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Thread: Should America blame itself for the Muslim world's hatred?

  1. #1
    L@mplighterM
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    Should America blame itself for the Muslim world's hatred?

    Should America blame itself for the Muslim world's hatred?

    By Jonathan Tobin

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com | Even in a world where anti-Semitism is becoming increasingly accepted, occasionally someone can say something that shocks even the French. The speech of Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad at a meeting of a conference of Islamic countries last week contained so much blatant anti-Jewish bigotry that French President Jacques Chirac felt compelled to condemn it. To the applause of his fellow Muslim world leaders, Mahathir informed the world that it was being run "by the Jews." The Malaysian spiced this rather routine litany of anti-Semitic invective by going on to state that the Jews "invented … human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others."

    To his credit, President Bush made a point of personally refuting Mahathir's screed.

    It would be nice to think that Mahathir's speech was just the ravings of a nutty Malaysian. That appeared to be the spin the administration wanted to put on the affair. Even as she condemned Mahathir's words, National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice tempered that by saying, "I don't think they are emblematic of the Muslim world."

    WHAT 'MODERATES' THINK

    Perhaps Rice missed the fact that Ahmed Maher, foreign minister of Egypt, supposedly a U.S. ally, praised Mahathir's speech as "a very, very wise assessment." And Hamid Karzai, recently installed by the United States as the leader of Afghanistan, called it "very correct."


    And those were just the comments from the "moderates." Far from being unusual, this type of Jew-hatred has become typical in an Arab and Muslim world that has become the global producer of anti-Semitism. Jews and Americans have become the boogeymen of the Muslim imagination, filling heads with ready-made excuses for the failure of Muslim civilization to keep up with the West.

    This drivel has been hammered into the minds of young Muslims around the world in schools paid for by America's Saudi "allies."

    But, predictably, for some Americans the answer lies not in confronting the dementia that passes for wisdom in the Muslim world, but for America to change its policies. It didn't take long for such a suggestion to appear on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times. The author was Times columnist Paul Krugman, the Princeton economist who usually confines himself to rabidly partisan attacks on Bush's domestic policies.

    But on Oct. 21, Krugman told his readers that the Malaysian leader isn't really such a bad guy.

    In a piece titled "Listening to Mahathir," Krugman said that the bulk of the speech was an accurate depiction of Muslim problems. If he indulged in Jew-baiting, we should, Krugman said, understand he was just throwing his constituents "rhetorical red meat" as part of a "delicate balancing act aimed at domestic politics."


    In other words, Mahathir was no different from, say, a politician in the American South in the 1950s who had "progressive" views, but who ranted about the threat to white America from blacks in order to stay in office. Except, of course, that Krugman and the rest of 2003 America no longer believes that such balancing acts are either justified or defensible.

    BLAME IT ON US — AND ISRAEL

    According to Krugman, it really isn't Mahathir's fault that he has to say such nasty things. "The rising tide of anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism" is, according to this sage of Princeton, due to Bush's war in Iraq and "unconditional support for Ariel Sharon."


    Krugman's view is in line with the views of a State Department panel that recently toured the world trying to find out why Muslims don't like us. That panel — packed with anti-Israel academics — came back to tell us that America's bad image in the Muslim world was largely our own fault. They think that we should increase our efforts to make nice with Arabs and Muslims, and even rethink our foreign policy.


    And that always comes back to the same canard floated by Krugman — that support for Israel is at the heart of hostility to the West, and that if only W ashington would cut the Israelis loose, then Muslims wouldn't hate us or crash hijacked airliners into skyscrapers to get our attention.

    This sort of nonsense has been resisted by sensible elements of the Bush administration, which has focused on fighting terror, not rationalizing it. But that has also been accompanied by a willful blindness to the miasma of hate that pervades the Muslim world. Most statements coming out of Washington on this issue, like Rice's, are something between a prayer and a hope that if we ignore the problem, maybe it will just go away.

    Instead, maybe we should be telling Muslims that, contrary to Mahathir, they aren't being "humiliated" and "oppressed" by Israel. They are being humiliated and oppressed by their own leaders, and a culture that is hostile to those concepts of "human rights" that they claim the Jews invented to swindle them.

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/col...003_10_27.php3

    I’m beginning to think that the only moderate Muslims are the ones that are dead.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Yet I read last week in Jpost that Chirac blocked an EU effort to condemn the speech generally. Aparently it wasn't too shocking, merely in bad taste.


    No I think you should listen to the reaction you get. You would literally have to film a world leader eating the liver of a live Jewish child on TV to get anything concrete from world opinion and at that it would only be called 'shocking' and 'provocative' which are the same words used by the same press to describe the everyday lives of Jews in YESHA.


    I think you can expect in the next 4-7 years an actual, back from the middle ages Jewish expulsion from at least one EU state. It will probably arise out of a pogrom the country ignores and then that country will 'offer' a few thousands of euros to 'relocate' those Jews to Israel or 'anywhere else including the south pole of the moon'.

