against terror and its successes.


So basically if there are court battles and such and if Israel delays for at least one month - basically PA is free to not dismantle Hamas for that month? Right? And in the mean-while some bus explodes just to hurry up the Israelis. Right?


it becomes clear to the palestinians that, if they really fight terror, a palestinian state will become reality. the resettlement of the settlers will be paid for by the international community.


Again it's the international community. Lets just say USA.


6) this step indicates that most settlements have been removed and the terror has been stopped, hamas, jihad and al-aqsa are as good as outrooted and chased upon, no more suicide-attacks inside Israel appear. now the final solution for the area will be discussed upon on an international conference with the un, us, Europe, Russia, the Arab neighbouring countries, etc.


Given that both sides have agreed to the situation on the ground.


7) Israel withdraws totally from the occupied territories and is replaced by an international force, guarding the borders and assuring the agreements will be executed. some parts of the wb and eastern jerusalem will be annexed to israel while some parts of israel will cease to be a part of israel and get under the autority of the pa and the protection of foreign troops. the agreements include palestinians continuing to fight terror, a large non-military border zone as well as giving free acces to israeli tourists to do holy Jewish monuments.


And in the mean-while two more buses explode because some faction in Palestine does not like some minute detail of the peace agreenment. Following the explosion French peace-keepers, who apparently let the bomb through, are fighting a political battle in the UN to prove of how inoccent they are. At the same time Arafat's security forces storm the head-quarters of the extremist organization and 20 people die in the battle. Another week passes and some Palestinian official gets assasinated for siding with the "Zionists." Following the assocination two days of demostrations ensue in which the Pal preventive forces kill 20 and ejure some 100. Following that a UN border potrol is targeted with an RPG killing all four European peace-keepers on board (Israel would never agree to Arab participants) causing condemnation from the UN. At the same time there is enourmous pressure on Arafat to find the guilty while at the same time the same French UN checkpoint misses another suicide bomber which kills another 15 people in a Haifa cafe.

In reality no international force would ever work and you would not find too many volunteers to send their troops to the place. If anything the security has to be worked out between Israelis and Pals.


8) a few 100's of 1000's of palestinian refugees will return to israel from all over the world, if they don't have a terrorist past, papers proving their claim and swear allegiance to the laws of Israel. they will be a very necessary cheap labour because peace made the israeli economy expanding once again. their houses and constructions will be lagely paid for by the international community.


WHAT?!!!!!!! Never will Pals be allowed to work in Israel.

9) the pa and irael sign a non-aggression treaty and treaty of mutual aid in the struggle against crime and terrorism. Also economic treaties and freetrade agreements get signed.


It will never happen. Pals have nothing to offer.


10) israel reconsiders as well with syria and lebanon, promising them to give back the holan-heights and draw a new border according to the 1948 border. Syria in turn has to close all terrorist offices, turn over the suspects, sign a non-aggression treaty and recognise israel.


Until there is going to be a Democratic regime in Damascus Syria will never get the Golan.


11) the palestinian state becomes independant, and both neighbours immidiately recognise eachother.


You basically described the "Road Map." with some extra twicks. So what's new?

[Mil]

In reality what's needed is a brand new approach to the issue and nothing that gives any room for irrelivent discussions or relies on the good-will of the two sides. The latter has been tried over and over. I say unilateral separation of Israel (on Israeli terms of course) from the West Bank and Gaza is best way to accomplish peace. And Jerusalem remains Israeli - of course.

[Canajew]

Originally posted by Mil
In reality what's needed is a brand new approach to the issue and nothing that gives any room for irrelivent discussions or relies on the good-will of the two sides. The latter has been tried over and over. I say unilateral separation of Israel (on Israeli terms of course) from the West Bank and Gaza is best way to accomplish peace. And Jerusalem remains Israeli - of course.

I agree, but this wouldn't really lead to 'peace', would it? Rather the result would be, at best (though exceedingly unlikely), a cease fire and at worst (and almost certainly) continued cross border aggression.

It seems that peace is impossible and what is needed are for people's thoughts and efforts to be dedicated to conflict management rather than conflict resolution. But even with this approach, the 'best case scenario' is likely only to be mediocre.

Until the Palestinians do something so stupidly violent that they get themselves thrown out, then the battle line will move from the 49 armistance line to the 67 armistance lines.

Honestly, I see no end.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Canajew
I agree, but this wouldn't really lead to 'peace', would it? Rather the result would be, at best (though exceedingly unlikely), a cease fire and at worst (and almost certainly) continued cross border aggression.

It seems that peace is impossible and what is needed are for people's thoughts and efforts to be dedicated to conflict management rather than conflict resolution. But even with this approach, the 'best case scenario' is likely only to be mediocre.


Honestly, I see no end.

The rest is "pie in the sky". The conflict is based on Islamic religious hatred and that will never cease. It is up to Israel to defend itself or be a victim again and all the world needs to wake up to Islamic religious hatred. It is a sad chapter in human history.

The core of the problem being Islamic racism needs to be addressed out in the open and removed from the closet.

