I want to know more about the jewish religion

[Elena]

Well, in Spain I don´t know any jew an I have some questions.
The last week was one of the most importants celebrations of the christian religion, the commemoration of death of Christ. I know the christian version about the figure of Christ, It´s true that he was an historycal personage, but

I want know the jewish opinion about him, the official opinion of the jewish religion about him and maybe the personals opinions of jews about this question.
Another question
Is waiting the Jewish people the messias in the actuality? (I don´t know if is well write)

Has the jews and the christians the same god with different interpretations?

After the death of Christ, part of jew people support the new faith and create a new religion. I want to know the history that the jews that not accept the Christ ideas and the evolution of the jewish people and their thinks about the new religion in that early times.

Has the bibble and the Tora any relation or are completely differents?

I don´t have many faith in religion, but I´m very interested in the contrast between different religions and cultures

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Elena
I want know the jewish opinion about him, the official opinion of the jewish religion about him and maybe the personals opinions of jews about this question.

He was a Jewish heretic of a rabbinical student, quickly shunned by his teachers.

He was a nobody in his time. Paul was a great marketing man. Just imagine had he worked for Coca Cola today.

Another question
Is waiting the Jewish people the messias in the actuality? (I don´t know if is well write)

If your question is are we Jews waiting for the Messiah? Yes. Where did you think you Christians got the whole concept of messiah from in the first place. The original word in Hebrew is "Mashiach".

Belief in the coming of the Messiach is one of the pillared beliefs of Judaism. We should have copyrighted it. Just imagine the royalties we could have made!

Has the jews and the christians the same god with different interpretations?

That's a tough one. When speaking of Roman Catholicism, the answer is most probably a big no. The concepts of a trilogy, son of god or the divine in material form are totally heretical to Judaism. That's most probably true of Islam's opinion of Catholicism.

This herecy falls under the ban of idol worship and is forbidden by non-jews according to G-d's Noahide laws.

After the death of Christ, part of jew people support the new faith and create a new religion.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he have something like a whopping 120 Jews supporting him at the time? I suppose 2 Jews qualify as "part of the Jewish people". Oh well.

I want to know the history that the jews that not accept the Christ ideas and the evolution of the jewish people and their thinks about the new religion in that early times.

Christianity started off with the Romans as a pure pagan religion. It wasn't very attractive to any Jew who was serious in his beliefs.

Has the bibble and the Tora any relation or are completely differents?

This is just a question of semantics. In English, the word "bible" simply means to Jews the Torah (5 books of Moses), Prophets and Scriptures. To Christians, the word "bible" in English is the same thing plus the New Testament.

[Elena]

Thank you Jerusalem OH Jerusalem

I agree with you about this, the concepts of a trilogy and more things that the Vaticano says are very difficult to believe it.

[mani]

iam interested in learning abt Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism .

[b.scheller]

pentatuech is also used irreversibly with the term torah. it also refers to the first five books, sometimes called the books of moses. mainly due to his inspiration of the exodus and the possibility of him having written the genesis book...

which at this point is all speculation.

as for the rest, christianity is based off of Judaism.

which means that although the G-d is one and the same, it does not mean that the interpretation of his actions have always been similar.

Christians, due to bigotry, xenophobia and discrimination. Have always blamed the Jewish migrants on the death of Jesus. They justified their massacres as a reason that G-d wanted to punish his chosen people for killing "his son". As you can obviously tell by the passion of the christ, where one who already has antisemetic feelings may believe that the Jerusalamites, that in their belief summed up all Israelites at the time wanted the death of Jesus the messiah.

Although it has developed over the last two millenia of existance, the roots of christianity are the same. They stem back to Judaism, Abraham, his sons and the twelve tribes of Israel, just like Islam stems back to the concubine son of Abram/Abraham.

[scattergood]

Elena:

Well, in Spain I don´t know any jew an I have some questions.
The last week was one of the most importants celebrations of the christian religion, the commemoration of death of Christ. I know the christian version about the figure of Christ, It´s true that he was an historycal personage, but

I want know the jewish opinion about him, the official opinion of the jewish religion about him and maybe the personals opinions of jews about this question.

