The Switzerland agreement - new peace initiative

[Lowell]

Originally posted by sharonbn
The news item apeared in Ynet in Hebrew, therefore I didn't see it necessary to provide a link.

OK. I for one don't read Hebrew well. But I do read English fairly well, and this article speaks to the slim chances of peace between Israel and the 'Palestinians':

"They succeeded in gaining control in most of the [world's] powerful states, and they – a tiny community – became a world power. But 1.3 billion Muslims must not be defeated by a few million Jews. A way must be found."

Thus opined the prime minister of Malaysia, Mahtir Mohammad at the opening of the two-day Organization of Islamic States summit he is currently hosting.

"The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews are in control of the world via their proxies. They lead others to fight and die for them."

Warming to the anti-Semitic theme, the Palestinian delegate Mohammad a-Farrah said, "If we are weak, no one will support us. The Israelis respect only the strong, and we must therefore all unite."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1066287142965

What chance is there of peace if this is how the Muslim world views Israel?

[sharonbn]

Yes, I heard the Malaysian president speech on the news.
I think the Geneva agreement shows that not all Muslims share his pov. It also shows that not all Palestinians wish to see the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew.

The next obstacle, after the agreement was signed last week, is how Israeli and Palestinian public opinions will receive the agreement. The Yedioth poll indicates there is a chance that a large portion of the Israeli public will accept the terms of the agreement. This can start a motion that eventually can force the Israeli gov't and PA into the negotiating table.

[Canajew]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Yes, I heard the Malaysian president speech on the news.
I think the Geneva agreement shows that not all Muslims share his pov. It also shows that not all Palestinians wish to see the destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew.

The next obstacle, after the agreement was signed last week, is how Israeli and Palestinian public opinions will receive the agreement. The Yedioth poll indicates there is a chance that a large portion of the Israeli public will accept the terms of the agreement. This can start a motion that eventually can force the Israeli gov't and PA into the negotiating table.

2 things:

1. the geneva agreement does not necessarily show that not all Muslims share the Indonesian PMs POVand that not all Palestinians wish to see Israel destroyed - they could conceivably be purposely lying, much like Arafat and his Cabal the last time (they agreed to a 2 state solution, but only in the context of a full right of retun). many Palestinians agreed to the last peace plan becuase they believed it a good start for their ongoing war.

I am obviously aware that indeed some Muslims DO support Israel's right to exist and DO want to make peace, but the fact that this agreement was prepared is not necessarily proof of any of these people as reasonable alternative explanations exist (especially with some of the statements Yasser Rabbo or whatever his name is has made in the past).

2. Just because a majority of Israelis want this agreement or accept the terms of this agreement and EVEN if the Palestinians who rule the Palestinians agree to it, this STILL does not mean there will be peace if the palestinians refuse to enforce it or refuse to abide by their commitments or have no intention ex ante of doing either. We've been doewn this road before and I see no reason to take these more seriously than the last.

And by the way, I am fairly certain that the Malaysian PMs statements were not those of the minority, rather they represent the dominant view of Muslims in 3rd world countries (in the west I figure they are a substantial minority but perhaps not a majority). If 1 out of 100 stands up and says lets make peace while the other 99 call for that one's death, what do you think the chances of actual peace are?

'Forcing' the parties to the negotiating table is less than useless if no one on the Plaestinian side is genuinely willing to negotiate in good faith. Without this, what would follow wopuld be just another round of Israel making lots of concessions, the Plaestininas accepting them but refusing to actually DO anything in exchange, and then blaming Israel for the start of another 'popular uprising' after they 'inform' their people that Israel did not really offer anything.

Why are people so myopic when looking at immediate hostory?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Canajew
Why are people so myopic when looking at immediate hostory?

For the same reason ppl choose to view immediate hostory in a one-sided manner

[Lowell]

Originally posted by sharonbn
For the same reason ppl choose to view immediate hostory in a one-sided manner

Don't you mean one eyed?

[Frans_1]

For the same reason ppl choose to view immediate hostory in a one-sided manner

That is not the wHOle STORY, no.

[Noam]

"Why are people so myopic when looking at immediate hostory? "

The biggest problem with this document is that NO WHERE WOULD THE ARABS UTTER THE WORD:

JEWISH STATE

A state of the Jewish people..... that is max they can say.

