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Thread: European Bias

  1. #1
    old-reb
    Guest

    European Bias

    Last night I was at a dance for us old folks and I was sitting with a German WW2 veteran and his Italian girlfriend. Otto was telling one joke after another but then he told the following joke: There was a Jew and a Christian boy that lived and played together from the time they were only a few years old and the best of friends but one day as teenagers the Christian boy punched the Jewish boy in the nose and blood spattered everywhere and the Jewish boy asked, "Why have you done that to me?" The Christian boy replied, "because your people killed my Christ!"
    "But that happened 3000 years ago, why do you punch me now?
    "Because I just heard about it yesterday", replied the Christian boy.
    That was the joke.

    So, I asked Otto, "What do you think could be done to end the problem with Israel in the middle east?

    He replied,'If the USA would stay out of it the Arabs would have solved the problem years ago.

    Then there would be no Israel, I replied

    Otto says, "The Jews never had an army or country before, why should they have one now?"

    They started playing a polka; Otto stands up head up, tall and proud; proud almost to the point of being arrogant and he does the polka with an aristocrat cultured manner that no American can match. Before the dance is over Otto slumps back to his seat. Defeated by time and lack of breath.

    old reb

  2. #2
    old-reb
    Guest

    The mind

    In spite of making hundreds of post for Israel and reading thousands and seeing the horror of attempted Islamic genocide of Israel, in spite of all that I could say nothing. It just seemed so simple and easy; so uncomplicated. It followed what I had always been taught in my youth. It had to be right.

    We were in a Liberal setting, women everywhere and conditioned to be happy and not argue or fight. Pleasantness was paramount. I asked Otto his opinion of Israel, he didn't just voluntarily blurt out the words.
    -------

    I marvel that others can dismiss the loss of Israel as nothing but I see how easily it can be.

    How would you reply to the German and remain calm, civilized non-agressive and pleasent to the ladies. Anything else would brand you a nut and your words would land on deaf ears.

    old reb

  3. #3
    Isiah 2:4
    Guest
    Its not a 'European' Bias though is it?

    Its a Bias purported by a couple who just happen to Europeans.

    There are biases all over the world, of every slant ,side and colour of the spectrum.

    Even over the pond.

  4. #4
    Adversary2Arabs
    Guest
    With a few major exceptions, eveything European and their colonies and former colonies (IE. Australia, South Africa, etc) all seem to be generally anti-Israel.

    And yes, if you're anti-Israel you're pro-Palestinian. There is no nuetrality in this world as I've come to find out. You can say you're nuetral all day long - it doesn't mean you don't support one side more than the other.

  5. #5
    takeo
    Guest
    in France you will be much more likely to hear anti-Arab bias instead of anti-semitic bias. Don't be offended so easily, i can imagine what for example Afghan or pakistani (or, why not, French) people have to endure in the us...
    There will always be biased and racist people all over the world (in not in the least here on this forum) but as long as they don't make the policy it's not a real problem.
    But concerning old german WWII-veterans, i have some bad experience as well, my family told me never to trust germans... kind of a bias indeed, but still they are not as reformed as they claim to be. I met some old austrian veterans who were still very sorry they lost the war against "those barbarians" (the Russians)

  6. #6
    old-reb
    Guest

    defend Israel

    I think a big problem is how to voice defense for Israel in a civilized way.

    Otto Merrily told a joke and expressed a simple solution for the Arab/Israel conflict.

    I said nothing. I could accuse him of being of being a Nazi, of wanting 6 million people die. I could go into how the Muslims don't want any Kafirs in their territory. I could punch him in the nose.

    This is a problem for a Israel supporters. I need an intelligent civilized reply to his common anti-semitic statement.

    How would you reply to him? He is a best friend.

    old reb

  7. #7
    humus_sapiens
    Guest
    Why the Jews restored their country? Because they had some rather "unpleasant" experiences in Galut, if you know what I mean. We realized that we need a strong defense to protect us for the future.

