Home | I believe that his sort of phenomenon stems back from Arab or other Middle Eastern culture. Kurds are also known for their honor killings but you don't see Muslims from Western origin killing their children because of "honor" because there is no honor code in Western sociey. Pride is very important in the Middle East, except Israel, but not over here - this is what causes the phenomenon not Islam itself.
I think the operative word here is "man"... a man discovers his "woman" doing whatever (fill in your own details, folks) and the "man" kills or beats her. It's a "man" thing... in Islam, one never, if ever, hears of a woman murdering her "man". It still seems to me in Islam, it's a man vs woman issue... women are not equal but another possession a mere commodity. "Man" is at the top of the social heap, whilst women are to "honor and obey" or else.... and "else" is not a great alternative.Originally posted by andak01
Excuses for what? Anyone who commits such a crime deserves to be in prison or executed. That's exactly what we do in America when people rape and kill. That's what they have done in this case as well.
If a member of a religion commits such an attrocity, then the clergy should speak out against it. According to the article, that's what local Muslim clerics have done. So where am I making excuses.
"In this chaotic situation, every man who thinks he knows a little bit of the Quran thinks honor issues are supposed to be resolved by killing," says Shalhoub-Kevorkian, who adds that leading Muslim clerics in Jerusalem and Jordan have denounced such killings.
How can you condemn a society that condemns such things and imprisons the perpetrators? Don't we have honor killings in our own society when a man walks in on his wife with another man?
It was and is the "man" thing in most third world countries. In Latin America we have "machismo", and the police in this country used to turn a blind eye when someone's honor was at stake. I saw many examples of inequality among non-Muslim tribes in Africa, and the Indians still occasionally practice suti (ritual burning of widows).Originally posted by RichardP
I think the operative word here is "man"... a man discovers his "woman" doing whatever (fill in your own details, folks) and the "man" kills or beats her. It's a "man" thing... in Islam, one never, if ever, hears of a woman murdering her "man". It still seems to me in Islam, it's a man vs woman issue... women are not equal but another possession a mere commodity. "Man" is at the top of the social heap, whilst women are to "honor and obey" or else.... and "else" is not a great alternative.
Let me ask you about Orthodox Judaism. Do women and men have exactly the same rights?
http://www.myss.com/WorldReligions/Judaism12.asp
Those laws (halakhah) include separation of the sexes during worship, and other roles for women that are at odds with social changes sought by the women's movement.
Nevertheless, I believe that Islamic laws can and have been interpreted in a much different light than what we find today among extremists. There are some Islamic women's groups that have made efforts with some success to popularize such interpretations.
So true, Andak, these women are amazing... it's an interesting issue, which I would like to study further. It's complexities are far reaching... I must study it more before commenting further.Originally posted by andak01
It was and is the "man" thing in most third world countries. In Latin America we have "machismo", and the police in this country used to turn a blind eye when someone's honor was at stake. I saw many examples of inequality among non-Muslim tribes in Africa, and the Indians still occasionally practice suti (ritual burning of widows).
Let me ask you about Orthodox Judaism. Do women and men have exactly the same rights?
http://www.myss.com/WorldReligions/Judaism12.asp
Those laws (halakhah) include separation of the sexes during worship, and other roles for women that are at odds with social changes sought by the women's movement.
Nevertheless, I believe that Islamic laws can and have been interpreted in a much different light than what we find today among extremists. There are some Islamic women's groups that have made efforts with some success to popularize such interpretations.
Originally posted by andak01
Let me ask you about Orthodox Judaism. Do women and men have exactly the same rights?
Rights is a funny word. They certainly have different obligations.
There is one area that gets a little hinky and that's agunuth. Where a husband won't grant his wife a [religious] divorce nor will he live with her either. It's a limbo status. Many Rabbis are beginning to address it with specific pre-nups.
From the:Originally posted by andak01
Be my guest. If taken sufficiently out of context, there are passages that support just about everything.
Qur’an(Rodwell’s translation) Sura 4- Women
If any of your women be guilty of whoredom, then bring four witnesses
against them from among yourselves; and if they bear witness to the fact, shut
them up within their houses till death release them, or God make some way for
them.
4:20 And if two men among you commit the same crime, then punish them both;
but if they turn and amend, then let them be; for God is He who turneth,
Merciful!
Whoredom has a loose translation among Muslims, often in the case of rape it’s believed that it was consensual. Sharia Law also clearly states that four witnesses are required for a conviction.
You can argue that I’m taking it out of context until the cows come home!
4:15 (Yusef Ali translation)
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
OK, do you know what a witness is in a case such as this??? That's a witness to insertion (sorry to be graphic). That means four reliable, pious people happen to witness insertion. Which also means that exposure is not an accident. This amounts to having sex in a public place in front of lots of witnesses, not just nudity. And in a Sharia state, that level of disregard amounts to treason.
