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Thread: Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

  1. #1
    L@mplighterM
    Guest

    Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

    Special Report: Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

    Commentary on the News
    Thursday, September 18, 2003
    Jack Kinsella - Omega Letter Editor


    Many times have I heard people say something like—“The Jews today don't have a drop of Abrahamic blood.” Or that, “The Jews have no racial or historical connection to the Bible and Palestine.” Some Christians explain who the Jews are, saying, “The Jews (or Israel) are people who missed (or rejected) the coming of the Messiah and thus were cast aside by God, and so now God deals with the Gentiles.”


    Arab historian Jarid al-Kidwa told an Arab TV audience, "all the events surrounding Kings Saul, David and Rehoboam occurred in Yemen, and no Hebrew remnants were found in Israel, for a very simple reason--because they were never here."

    Al-Kidwa said: "Most of the Khazars [a Turkish tribe that converted to Judaism in medieval times] are the Ashkenazic Jews who arrived in Palestine. As Allah is my witness, in my blood flows more of the Children of Israel and the ancient Hebrews than in the blood of Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu."

    According to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, al- Kidwa also said: "The stories of the Torah and the Bible did not take place in the Land of Israel--they occurred in the Arabian Peninsula, primarily in Yemen. The identity of our father Ibrahim [Abraham] who is mentioned in the Koran is clear. From the Koran's description of him it arises that he lived in the southern Hejaz [Saudi Arabia], near Mecca."

    Most of those who oppose Israel, and especially those Christians who think spiritual Israel is really the Church, include these and similar arguments to support their view. If true, it would bolster the Arab claim to all of Israel and renew global opposition to a ‘Jewish’ state under the old “Zionism is racism” argument.

    If today’s Jews aren’t descended from Abraham, but are instead a mixed race of people whose only common connection is religion, then they are not a ‘nation’ in any identifiable sense. They are instead religious zealots who usurped a Biblical promise in order to steal land from the Arabs based on a fraudulent claim.

    The Bible promised the land to the ‘seed of Abraham’ – the literal seed of Abraham, not the spiritual seed of Abraham. The spiritual seed of Abraham is the Church.

    If modern-day Jews are not Abraham’s literal seed, but merely the descendents of Jewish converts and followers of Judaic tradition, then the Israeli claim to the Land of Israel is false.

    Abraham’s blessing passed from Isaac to Jacob. “And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.” (Genesis 28:4)

    So clearly, if modern Israel isn’t the physical and literal seed of Abraham, then Israel’s claim to the Land of Promise is a fraud.

    And our support of Israel on the grounds they are God’s Chosen is built on a lie.

    The Bible says that in the last days, the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would return to the ‘mountains of Israel, which have always been waste’(Ezekiel 38:8) and the nation of Israel would be reborn, ‘in a day’ -- (Isaiah 66:8).

    According to Bible prophecy, during the reign of the antichrist, the Temple will be rebuilt and full Temple worship restored.

    But, in order for Temple worship to resume, Jewish religious law requires it first be ritually cleansed. And the only way that the Temple area can be ritually restored is by the application of the ashes of a red heifer by an undefiled Cohanim priest.

    Further complicating things, a Cohanim must meet strict bloodline requirements, including direct descendancy from Aaron, the brother of Moses.

    So we have lots of problems here that must be solved before the Tribulation Period begins.

    1. Ethnic Jews, and not merely religious Jews, qualify to inherit the Land of Promise, according to Scripture. If these are the last days, the Jews of Israel MUST be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

    2. To ritually cleanse the Temple, only an ethnic descendant of Aaron, brother of Moses, is qualified to perform the ceremony.

    3. The Cohanim must not be ritually defiled himself.

    The Bible says that the Jewish priesthood, the Cohanim, began 3000 years ago when God anointed Aaron, brother of Moses, to be Israel’s High Priest.

    “And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him. . . . .And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office,” Exodus 28:43, 30:30).