    If this is too polite and too politically correct, I think the Jews deserve their own country more than the Germans, especially those like him. Why no one questions the rights of Jordanians to have their own state?
    Last edited by humus_sapiens; 09-21-2003 at 03:21 PM.

  8. #8
    frizzer1
    Guest

    Re: defend Israel

    Originally posted by old-reb
    I think a big problem is how to voice defense for Israel in a civilized way.

    Otto Merrily told a joke and expressed a simple solution for the Arab/Israel conflict.

    I said nothing. I could accuse him of being of being a Nazi, of wanting 6 million people die. I could go into how the Muslims don't want any Kafirs in their territory. I could punch him in the nose.

    This is a problem for a Israel supporters. I need an intelligent civilized reply to his common anti-semitic statement.

    How would you reply to him? He is a best friend.

    old reb
    You ask a good question.If he's a friend that makes it more difficult...and I have found that in a social setting, when you are unprepared for that kind of statement, you tend to be shocked and find yourself unable to act.
    I was in Nassau with friends back in the 60's. and there was a table close to us with 2 white suited germans...they practically fit the stereoptype.with their hollywoodish german accents. They started ridiculing the young black waiter and he was shaking and frightened...and we just sat there...all of the tables around us saw it too..and we did nothing....
    I still am ashamed of that.
    I think though that with your friend,,you should explain to him that the holocaust showed us that we need a country to call our own..somewhere we can find reguge if need be..and a country that will protect us when the rest of the world stands by & watches.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I don't find Zud Africa to be generally antisemitic. In fact I find most English speaking places to be somewhat more sympathetic publically and politically to Israel compared to non English speaking places and people.

    I think Oz and Kiwi are going through a conservative isolationist far right phase or maybe they're just more vocal about it now.

  10. #10
    Communication
    Guest
    Once a Nazi, always a Nazi. That's what I'd say, friend or not. He's basically advocating another holocaust. And somehow, this time, the extermination of the remanent of world Jewry would come without the cost of European guilt for the deed because it would be the Arabs finishing off the job. Sorry, Otto, but not according to all those signs that European shop owners pointed to in their windows telling the Jews to go to Palestine when they refused to sell them bread.

  11. #11
    old-reb
    Guest

    Re: Re: defend Israel

    Originally posted by frizzer1
    You ask a good question.If he's a friend that makes it more difficult...and I have found that in a social setting, when you are unprepared for that kind of statement, you tend to be shocked and find yourself unable to act.
    I was in Nassau with friends back in the 60's. and there was a table close to us with 2 white suited germans...they practically fit the stereoptype.with their hollywoodish German accents. They started ridiculing the young black waiter and he was shaking and frightened...and we just sat there...all of the tables around us saw it too..and we did nothing....
    I still am ashamed of that.

    I think though that with your friend,,you should explain to him that the holocaust showed us that we need a country to call our own..somewhere we can find reguge if need be..and a country that will protect us when the rest of the world stands by & watches.
    I think this is the best advice and I will prepare myself with info on the fact that Israel existed before and how history has proven the dangers of trusting foreign armys to protect them.

    With the public abuse, there is more danger. I saw a black man abusing some white waitresses and another black man repremended him but the abusive blackman warned the good one that he might lose his life if he didn't go back and sit down, so he did.

    old reb

  12. #12
    old-reb
    Guest
    Originally posted by Communication
    Once a Nazi, always a Nazi. That's what I'd say, friend or not. He's basically advocating another holocaust. And somehow, this time, the extermination of the remanent of world Jewry would come without the cost of European guilt for the deed because it would be the Arabs finishing off the job. Sorry, Otto, but not according to all those signs that European shop owners pointed to in their windows telling the Jews to go to Palestine when they refused to sell them bread.
    Communication,

    What you say is absolutely true and he even boast of his military victory's; however he is now a nice old 85 year old man and at this point the Israel thing becomes a political thing while friendship and good relations in our group reigns supreme.
    Still, I must not let such statements go unchallenged.

    old reb

  13. #13
    old-reb
    Guest
    Originally posted by humus_sapiens
    Why the Jews restored their country? Because they had some rather "unpleasant" experiences in Galut, if you know what I mean. We realized that we need a strong defense to protect us for the future.