Even so, four witnesses are STILL required. Three won't do. The odds against this happening are such that we should expect less than one case in a century.
Whoredom is already a translation. But your conjecture that Muslims have a loose idea of the term is simply that. It does not come from Sharia. Neither does the concept that rape is concentual.Whoredom has a loose translation among Muslims, often in the case of rape it’s believed that it was consensual.
In this case, it's not the quote, so much as your commentary that are out of context. But, lest the readers think that Surah The Women is nothing but cruelty, a couple of other verses from that same Surah.You can argue that I’m taking it out of context until the cows come home!
4:19
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
4:20
But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?
4.1 ...reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
4:7
From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share.
4:9
Let those (disposing of an estate) have the same fear in their minds as they would have for their own if they had left a helpless family behind: Let them fear Allah, and speak words of appropriate (comfort).
True. The mother chose to kill her daughter, even though she was the victim, and not the brothers, who were the rapists.Originally posted by RichardP
IIt's a "man" thing... in Islam, one never, if ever, hears of a woman murdering her "man". It still seems to me in Islam, it's a man vs woman issue...
Posted by Andak01:
Let me ask you about Orthodox Judaism. Do women and men have exactly the same rights?
I don't know about Orthodox Judaism but from personal experience Jewish women definetly have more power then man.
I recall the case in Austria where the Muslim girl was going to marry a Christian and all the Muslims ( 99%+)referred to her as a whore, including her own parents. I cat quite recall whether they issued a fatwa against the girl but she was/is under police protection 24/7.Originally posted by andak01
4:15 (Yusef Ali translation)
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
OK, do you know what a witness is in a case such as this??? That's a witness to insertion (sorry to be graphic). That means four reliable, pious people happen to witness insertion. Which also means that exposure is not an accident. This amounts to having sex in a public place in front of lots of witnesses, not just nudity. And in a Sharia state, that level of disregard amounts to treason.
Even so, four witnesses are STILL required. Three won't do. The odds against this happening are such that we should expect less than one case in a century.
Whoredom is already a translation. But your conjecture that Muslims have a loose idea of the term is simply that. It does not come from Sharia. Neither does the concept that rape is concentual.
In this case, it's not the quote, so much as your commentary that are out of context. But, lest the readers think that Surah The Women is nothing but cruelty, a couple of other verses from that same Surah.
4:19
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
4:20
But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?
4.1 ...reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
4:7
From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,-a determinate share.
4:9
Let those (disposing of an estate) have the same fear in their minds as they would have for their own if they had left a helpless family behind: Let them fear Allah, and speak words of appropriate (comfort).
The fact is that it doesn’t take much to be lewd or a whore in many Islamic countries. Show a bit of skin, wear lipstick or enter a beauty contest and you’re a whore.
Snip:
Keerthi Reddy
Taliban: A Perfect Islamic Society
On July 16, 1998, the maggot ridden naked corpse of a woman caked with old blood was found in a ravaged back alley of Khairkhana, Kabul in Afghanistan. After hours of investigation, the post mortem revealed that the corpse belonged to a young woman named Shukria, the daughter of Ali Mardan. When she was alive, Shukriya used to take care of her family's tiny Tailor shop in addition to raising her four young children. Fifty five days earlier, on her way back from a religious ceremony Shukriya was startled to hear the screeching of brakes as a car spun to a halt in front of her. A gang of about seven Muslim holy warriors of the Taliban, who carried beards the length of which were in exact religious conformance with the Islamic scriptures, grabbed her and dragged her into their car.
The Taliban is comprised of Pakistanis and Afghanis who are considered the true "Mujahideen" or "holy warriors of Allah" because they have established a purely Islamic state which rigidly conforms to the "pious Muslim ideals" which were outlined and set down by Prophet Mohammed.
The piercing screams of Shukriya as she was gang raped by the holy warriors must have been muffled by the sound of the engine, for not a single passer by dared to protest the crime taking place in front of their eyes. Minutes later as her cries subsided, a thick and dark trail of blood slowly started dripping out of the drivers side door. Suddenly the car veered dangerously an drove off in the distance to an unknown location. No doubt mangled and violated body of a woman who just minutes ago was the mother of four young children and now a lifeless corpse, must have been unceremoniously dumped by the Mujahideen like yesterday's garbage, only to be found in its festering condition, fifty five days later.
But that's not what's shocking about this incident.