    The title of cohen is paternally inherited. Most Jewish men surnamed Cohen are also Cohanim, but so are many men with other surnames.

    Recently, a genetic study of modern-day Cohanim has provided the first scientific evidence supporting the oral tradition of an ancient priestly lineage.

    Karl Skorecki, a physician who studies the genetics of kidney disease at the Technion in Haifa, Israel, and colleagues in London and the United States realized that they could study the lineage of priests by looking at the Y chromosome, which only men carry.

    Unlike all other chromosomes in our cells, the Y chromosome, which bears the male sex-determining gene, is passed essentially unchanged from father to son, barring rare mutations.

    The researchers extracted DNA from cells scraped from the inner cheeks of 188 unrelated, self-identified Cohanim from Israel, North America, and Britain. They then looked for the presence or absence of a well-studied small stretch of DNA on the Y chromosome called yap, or “Y”.

    If this hereditary tradition has been closely followed, the Y-chromosomes of the Cohanim today should bear some resemblance to one another because of their unbroken link back to a common ancestor, Aaron.

    Genetic studies among Cohanim from all over the world say about 50 percent of Cohanim have that unusual set of genetic markers on their Y chromosome.

    What is equally striking is that this genetic signature of the Cohanim is extremely rare outside of Jewish populations.

    The Y chromosome also keeps track of time. Small mutations occur in the DNA being passed on, and these changes build up with each generation. Like the tick of a clock, the number of these mutations is a measure of time passed.

    By looking at the differences between Y-chromosomes in the Cohanim, researchers can estimate roughly how many generations ago members of the priesthood had a common ancestor.

    Remarkably, the evidence suggests the Cohanim chromosomes coalesce at a date that corresponds with the generation of Aaron.

    This proves to a scientific certainty that the Jews of Israel are the physical descendants of the Promise.

    And a group of rabbis is quietly seeking families of the Jewish priestly caste (Cohanim) who are willing to hand over their newborn sons for a special mission: to be raised in conditions of isolation and ritual purity in order to deal with the next red heifer, if and when she is found.

    According to the organizers, sons of Cohanim raised in purity, under conditions stipulated by halacha, or Jewish law, are essential for the purification of those ritually defiled by the dead. Cohanim who are themselves ritually defiled, as already noted, cannot prepare the red heifer for burning or prepare her ashes for sprinkling on the ritually defiled among the People of Israel.

    And the search for a ritually pure red heifer continues. One was believed to have been born in Israel last year, but was subsequently disqualified after it developed a blemish.

    The Cohanim Gene proves that the nation ‘born in a day’ on May 14, 1948 is the hereditary nation of Israel whose rebirth Scripture says marks the birth of the generation that will see the return of Christ.

    The nearness of the Tribulation is exemplified by the fact that there are qualified Cohanim being raised under ritually pure conditions to prepare them for the ritual cleansing of the Third Temple. There is an ongoing, worldwide search for a qualifying red heifer.

    The Jews continue to wage war with the Palestinians over the future possession of the city of Jerusalem and ultimately, possession of the Temple Mount.

    God’s Word will not return to Him void. He has spoken it, and it will come to pass.

    The modern science of genetics disproves the physical element of the replacement theologian’s arguments, and the clear teaching of Scripture disproves the spiritual elements.

    God is clearly not finished with the Jews. He has outlined His future plans for their national redemption in the pages of Scripture. The enemies of Israel are blind to the truth.

    And the future is almost now.

    Excerpted from the Omega Letter Daily Intelligence Digest, Vol: 24 Issue: 14


    http://www.omegaletter.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=1737


    I do believe that Arab historians add to the conflict by altering history, to suit the Muslims purpose and this in return pours oil on the fire of hatred, that Islam has for Jews.

  2. #2
    alexbmn
    Guest
    dude this is mad old news.ALL of it.

  3. #3
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    Originally posted by alexbmn
    dude this is mad old news.ALL of it.
    I agree it’s old news but I do think that it’s partially responsible for Arabs killing Jews and therefore it becomes part of the conflict.