Elena, thanks for your open and heartfelt questions. You touch on some of the basic and most important questions between Christians and Jews. I will attempt to provide one persective in answering them, but as you will learn, when you ask a question of 3 Jews, you will get 5 answers .

When you ask about 'official' opinion of Jesus, it gets a bit complicated. Do you mean Reform, Conservative, Modern Orthodox, Chassidic Orthodox, Reconstructionist? Each group has varying opinions of him. But basically it comes down to:

1) He was Jewish.
2) He was a learned Jew (varying depending on who you talk to).
3) He was fighting with the Pharisees and Sadducees to inspire them to be less corrupt in following the Law (the laws of Judaism) and to unite as a nation under the yoke of Roman occupation.
4) The powers that be felt threatened by him.
5) The people in general weren't attracted to his message, only a small fringe group.

However now, Jesus isn't looked upon too favorably. Mainly because of what was done in his name to the Jews. Because, once Paul rejected the notion that Christains needed to be Jewish and follow Jewish law, non-Jews became Christians with little or no understanding of Jews and Judaism. It is easy to then objectify and degrade the Jews for any number of reasons. Obviously, dieicide is one that is used. So is saving our souls because we know better. The slaughters by Christians of Jews in Spain, France, England, Germany, Poland, Italy, Russia, Israel during the Crusades is well documented. It is this 2000 year history of blame, subjugation, and murder that makes Jews wary of Christian motives. It wasn't unil what the 1980's that Jews were no longer blamed for killing Jesus officially by the Vatican?

Elena:

Another question
Is waiting the Jewish people the messias in the actuality? (I don´t know if is well write)

There is much debate on this subject, like what does the Messiah look like, is he or she God or a holy person. But the short answer is yes, Jews are waiting for the Messiah, likely there will be two one who is a uniter of the Jews as a nation and a second who is a uniter of Jews spiritually, but this is up for much debate. It is also likely that the Messiah is NOT G-d, but just a very, very holy and powerful human.

Elena:

Has the jews and the christians the same god with different interpretations?

From a Christian perspective, yes it is the same G-d. From a Jewish perspective, no it isn't. The trinity, access of G-d through faith alone, personification of G-d in a man, the praying to a cross, or madonna, all make it a different diety.

Elena:

After the death of Christ, part of jew people support the new faith and create a new religion. I want to know the history that the jews that not accept the Christ ideas and the evolution of the jewish people and their thinks about the new religion in that early times.

To be honest, there wasn't much thought about Christianity in the few hundred years after Jesus' death. It wasn't until 350's when Constatine made Christianity the official relegion of the Roman empire and the religion started to become the power of the government.

At best before that Jews thought Christianity a strange morphing of Judaism for non-Jews. It was seen as an abberation and a departure from the teachings of the Torah.

Elena:

Has the bibble and the Tora any relation or are completely differents?

This may be the most important question. Before we get into it, let's define some terms:

1) Torah--Most narrowly defined this is the scroll of the first 5 Books of the Hebrew Bible, also known as the Pentatuch or 5 Books.
2) Bible--I am going to use this to mean the Christian Bible irrespective of version (King James, New Invitational, Catholic, etc.). This book is made up of the Old Testament and the New Testament as sections.
3) Hebrew Bible--This is the collection of the Torah, the Nevim or Prophetic Writings (Isiah, Micah, etc.) , and Ketuvim or Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, etc.)

So now, what is the relationship between these books:

Well first of all, the Bible used by Chrisitians is made up of a reordered Hebrew Bible for the Old Testament and a New Testament that Jews don't recognize. The first 5 books of the Old Testament are in the same order as the Torah, but after that it gets strange. The Hebrew Bible ends with Chronicles II, but the Chrisitian Old Testament ends with a prophet who discusses the coming of the the Messiah...neat trick to be an intro into the New Testament of the Messiah.