    We are already beginning to see the first signs of religious interference in domestic affairs. In Spain the Catholic church can hire and fire state employees in the education system as part of their control of the required religious training that children receive (source: NPR). In France the muslim authorities are attempting to overturn a 1909 national law that blocks state funding to religious institutions. Also it bars the wearing of kippah by teachers yet Islamic women are successfully fighting to preserve their hijab.

    Sometimes I think that apart from the US and perhaps Canada, Australia and South Africa, the Jews are being herded into a pen for the final solution.

  3. #3
    danholo
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    Originally posted by Mediocrates

    Sometimes I think that apart from the US and perhaps Canada, Australia and South Africa, the Jews are being herded into a pen for the final solution.
    I can tell you that you are not totally alone with your thoughts. Antisemitism in Europe especially is getting so out of hand that I'd just advise every Jew to get the f@#$ out. I'm getting annoyed at the thought that I have to go there (to Finland) and serve in the army. Well Finland isn't that bad though but it's starting to follow the lead unfortunately.

  4. #4
    Enuff
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    Originally posted by Mediocrates
    Sometimes I think that apart from the US and perhaps Canada, Australia and South Africa, the Jews are being herded into a pen for the final solution.
    You may want to scratch the Australians from that list Med. Here’s an interesting article I stumbled across recently, I personally haven’t confirmed what the islamic immigration or birth rates are in Oz are…maybe someone else knows? It would tend to confirm the fears and sentiment you see spewed by their press.

    When Australia is Islamic

  5. #5
    RichardP
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    Originally posted by Enuff
    You may want to scratch the Australians from that list Med. Here’s an interesting article I stumbled across recently, I personally haven’t confirmed what the islamic immigration or birth rates are in Oz are…maybe someone else knows? It would tend to confirm the fears and sentiment you see spewed by their press.

    When Australia is Islamic
    Being a ‘citizen’ of the soon, to be designated, honorary Islam nation “Canuckistan”; I can confirm your suspicions and fears, Mediocrates. Very soon, I will be seeking political asylum in one of the few remaining democracies… if they, too, still exist!

  6. #6
    cerulean
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    Originally posted by danholo
    I can tell you that you are not totally alone with your thoughts. Antisemitism in Europe especially is getting so out of hand that I'd just advise every Jew to get the f@#$ out. I'm getting annoyed at the thought that I have to go there (to Finland) and serve in the army. Well Finland isn't that bad though but it's starting to follow the lead unfortunately.
    Do you have to go (back) to Finland to serve? I think you have US citizenship too, from what you've said, and no doubt qualify for Israeli citizenship. I don't mean to interfere or pry, but if you don't want to go to Finland, perhaps you can find a legal way around the situation.

  7. #7
    Da Chuckstar
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    Originally posted by Enuff
    You may want to scratch the Australians from that list Med. Here’s an interesting article I stumbled across recently, I personally haven’t confirmed what the islamic immigration or birth rates are in Oz are…maybe someone else knows? It would tend to confirm the fears and sentiment you see spewed by their press.

    When Australia is Islamic
    Absolute utter rubbish. Who is the crackpot who wrote that article? I mean seriously, what exactly is that article supposed to prove? What Australia would be like if we were in the Twilight Zone?

    Muslims only make up 2% of Australia's population (the Jewish population is 0.5%). And Australians have very low tolerance for foreigners coming into our country and behaving badly. Unlike France, we are not spineless cowards who will just let minority groups corrupt our society.

    Australia is one of the few true friends that Israel has. Our Prime Minister is very pro-Israel and has visited the country three times. Also whenever the United Nations passes a General Assembly resolution condemning Israel, Australia does not vote in favour of it.

    I suggest you read this article:

    http://www.aijac.org.au/events-promo...oward-ajc.html
    Last edited by Da Chuckstar; 10-28-2003 at 01:59 AM.

  8. #8
    andak01
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    I suggest you all get a grip. If enough people believe in dragons or UFOs, there will be sightings, and people will even be abducted. Right now, the job is to stop Muslims from seeing a chimera of world jihad and to stop the rest of the world from conjuring up a Crusade against a jihad that doesn't exist. If you start treating the symptoms in a way that only proves to the other side that their assumptions are correct, this whole thing is going to snowball.

  9. #9
    L@mplighterM
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    Originally posted by andak01
    I suggest you all get a grip. If enough people believe in dragons or UFOs, there will be sightings, and people will even be abducted. Right now, the job is to stop Muslims from seeing a chimera of world jihad and to stop the rest of the world from conjuring up a Crusade against a jihad that doesn't exist. If you start treating the symptoms in a way that only proves to the other side that their assumptions are correct, this whole thing is going to snowball.
    I think that a Jihad Crusade does exist and guys like you are paid by some Islamic Foundation or other to make people think that it doesn’t. That’s whitewashing!