You can't solve anything if you pretend the main problem doesn't exist.


old reb

[Mil]

Posted by Canajew:


I agree, but this wouldn't really lead to 'peace', would it?


It will. The only way I see peace - if it's enforced.


Rather the result would be, at best (though exceedingly unlikely), a cease fire and at worst (and almost certainly) continued cross border aggression.

At least there will be a Palestinian state with all the applicable rules and Israel would take care of security.


It seems that peace is impossible and what is needed are for people's thoughts and efforts to be dedicated to conflict management rather than conflict resolution. But even with this approach, the 'best case scenario' is likely only to be mediocre.

Nothing has worked. It has to be enforced especially given that religion, specifically Islam, has gotten introduced into the picture.


Until the Palestinians do something so stupidly violent that they get themselves thrown out, then the battle line will move from the 49 armistance line to the 67 armistance lines.


Forget about the transfer - it will NEVER happen.


Honestly, I see no end.

I do.

[NewsGuy]

Well, after observing and analyzing the Israeli/Arab conflict for the better part of my life, I disagree with just about every part of this plan, because it will guarantee the destruction of the State of Israel as a Jewish State. It might also bring the majority of murderous Palestinians closer to their true and ultimate dream of conducting a Jihad-Genocide of the Jews of Israel.

But unfortunately, I think it's fair to say that takeo's plan is probably not far off from the views of most Europeans, and even many Israeli Leftists would sign off on this plan.

Originally posted by takeo
4) step one: arafat must start dismantling terrorist organisations immidiately and with all means available, he will get all assistance from Israel and the international community doing so. Dismantling means imprisonment of the entire military wing of hamas, jihad, al-aqsa, etc. as well as severe restrictions and dismantling of the civil wing of those organisations. This action must be torough and well organised, every single local cell of the organisations must be outrooted, any resistance must be dealt with accordingly and 1000's of people will be put behind bars. this must be accompanied by heavy propaganda on pâlestinian television against the organisations who jeopardise peace. the israeli army withdraws from all the territories held by the pa.

Other than the Arafat reference, this is probably the only part of takeo's plan that makes sense to me and that could actually bring about the beginning of a peace process. But this has been tried time and time again, including in the latest Road Map for Peace.

And each time the Palestinians are required to eliminate their terror organizations, it becomes clear that the majority of the Palestinian people in fact support terrorism and Jihad-Genocide against the Jews, and so the Palestinian leadership is not willing to act against the wishes of its people. (as others have already commented before me).

So, I ask takeo, what does he suggest to do if and when the Palestinian leadership refuses to stop their terrorist brothers?

[Canajew]

Originally posted by Mil
It will. The only way I see peace - if it's enforced.

you can't really impose peace on warring peoples. You can facilitate conditions that will allow them to make peace, and you can facilitate conditions that make war and aggression more difficult (like the wall in the WB), but peace cannot be imposed if one side is unwilling to accept it, unless of course the side that does not want peace is bluggened into submission. And on this logic, the Palestinians must be defeated in order to become independent. Because if they are not defeated they will never be willing to stop fighting. Much like the Japanese in WWII.

At least there will be a Palestinian state with all the applicable rules and Israel would take care of security.

This is ludecrous. Why should the Palestinians, once they gain independence, cooperate with Israel in any way, rather than continuing their efforts to delegitimize Israel in the international arena while continuing to facilitate cross border terrorist activities. the world did nothing in the 50s and 60s about cross border terrorism from Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, so why in the world do you think they will do anything this time other than push israel not to retaliate or take effective measures to counteract these raids?

Nothing has worked. It has to be enforced especially given that religion, specifically Islam, has gotten introduced into the picture.

No, the Palestinians need to be conclusively and totally defeated in order for there to be a functional enforcement mechanism. Not humiliation-defeat, but total functional strategic and tactical defeat. Then the olive branch extended by the Israelis may get a little more respect.

And who is to enforce this 'peace'? The Europeans? Israel would never allow this. the Americans? Arab jihadists would flock to the area to kill as many as they can (and the Americans could be expected to treat the Palestinians far worse than the Israelis in dealing with these jihadists - the American's first inclanation is to carpet bomb when at risk). Some sort of third world intervention force? What kind of political will do you think they would have to stand up to Palestinian terrorist organizations willing to commit any and every kind of attrocity to undermine their morale?

Forget about the transfer - it will NEVER happen.

we'll see. It may be the only answer and while it will surely not happen in the current political environment, there may be circumstances in the future when the international community would be more tollerant of this sort of thing.

But with or without it, I still do not really see peace as a viable outcome. Rather transfer would only deliniate where the front lines are.

Honestly, I see no end.

I do. [/B]

You must be smoking REALLY good grass.

[David_in_NYC]

When France returns Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, we'll consider it.

How naive do you have to be to suggest putting Arafat in charge of dismantling the terror organizations? (This was condition #1 of the Road Map, by the way.) If it's not naivete that motivates such a comment, it must be outright glee at the prospect of more dead Jews.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by David_in_NYC
When France returns Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, we'll consider it.

.

Good point! Bravo! Bravo! Takeo is throwing stones from a house of glass.

old reb