  4. #4
    RichardP
    Guest
    Originally posted by L@mplighterM
    I agree it’s old news but I do think that it’s partially responsible for Arabs killing Jews and therefore it becomes part of the conflict.
    True, it's an old story but it still comes into orbit now and then, for one reason only! More Arab anti-Semitic propaganda and their warped self-justification to kill more Israelis/Jews. Frankly, I don't give a what the a-holes think!

  5. #5
    frizzer1
    Guest
    Carl Skorecki went to the same toronto shul as I did.There were about 6 Kohanim who regularly attended, including Carl and me.
    One day he watched as a fellow Kohane was called up to the bima and he noticed that he & the other Kohane were completely different in appearance.That was the first time that he wondered whether there was a genetic link between Kohanim.
    He later moved to Israel and set up his team to study genetics and eventually the study of Kohanim was done.
    Altho I was never tested for the study, I have wondered who the kohane that he compared to himself was, and whether it was me or one of the others.

  6. #6
    abu afak
    Guest
    Originally posted by L@mplighterM
    I agree it’s old news but I do think that it’s partially responsible for Arabs killing Jews and therefore it becomes part of the conflict.
    If Jews weren't 'real Jews' then Arabs wouldn't have to kill them, as they wouldn't be the same Jews derogatorally mentioned in the Koran.
    (Yes I know .. they are also 'people of the book').

    I have published several of the Genetic studies here many times.

    One still sees the 'Khazar' accusation on the net.. tho less than 2 years or 1 year ago.
    We probably really don't need to bring it up here unless someone comes to the board as a Doubter.
    Last edited by abu afak; 09-21-2003 at 03:22 PM.

  7. #7
    Noam
    Guest

    Re: Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

    According to the Egyptian lawyer who are suing us for Pharaoh's Gold to the tune of severl trillions....We are one and the same.

  8. #8
    Moskal'
    Guest

    Re: Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

    Originally posted by L@mplighterM
    Special Report: Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

    Commentary on the News
    Thursday, September 18, 2003
    Jack Kinsella - Omega Letter Editor


    Many times have I heard people say something like—“The Jews today don't have a drop of Abrahamic blood.” Or that, “The Jews have no racial or historical connection to the Bible and Palestine.” Some Christians explain who the Jews are, saying, “The Jews (or Israel) are people who missed (or rejected) the coming of the Messiah and thus were cast aside by God, and so now God deals with the Gentiles.”


    Arab historian Jarid al-Kidwa told an Arab TV audience, "all the events surrounding Kings Saul, David and Rehoboam occurred in Yemen, and no Hebrew remnants were found in Israel, for a very simple reason--because they were never here."

    Al-Kidwa said: "Most of the Khazars [a Turkish tribe that converted to Judaism in medieval times] are the Ashkenazic Jews who arrived in Palestine. As Allah is my witness, in my blood flows more of the Children of Israel and the ancient Hebrews than in the blood of Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu."

    According to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, al- Kidwa also said: "The stories of the Torah and the Bible did not take place in the Land of Israel--they occurred in the Arabian Peninsula, primarily in Yemen. The identity of our father Ibrahim [Abraham] who is mentioned in the Koran is clear. From the Koran's description of him it arises that he lived in the southern Hejaz [Saudi Arabia], near Mecca."

    Most of those who oppose Israel, and especially those Christians who think spiritual Israel is really the Church, include these and similar arguments to support their view. If true, it would bolster the Arab claim to all of Israel and renew global opposition to a ‘Jewish’ state under the old “Zionism is racism” argument.

    If today’s Jews aren’t descended from Abraham, but are instead a mixed race of people whose only common connection is religion, then they are not a ‘nation’ in any identifiable sense. They are instead religious zealots who usurped a Biblical promise in order to steal land from the Arabs based on a fraudulent claim.

    The Bible promised the land to the ‘seed of Abraham’ – the literal seed of Abraham, not the spiritual seed of Abraham. The spiritual seed of Abraham is the Church.