  10. #10
    minusthejihad
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    Originally posted by andak01
    I suggest you all get a grip. If enough people believe in dragons or UFOs, there will be sightings, and people will even be abducted. Right now, the job is to stop Muslims from seeing a chimera of world jihad and to stop the rest of the world from conjuring up a Crusade against a jihad that doesn't exist. If you start treating the symptoms in a way that only proves to the other side that their assumptions are correct, this whole thing is going to snowball.
    Andak, I believe you have good intentions, but if you really believe that there is no worldwide "jihad" happening, than I think you to be naive or a fool. Sorry.

    To me, you sound like many Germans years before the Holocaust, complaining about Jewish paranoia. Open your eyes and you will see that while Muslims have 52 nations where they can safely live, find me one where Jews aren't constantly being attacked. Sure, its easy for you to remain calm, but the only reason Jews have survived this long is because we "always watch our back".

    To tell us now that we are "making things up" or "crying wolf" is disengenuous and I'd start to agree that you truely are here to whitewash Islam and the non-existent jihad going on.

    P.S. I love how your religion of peace kicked off the holy month of Ramadan with some nice shelling of Israel's northern border. Real peaceful and holy!

  11. #11
    andak01
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    Originally posted by minusthejihad
    P.S. I love how your religion of peace kicked off the holy month of Ramadan with some nice shelling of Israel's northern border. Real peaceful and holy!
    Yeah. I already got that when I wished you all peace. Imagine if somebody slapped you everytime you offer to shake their hand. I'm a very patient man, and shaking hands, not blowing up buildings is the right thing to do. So you just keep up your slapping and I'll keep on shaking your hand and turning the other cheek. Best wishes.

  12. #12
    Batman
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    Originally posted by andak01
    Yeah. I already got that when I wished you all peace. Imagine if somebody slapped you everytime you offer to shake their hand. I'm a very patient man, and shaking hands, not blowing up buildings is the right thing to do. So you just keep up your slapping and I'll keep on shaking your hand and turning the other cheek. Best wishes.
    what will you say when your child asks you about Islam believers blowing up Jews in Israel ?

  13. #13
    andak01
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    What do you think??? Do you think it is impingient upon me to teach my child to be a suicide martyr??? God, that's disgusting.

    I could point her to Quranic verses and Hadith that validate the Jewish religion and that show acts of kindness that the Prophet (SAW) committed. I will teach her that it is her duty to honor the memory of Abraham (SAW), Moses (SAW) and other Jewish prophets, to respect the Torah and to respect those Jews that follow it. And for those who have lost their faith, she should tolerate them, but not emulate them.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    I think that interposing personal psychologies on any attacks that occur near or during Ramadan is naive. I believe that the recent escalations, from attacking military targets, to infrastructure, to religious leaders, to NGOs and now the Red Crescent Society are intended not to drive out the US but to marginalize the US.

    What I mean is that this pressure to attack completely disinterested civilan third parties seems to be an overt attempt to destabilize Iraqi society and foment civil war. Once that occurs the US may simply declare victory and go home. We already see some of that in Afghanistan. Then the field is open to all comers - in this case setting up a confrontation between Sunni and Shiite groups vying for control. My guess is that if the Shiites lose they are more or less back where they started during Saddam and if they win we will see a reign of terror that claims a million souls. In either case the Kurds get it from both whomever is in control in Iraq and from the Turks who will see a civil war in Iraq as convenient cover to solve their "Kurdish Question" if you know what I mean.

    Color me cynical but if this creates a half million deaths and a million-5 refugees the civilized world will only respond in so far as it moves their own antiAmerican agenda forward.

    Anyway - it's either interesting or sad that our own antiwar contingent in the US seems oblivious to the murder of Iraqis as opposed to using US servcepersons' death as a handy prop to scream for a complete pullout for 'peace'. It's the same kind of peace they envisage Hamas waging against Israel.

  15. #15
    ibrodsky
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    Originally posted by andak01
    What do you think??? Do you think it is impingient upon me to teach my child to be a suicide martyr??? God, that's disgusting.

    I could point her to Quranic verses and Hadith that validate the Jewish religion and that show acts of kindness that the Prophet (SAW) committed. I will teach her that it is her duty to honor the memory of Abraham (SAW), Moses (SAW) and other Jewish prophets, to respect the Torah and to respect those Jews that follow it. And for those who have lost their faith, she should tolerate them, but not emulate them.
    We appreciate the fact that you do not share the Jew-hatred that is rampant in the Muslim world.

    Surely you are aware of how many contemporary Muslims interpret the relationship between Islam and the Jews. They believe that Jews went astray, arrogantly believing themselves to be "chosen." Many even claim Jews altered the Torah. Thus, to many Muslims Moses is to be revered while the Jews of today are the "sons of monkeys and pigs" into which their ancestors were transformed as punishment for their alleged transgressions.

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