Well....THere will never be peace in the Middle east until ISLAM accepts a JEWSISH ENTITY in their midst.

Until them ....every thing is CALAM FADI.

However,,,, Beilin need to justify the huge salary he gets from the European Union (and who knows who else)....

He is our Lewis Farrakhan.

[sharonbn]

Yossi Beilin receives no salary from the EU or any other foreign entity.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Yossi Beilin receives no salary from the EU or any other foreign entity.

You either in denail or uninformed. The EU strongly finance anti zionist organizations, or left parties. Either direnctly, or through "peace prizes". You can dig some matirial in nfc.co.il.

Bronfman, zehava gal'on, beilin, the refuseniks, communist parties within our university campuses... all have alot of money to spend on PR campaigns. Thinks a little where the money comes from... EU!

Thinking about extrem left... are you being paid as well?

[Mediocrates]

By AARON ISRAELSON


In shepherding the "Geneva Initiative" the Swiss government surely acted with the best of intentions.

In pursuit of peace for Israel and the Palestinians, it circumvented Israel's elected government on an important national issue. Such kindness should not go unpaid. Switzerland, too, has political problems that could benefit from Israel's unsolicited intervention.

Switzerland must join the European Union. Though 80 percent of Swiss voted against a referendum to join the EU, Israel should not be deterred from doing what is best for Switzerland.

Current Swiss-EU bilateral agreements should be considered unsatisfactory interim measures. Switzerland belongs in the EU. Just look at the map.

Israel could initiate negotiations between Brussels and representatives of the pro-EU minority in the canton of Geneva. This canton rejected the EU referendum by 58%. If the negotiations are successful, the canton of Geneva and perhaps the rest of Switzerland will follow.

Independence, neutrality, and banking secrecy are important to the Swiss. The Israeli government should certainly take that into account when it encourages the pro-EU minority to concede all of these points in negotiations with Brussels.

Geneva is the world capital of private banking. In the context of the developing world, private banking is often a euphemism for tax evasion and stashing bribes abroad, both of which contribute to injustice and misery in those countries.

Since "injustice and misery are the principal causes of terrorism," according to the Socialist Party of Switzerland, Israel and the rest of the world have a clear interest in forcing these concessions from the Swiss.

SWITZERLAND is also on the verge of losing its standing as a democracy. One democratic axiom is the possibility of changing governments in response to the will of the people. Switzerland is about to fail this test.

The Swiss government is comprised of seven ministers chosen by the federal parliament. The political composition, however, was fixed in 1959 and is known as "the magic formula."

The three major parties – the Radical Democrats, the Christian Democrats and the Socialists – each receive two ministries, while the far-right Swiss People's Party (SVP) receives one.

In the federal elections of 1996, the SVP came in fourth place with 14.9% of the popular vote. In 1999, though, the SVP out-polled the other three parties with 22.6% popular support. Their demand for a second ministry at the expense of the Christian Democrats (15.6%) was rejected.

Projections – as we go to press – for the October 19 ballot show the SVP increasing its support to 26%, followed by the Socialists (22%), the Radical Democrats (20%) and the Christian Democrats (15%). Will the "magic formula" be imposed again, giving the SVP half the ministries of the Christian Democrats despite getting nearly twice the votes?

Without endorsing the SVP's sometimes racist politics, the Israeli government ought not wait for an invitation to share its expertise on coalition governments that represent the will of the people.

With Israeli assistance, Switzerland might be able to retain its place in the community of democracies. Swiss politics is too important to be left to Swiss politicians. Political intervention, invited or not, is a moral duty.

The writer is a former private banker living in Geneva

[L@mplighterM]

JERUSALEM, Oct 21 (AFP) - A right-wing Knesset member Tuesday accused high-profile Israeli leftists who drafted an unofficial peace plan with the Palestinians of "treason" and demanded they be sentenced to death or life imprisonment.


"Those who initiated the Geneva agreement have perpetrated a crime of treason necessitating a death sentence or life imprisonement," Shaul Yahalom, who heads the radical National Religious Party (NRP), wrote in a letter to Attorney General Elyakim Rubinstein, according to a copy obtained by AFP.

The symbolic Geneva peace plan was drawn up last week between Israeli left-wingers, including former justice minister Yossi Beilin, and leading Palestinians such as former information minister Yasser Abed Rabbo.