    If modern-day Jews are not Abraham’s literal seed, but merely the descendents of Jewish converts and followers of Judaic tradition, then the Israeli claim to the Land of Israel is false.
    ...etc,etc,etc
    Who cares if jews are the descendants the jews who lived in Israel/Judaea about 4000-2000 years ago. No claim on territory can be made basing on these facts! This is sick! Peoples often moved, and there was no real origins of peoples in the beginning of time. According to the bible, the jews, in person of Abraham, moved to Kanaan from the sumerian city of Ur.

    This claim is as irrational as claiming israel for the arabs basing on the fact that about 1400 till 200 years ago, there were more arabs then jews in Israel.

    No serious claims can be made basing on religion! Jews were promised Israel by their god, while arabs were promised all the world by theirs. Who cares?

    Nations are not genetic connections! The british nation is comprised of genetical celts, angles, saxons, normans, and many other peoples having nothing in common! What makes the british a nation are the common rites, culture, way of life and ancient legends. Therefore, jews ARE a nation, (or two nations, Ashkhenasim and Sephardim) while the "palestinians" are not.

    Israeli claim on the land is based on the independance declaration 1948. Then, there was no state in Palestine (as the british gave up their mandate), so the jewish inhabitants of geographic palestine proclaimed the state of Israel in no-man's land. Most inhabitants of the world accepted that there was nothing wrong about it, as their respective representers recognized Israel.

    Those jewish inhabitants were mostly immigrants. But as there was no state in 'Palestine', there were no 'citizens' of this state, thus all people living there were equal.

    The claim on Judaea, Samaria ang Gaza is simply the ancient right of conquest in a rightful war. Germany lost territories in wars it started, and so did the arabs. Nothing wrong, no reason for revisionism.

    Therefore, it is absolutly irrelevant if modern jews or israelis are actually descendants of Hebrews, Khazars or Bantus. This doesn't change a thing on their claim on Israel

  9. #9
    Noam
    Guest

    Re: Re: Are Today's Jews Really Ancient Israel?

    That is nonesense.
    Everything on earth has history, sequence, beginnings and endings.
    The Indians for ever will demand land from the White man
    Arabs claim that AL aksa is their holy place based on some farfetched of a dream by muhammad and his flying horse Buraq to the far away city (there is some search lately by arab scholars that prove that that city is Medina)
    Jews have history.
    We were in exile for 2000 years. Every year we keep saying: Next year in Jerusalem and Psalms 90 says ; "If I forget thee, oh Jerusalem , may my right hand wither...."

    The Jews were given a part of the land by the world.
    At the same time--Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon were formed too out of the OTOMAN EMPIRE....
    There is no more right for Syria to be an independent country that Israel.

    The only problem in the Middle East is that ISLAM CANNOT ACCEPT (for multiple reasons) the EXISTENCE of an INDEPENDENT, DEMOCRATIC, JEWISH ENTITY in its midst.

    The Palestinians are nothing but CANNON FODDER used by the Arab world when they began to realize they cannot destroy the Jews on the battle field (aided by the KGB and other nice people).

    However, THere is NO JUSTIFICATION to Jewish presence in the Holy Land if we give up Hebron, Jerusalem, and other holy sites which constitue the ESSENENCE OF THE NATURE of the PURPOSES OF ISRAEL AS

    THE ONLY REFUGE PLACE FOR JEWS IN THE WHOLE WORLD.

    Long subject. I am sure we meet again.

  10. #10
    Chaya_G
    Guest
    Their latest attack is at least interesting, but so what if it were true that all Jews were descendents of converts? Converts are respected in Judaism, with some important Jewish leaders being either converts or sons of converts. The Davidic line itself can be traced to a convert--Ruth, a Moabite. Abraham himself is often called the "first convert." I realize that Mochiach must be descended from David ha Melech, but there are still families living who can trace their ancestors to him. Anyway, I'm preaching to the converted!