What's truly shocking about it is the fact that Shukriya's story is just one among thousands if not millions such similar stories. Amnesty International, the leading global Human Rights monitor, in its report on Afghan women declared that:
"Armed groups have massacred defenseless women in their homes, or have brutally beaten and raped them. Scores of young women have been abducted and then raped, taken as wives by commanders or sold into prostitution. Some have committed suicide to avoid such a fate. Scores of women have reportedly disappeared and several have been stoned to death. Many women are traumatized by the horrific abuses, they have suffered or witnessed."
So desperate is their situation that the majority of women prefer to die by consuming caustic soda or other household poisons. Western Aid workers in Afghanistan have reported a dramatic increase in the number of women committing suicide because they can no longer bear the country's stifling Islamic code. The mass phenomenon of Afghani women consuming caustic soda to put themselves out of their misery is shockingly common. The agony of their situation can be gleaned from the fact that consuming caustic soda results in a torturously painful and lingering death. First it burns away the throat, and then slowly the internal organs are burnt. It takes an average of three to four days to suffer out the symptoms, which are horribly traumatic.
Many Quranic Surahs exhort torturous punishment for "fornication prone" women. It is primarily due to this inherent disadvantage which weighs down Muslim women, that they fear for their very lives when they are the victim of rape. Instead of having the opportunity to bring the culprit to justice, these women spend the rest of their lives in fear that the deed will be discovered and that the victim herself will have to suffer the punishment for being an adulteress instead of the other way around.
Some of the Quranic Surahs which provide the basis for these type of heinous punishments on women are provided below. These verses have been taken verbatim from the translation of the Quran by the respected Muslim scholar, Abdullah Yusuf Ali.:
Quran 4:15
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
Here one must note that anybody can point the finger and accuse a woman of "lewdness" meaning illicit sex and all they have to do to seal the woman's horrendous treatment is to get four other witnesses to testify against her. In case of gang rapes, there have even been situations where one of the rapists accuses the woman of "lewdness" and four of the other rapists support this charge with their testimony, in which case by Islamic law, the woman has to suffer the punishment for adultery.
Quran 4:16
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
The law for Muslim men who indulge in "lewdness" however is quite different. As long as the men "repent and amend" they are to be let off completely. This is a blatant instance of women being denied the rights that men enjoy in Islam.
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoft...ddy/tapis.html
My, my you’ll have all the women flocking to Islam when they read how well they’d be treated.
Penetrate?
Why don’t you take a finger and penetrate your ear.
Woman Sentenced to 500 Lashes for Immoral Conduct
Staff Writer
JEDDAH, 18 November 2003 — A Jizan court has sentenced a young woman to 500 lashes for allegedly spending time alone with a young man and marrying him hours after divorcing her former husband, Al-Madinah reported on Sunday.
According to the court ruling, the groom will also get 500 lashes while the mazoun who married them will get 30 lashes for violating Shariah rules.
The woman was on bad terms with her former husband and entered into a romantic relationship with the young man. But under Shariah, she was required to wait for three months before marrying another man, the paper said.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§...tegory=Kingdom
Oxymoron alert of the day:
honor killing
More similar sayings or happenings that are backward:
Anti-war groups donating money to anti-US guerillas in Iraq
and
Islam is a Religion of Peace
MANY???? How many. ANY?Originally posted by L@mplighterM
[Many Quranic Surahs exhort torturous punishment for "fornication prone" women.
You have proven beyond a doubt that WITH FOUR WITNESSES to insertion, assuming she doesn't repent, in a Sharia state, if the woman is Muslim and she has sex in public, the Quran sentences her to seclusion for life. You don't have a word about how Sharia actually interprets that. You don't mention any hadiths or opinions on the verse.
Having read the Constitution doesn't qualify you to pass the bar. The laws are BASED upon it, not CONTAINED within it. Same goes for Sharia law and the Quran.
Would you care for me to trot out some laws about lewdness from the Tanakh?
Leviticus 20:9
For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
20:11
And the man that lieth with his father's wife--he hath uncovered his father's nakedness--both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:12
And if a man lie with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have wrought corruption; their blood shall be upon them.
20:13
And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
20:14
And if a man take with his wife also her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Andak01:
Let me ask you about Orthodox Judaism. Do women and men have exactly the same rights?
I don't know about Orthodox Judaism but from personal experience Jewish women definetly have more power then man.
Again, rights is a funny word, they certainly have different responsibilities.
The same is true in Islam. A man has responsibilities that a woman does not. For example, I am NEVER allowed to ask my wife to give me money or to work in order to support the family. If she does work, all the money she earns is her own. Whereas all of my money must be shared with her and the family. And my wife has no responsibility for a dowry. That is my responsibility to pay her a dowry that she decides of her own choice prior to the wedding.
But it is a normal weakness of people to point at everyone else's responsibilities without accepting their own.
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