Second, most translations of the Old Testament are based on a Greek translation of the Hebrew Torah (the Septurgiat, sorry for the spelling). A Greek ruler of Egypt demanded that 70 Torah experts and Rabbi's translate the Torah independently into Greek and that is what they got. This translation was then translated into Latin, and then English or German, or what ever other language. This has caused some significant issues. For example, the Hebrew Bible reads in the 10 Commandments: You shall not murder. The Christian Bible reads the same passage as: You shall not kill. Given the Christian emphasis in their liturgy on love and compassion, this translation difference makes sense (not withstanding their violent avoidance of this commandment when it comes to non-Christians until recenlty). There are many other subtle but important differences.

So my conclusion is NO, the Torah and Hebrew Bible are very different than what people would commonly call the Bible or Chirstian Bible.

Elena:

I don´t have many faith in religion, but I´m very interested in the contrast between different religions and cultures

I am too and there are many, many differences and books on the subject. Some that I might recommend are:

Why the Jews rejected Jesus
Religions of the Early Roman Empire
A Jewish View of the New Testament.

I hope that the above helps and I look forward to comments and additional conversations on the subject.

[Womble]

Well, in Spain I don´t know any jew an I have some questions.
The last week was one of the most importants celebrations of the christian religion, the commemoration of death of Christ. I know the christian version about the figure of Christ, It´s true that he was an historycal personage, but

I want know the jewish opinion about him, the official opinion of the jewish religion about him and maybe the personals opinions of jews about this question.

Check out this website, it explains the Jewish concept of the Messiah and its difference from the Christian one. Be sure to read other pages, not just the one I am directly linking to.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/fa...hresponse.html

Another question
Is waiting the Jewish people the messias in the actuality? (I don´t know if is well write)

I don't quite understand a question

Has the jews and the christians the same god with different interpretations?

Not if you regard Jesus as God. However, if you mean what Christians call "God the Father"- then yes.

After the death of Christ, part of jew people support the new faith and create a new religion. I want to know the history that the jews that not accept the Christ ideas and the evolution of the jewish people and their thinks about the new religion in that early times.

That is a subject for a loooooooong historical research, sorry.

Has the bibble and the Tora any relation or are completely differents?

The first five books of the Christian Old Testament is a translation of what we call the Torah. However, the Christian translations have some serious distortions caused by the fact that the first ever translation of the Torah into Greek- the Septuagint- was flawed in its quality, yet became a standard for all further translations.

Now, mani, about Kabbala and Jewish Mysticism- it's a difficult one. Generally, if we take a proper Orthodox approach, to study those things you have to be over 40 years old, married and with children (it is believed that those who devote too much time to Kabbala may become too detached from reality and therefore need a strong linkage to it through family and life experience). There is, of course, many charlatans these days who offer to teach anyone Kabbala- like the guy who teaches Madonna, he is an obvious fraud. I am not much of an expert on the matter, all I can offer is this link:

http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm

[Mira]

That was a pretty darn good synopsis, scattergood. I always have such a hard time condensing a good response to these types of questions. Well Done! The only comment that I would make is about the following:

To be honest, there wasn't much thought about Christianity in the few hundred years after Jesus' death. It wasn't until 350's when Constatine made Christianity the official relegion of the Roman empire and the religion started to become the power of the government.

Actually, there was quite a polemic going on between the Jewish followers of Jesus and the rabbis. You can see examples of it throughout the talmud. Check this out:

When Rabbi Eliezer [the R. "hard-arse" Eliezer] was arrested [by the Romans] for sectarianism [Christianity], they took him up to the place of judgment. The judge said to him: "An elder such as you, has dealing with these foolish things?!" He [Eliezer] said: "I have trust in the J/judge." The judge thought that he was speaking about him, but he was speaking about his Father in heaven. He [the judge] said: "Since you have declared your faith in me, you are free [dimus]."

What is particularly interesting here is the way that R. Eliezer answered the question. He answered indirectly, so that his statement could be inferred to mean that his faith was in the Roman judge. At the time, it is believed that the way to defend against the charge was to curse Jesus. But R. Eliezer refused and instead used a grammatical "trick." Why?