  11. #11
    Semsem
    Guest
    Questioniong whether present day Jews are really decendents of the biblical Jews is distortion of history. We know from the Roman Jewish historian Josephus that the Jews arrived in Rome as slaves. Go to Rome and you can see on a 2,000 year old building a menorah with Jews arriving in Rome.

    Even ancient eveidence of a Jewish presence over 1,500 years ago have been found in Austria and Romania as well as in France.

    Jews on the island of Djerba in Tunisia trace their ancestry back to the first exile in 550 BC. Iraqi Jews trace their ancestry back to the same period.

    European Kohanim and Iraqi Kohanim have similar genes evidenced by DNA testing etc.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
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    The reason that the Arabs and some Christians attack the genetic/familial/tribal heritage is not about Jews....but about keeping the faithful.

    If these Arabs and Christians admit that the Jews have a historical tie to Israel, then they have to deal with some uncomfortable for them arguments from within their own religious traditions which state that the Jews have the right to Israel and need to be respected until the end of days.

    However, by denying this pretty darn clear link, they can ignore those sections of the Qu'ran and the Bible.

  13. #13
    eastbank2
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Moskal'
    Who cares if jews are the descendants the jews who lived in Israel/Judaea about 4000-2000 years ago. No claim on territory can be made basing on these facts! This is sick! Peoples often moved, and there was no real origins of peoples in the beginning of time. According to the bible, the jews, in person of Abraham, moved to Kanaan from the sumerian city of Ur.

    This claim is as irrational as claiming israel for the arabs basing on the fact that about 1400 till 200 years ago, there were more arabs then jews in Israel.

    No serious claims can be made basing on religion! Jews were promised Israel by their god, while arabs were promised all the world by theirs. Who cares?

    Nations are not genetic connections! The british nation is comprised of genetical celts, angles, saxons, normans, and many other peoples having nothing in common! What makes the british a nation are the common rites, culture, way of life and ancient legends. Therefore, jews ARE a nation, (or two nations, Ashkhenasim and Sephardim) while the "palestinians" are not.

    Israeli claim on the land is based on the independance declaration 1948. Then, there was no state in Palestine (as the british gave up their mandate), so the jewish inhabitants of geographic palestine proclaimed the state of Israel in no-man's land. Most inhabitants of the world accepted that there was nothing wrong about it, as their respective representers recognized Israel.

    Those jewish inhabitants were mostly immigrants. But as there was no state in 'Palestine', there were no 'citizens' of this state, thus all people living there were equal.

    The claim on Judaea, Samaria ang Gaza is simply the ancient right of conquest in a rightful war. Germany lost territories in wars it started, and so did the arabs. Nothing wrong, no reason for revisionism.

    Therefore, it is absolutly irrelevant if modern jews or israelis are actually descendants of Hebrews, Khazars or Bantus. This doesn't change a thing on their claim on Israel

    The fact that Jews are genetically connected is important because it defeats the argument that Judiasm is only a religion. Most of us would object to a nation whos nationality was based on Islam. But most of your post about I agree with, especially the irrationality of claiming Israel based on our being there 2000 years ago.

  14. #14
    eastbank2
    Guest
    The Hammer study pretty much summarized Jew genetics 3 years ago, summarized here nicely in the Times:

    http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/genetics.htm

    Interesting was the point that ethiopians have some similar genetics. It kind of supports the theory that they were Solomons love child with a black girl.



    Also what is this "red heifer" that was brought up in the article???

  15. #15
    Semsem
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by eastbank2
    The fact that Jews are genetically connected is important because it defeats the argument that Judiasm is only a religion. Most of us would object to a nation whos nationality was based on Islam. But most of your post about I agree with, especially the irrationality of claiming Israel based on our being there 2000 years ago.
    So what if we decided to return after 2,000 years in exile. I really don't see what is so sick about it. Unusual yes but sick no. All the Arabs had to do was read the bible. It says so clearly we will return "on eagle's wings."

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