Yahalom charged that the "Israelis behind this initiative have devised an agreement whose goal is, among other things, to deprive Israel of its sovereignty over the (Palestinian territories) and notably Jerusalem."

According to available details, the plan provides for shared sovereignty over disputed areas of the holy city of Jerusalem and gives the Palestinians 97.5 percent of the West Bank.

In exchange, Palestinian refugees would waive their right of return to areas now incorporated in the state of Israel as it was founded in 1948.

It is likely to be "signed" next month in Switzerland, possibly on November 4, the eighth anniversary of the assassination of former peacemaking Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin by a Jewish extremist.

Israel has applied the death penalty only once, against Nazi SS Lieutenant Colonel Adolf Eichmann, one of the architects of the Jewish Holocaust during World War II. He was hanged in a prison near Tel Aviv in 1962.

http://www.newsvantage.com/perl/p/we...ews.front_page

[Noam]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Yossi Beilin receives no salary from the EU or any other foreign entity.

You, Dearie, are a PREVARICATOR. PERIOD!

[Noam]

Originally posted by sharonbn Ynet, Oct. 9th - A group of senior leaders from the Israeli left-wing parties and other political organizations is working in the last months to draw a proposal for a permanent peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians. The new proposal was dubbed "The Switzerland agreement".

WHAT A JOKE:

Read what Meron Benvenisti....a Rather LEFTIST THINKER says about that accord:

Virtual understandings

By Meron Benvenisti

"...the focus is on Article 6, Jerusalem.
A lot of effort was invested in its 13 clauses
and sub-clauses. The effort shows a desire to
demonstrate a level of knowledge and
sophistication that would "solve" the problem
of Jerusalem once and for all. But that effort
yielded inaccuracies and ignorance bordering on the ridiculous....

"...clause 9, which
promises the Palestinians right of access and
burial in the Greek-Orthodox cemetery on Mount
Zion and the Christian evangelical cemetery in
the German Colony? And why does "withdrawal to
June 4" grant the Palestinians Jaffa Gate, when
it was in the no-man's land until then? "...
"...Who will maintain the access road
to French Hill and Shuafat? And why is to
important to detail the access to the Mount of
Olives and Old City but not to Ramot and Gilo?"...

"...The "coordination" solutions proposed in the
document are neither satisfactory nor
implementable. "...

"...why give the Palestinians the
Christian Quarter and the Holy Sepulchre?
"...
"...It's a pretension bordering on conceit. Nobody
has the power to draft a multiarticle document
to end the conflict."...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/352801.html

Pretty harsh words. If this ain't a Eulogy, what is?

[Jorge]

Reg., Meron Benvenisti's criticisms of the "Geneva Accord" quoted by Noam ( #47):
Mr. Benvenisti's views regarding Jerusalem merit serious consideration by the persons that wrote the Geneva document; he's a man of standing intellectual integrity and who, over the years, has been involved with the problems of both the jewish and arab populations of Jerusalem. Indeed, MK A. Mitzna said yesterday in a TV program that the signatories of the agreement will attentively discuss his criticisms concerning Jerusalem.

There is however in Benvenisti's article another, more general, criticism about the conceptions behind the Geneva Agreement. I quote:

There was no need for all those details since
the opening of the document is a wonderful text
encompassing all the ideals of
Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation, and it
deserves to stand on its own as a declaration
of intentions that the masses could identify
with. But the initiator of the
"understandings," Yossi Beilin, has been
imprisoned for years in the concept of a
"permanent agreement," insisting on proving
that he has the power to draft a text that will
formulate a model for an end to the conflict
and deal with every aspect of the lethal
confrontation.

The question of a permanent agreement , versus a stage by stage agreement is a concept very much in dispute inside the so called "Peace Camp". Proponents of the latter, (examples of which are the Oslo agreements ), are of the opinion that points which are bound to be too thorny to tackle now, like Jerusalem or the return of refugees, should be left for a later date, once confidence building measures have been implemented. The rationale behind this approach is that a permanent or final agreement would involve protracted negotiations that would drag on for too long. One of the merits of the Geneva Accord, and by no means a small one, is that it arrived to a model of a detailed permanent agreement which may be acceptable to both parties of the conflict.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Yossi Beilin receives no salary from the EU or any other foreign entity.

are you sure?

I can believe that there is no formal salary, but indirectly. Most "peace" projects are co-financed by the EU or European states in one way or other, usually to the benefit of the leading figures.