When he came to his house, his disciples came to comfort him, but he was inconsolable. Rabbi Akiva said to him: "Allow me to say to you one of the things that you have taught me" [an honorific euphemism for the student teaching the teacher]. He said to him: "Say!" He said to him: "Rabbi, perhaps you heard some matter of sectarianism, and it gave you pleasure, and because of that you were arrested for sectarianism." He said: "By heaven, you have reminded me. Once I was walking in the upper market of Sephorris, and one of the disciples of Jesus the Nazarene, a man by the name of Jacob of Kefar Sekania, met up with me. He said to me, `It is written in your Torah: "Do not bring the wages of a prostitute or the proceeds of a dog [to the house of your Lord"] (Deut. 23:19). What about using them to build a latrine for the High Priest?' And I said nothing to him. And he told me that thus had taught Jesus his teacher: `"It was gathered from the wages of a prostitute, and to the wages of a prostitute it will return [Micah 1:7]" it comes from a place of filth, and to a place of filth it will return' [i.e. for building a latrine one may use the proceeds of a prostitute], and the matter gave me pleasure, and for that I was arrested for sectarianism, since I had violated that which is written: Keep her ways far away from you!" [Proverbs 5:8].

*****

Here is my link for the Jewish perspective on Christianity:

http://www.moshereiss.org/christianity.htm

It's long, so if you are going to skip most of it, I reccomend at least reading the part on Paul:

http://www.moshereiss.org/christiani...ul/05_paul.htm

[scattergood]

Interloper:

That was a pretty darn good synopsis, scattergood. I always have such a hard time condensing a good response to these types of questions. Well Done! The only comment that I would make is about the following:

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback and the comments.

Interloper:

Actually, there was quite a polemic going on between the Jewish followers of Jesus and the rabbis. You can see examples of it throughout the talmud. Check this out:

...

Yes you are right, there are references to Jesus scattered throughout the Talmud. But maybe the larger point I was trying to make and failed to do so was that the Jewish people as a whole didn't have much contact with Christians as a group and thus didn't have much to say about them or much opinion about them.

Even in the example you quote, the Roman was pitting one sect of Jews, the Rabinical Sect against another sect of Jews, the Christian Sect. After Constantine adopted Christianity, it became the motive power of the goverment, empire and society and thus the relationship between Jews and Christians changed.

But I do totally agree, that the relationship of Jews to Christians starts at the beginning of Christianity and is tangible in many forms such as the Talmud.

[KettleWhistle]

Here's my take:

I want know the jewish opinion about him, the official opinion of the jewish religion about him and maybe the personals opinions of jews about this question.

There are many negative opinions and Jewish writings about Jesus, but it is mostly due to our history of being persecuted by Christians.
As far as what Jesus, as opposed to Paul and Peter, is recoded to having said, it does not contradict common Jewish teachings or practices of the time. He was a practicing and faithful Jew, who fought against corruption within the religious establishment.

Another question
Is waiting the Jewish people the messias in the actuality? (I don´t know if is well write)

Has the jews and the christians the same god with different interpretations?

Yes and yes. Except Jews don't consider Jesus to be God, and don't have the doctrine of Trinity.

Has the bibble and the Tora any relation or are completely differents?

Torah is a large part of the Christian Old Testament.

[SteveK]

Hi Elena,

Since you are Christian, I highly recommend that you go to the forum at
www.thewaytozion.com. This forum is sponsored by a group of Christian Zionists and they can answer all your questions about the relationship of Christian beliefs to Jewish heritage. Jesus was a Jew, and the source of Christianity comes from Israel. Also, the Christian Zionists have great loyalty to the interests of the Jewish People and the State of Israel.

