My Friend who's going to Hell

andak01 · 11-03-2003, 06:36 AM

Almost everyday at work I eat lunch with the same guy. He is a fundamentalist Christian and, as you know, I am Muslim. He thinks I am going to Hell and I think he is going to Hell, but we don't spend much time talking about that. We talk about our families and our jobs and occasionally about faith and the power of God. On that much we are in agreement, that there is a creator and we are His creation.

We laugh and joke a lot and this weekend, he and his wife are invited to break the fast with us in this month of Ramadan. I think the world of him, I respect him, think of him as a good man. But he is going to Hell. And ask him, he'll say the same of me.

The moral of this story is that life is too short to spend pushing people out of our lives for this reason or for that. We have to get along and respect each other despite our differences. For all he knows, I might be right. For all I know, he might be too.

**Mediocrates** · 11-03-2003, 07:13 AM

You're both right.

andak01 · 11-03-2003, 07:20 AM

Somebody else that thinks we're going to Hell. Mosel Tov!

ibrodsky · 11-03-2003, 08:38 AM

You are all wrong.

At the least, you think you know something you can't *know* but only believe.

I am not impressed by a Muslim and Christian who believe the other is going to Hell but are friends. You either don't believe the other is going to Hell, or you really aren't friends.

If you truly believe someone has done something so terrible that they deserve to be punished for eternity, why would you want to be friends with such a person?

andak01 · 11-03-2003, 10:40 AM

If you truly believe someone has done something so terrible that they deserve to be punished for eternity, why would you want to be friends with such a person?

Because, from his perspective, what I have done evil amounts to not accepting Jesus as my God and savior. And from my perspective, what he has done is to elevate Jesus to God. Each of us would, on some level, like for the other to come around. But we don't obsess about it. That's only one facet of who we are. And we don't concentrate on our differences or spend our time looking for weaknesses.

D.Abraham · 11-03-2003, 10:41 AM

Somebody else that thinks we're going to Hell. Mosel Tov!

Very funny....!

Andak,

Well, did you ever think hell might exist right here on earth in the present as well as the past? None of us can be certain of what lyes beyond the grave. Though many have had visions or near death experiences that may reveal some possibilities for some.
Cool you guys hit it off. I think that is great But hey, maybe it's time to decipher hell is here waiting for some individuals in the present.

andak01 · 11-03-2003, 10:47 AM

My point is, we don't know anyway. I can't know what is in his heart or what God's mercy has in store for him, nor he me. Only God makes these judgements. If we read about who is destined for Heaven or Hell, we should take it as a guidance for OURSELVES, not as a prescription for everyone else.

D.Abraham · 11-03-2003, 10:55 AM

Yes sir! Good advice.

Now where was I,..... am I going to hell or heaven....hmmmmm maybe I should flip a coin?

ibrodsky · 11-03-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by andak01
Because, from his perspective, what I have done evil amounts to not accepting Jesus as my God and savior. And from my perspective, what he has done is to elevate Jesus to God. Each of us would, on some level, like for the other to come around. But we don't obsess about it. That's only one facet of who we are. And we don't concentrate on our differences or spend our time looking for weaknesses.

You didn't answer my question.

If you think he merits eternal punishment, why would you want to be friends with him?

Perhaps you both know deep inside that the official positions of your respective religions is absurd. If someone tries (and generaly succeeds) at being a good person, it seems unlikely that God is so petty as to consign them to eternity in Hell for picking the wrong set of rituals and holy books.

How do you know that the true religion isn't a combination of the best things that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bhuddism, and Hinduism have to offer?

ibrodsky · 11-03-2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by andak01
My point is, we don't know anyway. I can't know what is in his heart or what God's mercy has in store for him, nor he me. Only God makes these judgements. If we read about who is destined for Heaven or Hell, we should take it as a guidance for OURSELVES, not as a prescription for everyone else.

This is better, but only slightly.

It is my understanding that certain Christian sects firmly believe that those who reject Christianity are going to Hell. Likewise, it is my understanding that Muslims believe the same about those who reject Islam.

So which is it? Does Islam teach you that non-Muslims will go to Hell? Or does Islam teach you that non-Muslims will be judged individually just as Muslims?

Think of how much better it would be if Christians and Muslims simply believed that they can obtain good guidance from their own religion. Claiming that people who believe in different religions are destined for Hell is the first big step on the road to intolerance.

Frans_1 · 11-03-2003, 03:02 PM

You don't need to bother, if you are not the one deciding. Otherwise you have to go to see for yourself to find out.

andak01 · 11-04-2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
So which is it? Does Islam teach you that non-Muslims will go to Hell? Or does Islam teach you that non-Muslims will be judged individually just as Muslims?

There are serveral different interpretations from both sides.

Think of how much better it would be if Christians and Muslims simply believed that they can obtain good guidance from their own religion. Claiming that people who believe in different religions are destined for Hell is the first big step on the road to intolerance.

That has proven to be so, but certainly not in every case. I started this thread to show that disagreement doesn't necessarily lead to oppression or intolerance. I am tolerant enough to be friends with someone. But I wouldn't tolerate his beliefs in myself.

Canajew · 11-04-2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by andak01
Because, from his perspective, what I have done evil amounts to not accepting Jesus as my God and savior. And from my perspective, what he has done is to elevate Jesus to God. Each of us would, on some level, like for the other to come around. But we don't obsess about it. That's only one facet of who we are. And we don't concentrate on our differences or spend our time looking for weaknesses.

do either of you have any problems with the fact that your conception of god is unjust in that he will punish those who live their lives as good, productive citizens working for the betterment of humanity? What kind of god would punish (with an eternity in hell, no less) those who live their lives in accordance with the highest interpersonal moral principles?

You like this guy. you think he is a nice guy in every way except for the fact that he worships the same god as you but through a different medium and in a different way. And this is supposed to make it that he will necessarily burn in hell for eternity? Seems like you should start some sort of letter writing campaign to your god and see if he can't maybe relax the rules a bit. I mean, if god is such a good guy too he would surely understand, no?

Seems a bit ... egotistical for god to ingore all the real good or bad people do on earth and only focus on what they did FOR HIM, how subservient they were to his dictats and the like. And this seems to be a characteristic which is inconsistent with the perception of god that I typically observe. How to reconcile?

**Mediocrates** · 11-04-2003, 08:14 AM

How is any of this different from people believing that unbaptized babies are going to 'limbo'. I know lots of people who separate how they feel about people from how they feel about religious compliance. A friend of mine once told me I was going to hell and would be decapitated there for 7 years for not being born again.

I said "7 years? Damn I can do that, what else you got?"

Donna · 11-04-2003, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
How is any of this different from people believing that unbaptized babies are going to 'limbo'. I know lots of people who separate how they feel about people from how they feel about religious compliance. A friend of mine once told me I was going to hell and would be decapitated there for 7 years for not being born again.

I said "7 years? Damn I can do that, what else you got?"

What the...um...hell? That's a new one.