    If this is too polite and too politically correct, I think the Jews deserve their own country more than the Germans, especially those like him. Why no one questions the rights of Jordanians to have their own state?
    I googled galut and found it to be a name Jews applied to themselves.

    I also looked for the time the Jews were driven out of Israel and found mostly bible quotes.

    I still don't know what I will say if the subject comes up again.

    Two points would help. Knowing when and why Israel ceased to exist and something about Galut.

    old reb

  14. #14
    Da Chuckstar
    Guest
    Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
    With a few major exceptions, eveything European and their colonies and former colonies (IE. Australia, South Africa, etc) all seem to be generally anti-Israel.

    And yes, if you're anti-Israel you're pro-Palestinian. There is no nuetrality in this world as I've come to find out. You can say you're nuetral all day long - it doesn't mean you don't support one side more than the other.
    Excuse me? How dare you lump in Australia along with other European countries. Australia is nothing like Europe. Our Prime Minister is a good friend of Israel and the Australian Jewish community. Here is an account of his visit to Israel in 2000:

    http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2000/256/howisr.html

    Next time get your facts straight before opening your mouth. Don't condemn people who are on your side.

  15. #15
    Da Chuckstar
    Guest
    Here is a short interview with John Howard regarding Israel:

    Howard awarded honorary doctorate in Israel
    AM Archive - Monday, 1 May , 2000 00:00:00
    Reporter: Alexandra Kirk

    COMPERE: The Prime Minister, John Howard, currently visiting Israel has been awarded an honorary doctorate for his loyalty to Jewish causes and the Jewish State.

    Alexandra Kirk reports from Jerusalem:

    ALEXANDRA KIRK: The Prime Minister has for decades been an avid supporter of Jewish people and the State of Israel. He says it all started back in the 1950s as a law student at Sydney University.

    JOHN HOWARD: Friendships which have endured to this day and as a very Anglo-Celtic Protestant boy growing up in the suburbs of Sydney, that experience was very special. It exposed me to the breadths and the quality of Jewish life.

    ALEXANDRA KIRK: He says the affection he has for Jewish people and Israel will never be diminished.

    JOHN HOWARD: No community in the world in recorded human history has suffered as much from intolerance and prejudice and persecution as have the Jewish people.

    ALEXANDRA KIRK: Mr Howard's now a member of a rather exclusive club, world leaders who have an honorary doctorate from the Bar-Ilan University in Tel Aviv, people like US Vice-President Al Gore, former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and five Israeli Prime Ministers.

    UNIDENTIFIED: Mr Prime Minister your public statements throughout your political career have demonstrated a firm loyalty to Jewish causes and to the State of Israel.

    ALEXANDRA KIRK: On the back of the program for the ceremony was a letter from Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, congratulating him on his award and what came as a surprise to many, praising Mr Howard for initiating Nazi war criminal trials legislation.

    While Mr Howard did support the establishment of the War Crimes Unit, it was in fact the Labor Government's initiative. In 1992, Labor closed it down after it failed to mount one successful prosecution.

    Timed to coincide with Mr Howard's visit, Effram Zuroff from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem is calling for the unit to be re-opened. He says because of Australia's requirement that witnesses appear in person, criminal prosecution is difficult, so the Government should also opt for de-naturalisation and deportation.

    EFFRAM ZUROFF: They be deported to the country where the crimes were committed, in most cases - or to Germany. That has not proven to be a problem, neither in the United States nor in Canada. I think that Australia could de-naturalise and deport anywhere between 10 and 15 of these people and in a sense the terrible shame, I think, of Australia's record to date will be changed.

    COMPERE: Effram Zuroff from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.
    http://www.abc.net.au/am/s122380.htm

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