Both of us, Christian and Jew, worship the one God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The issues of God in the flesh, and His son Jesus, are of course extremely sensitive issues between Christians and Jews. However, you must understand that the Jewish People are commanded to worship God with absolutely no object or image relation to Him. Moses, himself, instructed this commandment through the Torah:

Deuteronomy 4:10 - 4:20

... the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horev, when the Lord said to me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children. And you came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire to the heart of heaven, with darkness , clouds, and thick darkness. And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire: you heard the voice of words, but saw no form; only a voice. ... Take therefore good heed to yourselves; for you saw no manner of form on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horev out of the midst of the fire: lest you become corrupt, and make a carved idol, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of any thing that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth; and lest thou lift up thy eyes to heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, thou shouldst be misled to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord the God has allotted to all the nations under the whole heaven. But the Lord has taken you, and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Mitzrayim, to be to him a people of inheritance, as you are this day.


Deuteronomy 13:2 - 13:5

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, of which he spoke to thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou has not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken to the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God puts you to the proof, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul..."

And, Elena, the Torah and the Prophets are the foundation to your faith of Christianity. Again, please check-out the Christian Zionist website at:
www.thewaytozion.com. Christian Zionists are making the effort to teach their own Christian brethern about their roots to Judaism and Israel.

As for the Jewish Messiah and the Christian Messiah, I wish it were as simple as just a "competition" between your "Joe (Jose'?) Smith" and our "Solly Goldstein". But, of course, the issue gets much much more complicated.

I must warn you that the forum at www.jewsforjudaism.com can get quite hostile toward belief in Jesus and especially Christian missionaries. So, I really advise you to get your beginning questions answered first through the Christian Zionist forum that I recommended. And, then perhaps venture back to discussing the issues with the Jews, and those Christians who have converted to Judaism.

I don't know about your comprehension in English, but another excellent site for Christian Zionists is at www.trumpetsounds.com.

As a Jew, I have made a personal effort to dialog with these Christian Zionists about issues concerning Judaism and Israel, and to better understand how we Jews and Christians can approach getting ourselves onto common Biblical ground.

[Mira]

Yes you are right, there are references to Jesus scattered throughout the Talmud. But maybe the larger point I was trying to make and failed to do so was that the Jewish people as a whole didn't have much contact with Christians as a group and thus didn't have much to say about them or much opinion about them.

Even in the example you quote, the Roman was pitting one sect of Jews, the Rabinical Sect against another sect of Jews, the Christian Sect. After Constantine adopted Christianity, it became the motive power of the goverment, empire and society and thus the relationship between Jews and Christians changed.

But I do totally agree, that the relationship of Jews to Christians starts at the beginning of Christianity and is tangible in many forms such as the Talmud.

Right..."Christianity," as in Pauline Christianity, which was adopted by Constantine and further refined by the The Council of Nicea (a sort of reenactment of Acts from the NT)...

...in contrast with the Nazarenes and Ebionites, the Jewish followers of Jesus, who from what we know continued to attend the same synagogues as other Jews.

[Leon]

iam interested in learning abt Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism .

Welcome Mani. this forum is predominatley a secular Jewish forum...where most of the people (including myself) dont really have a clue. I recommend that you and anyone else thats interested in Jewish mysticim try a more spiritual/religious forum

www.Israelforum.co.il or www.chabadtalk.com

[Mediocrates]

Does chabadtalk have anything to say about Qabbalah? Really? In either case there's Qabbalah and then there's Qabbalah. For someone who is interested in the the currently vogue Qabbalah w/o Judaism I'm sure there are local resources that can you with that. On the other hand, Qabbalah, the real kind is a course of study that follows an intense path. It is recommended for Jews over the age of 40 who are already knowledgable and secure in their own Judaism. I would check out the Judaica section of your local B+N or Borders and see what they have. If you are Jewish and are affiliated with a shul then I would contact your Rabbi or shul education director. There are also resources online but they are hit or miss.

[Ariksan]

The best thing if you are interested in real Kaballah is to study Kaballah in Tsfat (Safed) itself. If you are looking for sources on the internet your best choice is http://www.kabbalah.info.

Keep a massive distance from everything associated with Rabbi Berg and/or his "Kabballah Centre International" though - this is 'Micky Mouse'-Kaballah at best.