Anti-Semitism or Criticism of Israel?

[NewsGuy]

This topic seems to come up often in many discussions.
Many Jews perceive most anti-Israel views as being based not on political opinions, but on underlying anti-Semitism in general.

Let's kick off this discussion with an excellent summary by ibordsky:

It's true some Jews hide behind the "anti-semitic" charge.

But it's also true that many anti-semites hide behind criticism of Israel. After centuries of persecuting Jews, nearly all of Europe now indulges in criticism of Israel. "Israel is racist." "Israel violates human rights." Gee, Israel is so bad it seems to absolve Europeans of their past misdeeds against Jews...

What do you think?

[Flame]

When criticism of Israel is based on opinion and not facts... and when those with these opinions are not interested in the facts... then yes... it is a form of "anti-semitism."

By what I've come to see at various message boards, those who criticize Israel are dead set in their opinions and not at all willing to look at the facts and the Big Picture.

Criticism of Israel.... yet these same critics have no interest in any other place on earth that have huge and serious human rights abuses going on... with staggering death tolls... yet the criticism of Israel alone continues.... yes, I find this hypocritical as well as form of veiled anti-semitism.

When people criticize Israel, they are criticizing Jews, plain and simple. I just don't see how it can be seperated.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Flame
When criticism of Israel is based on opinion and not facts...
...
When people criticize Israel, they are criticizing Jews, plain and simple. I just don't see how it can be seperated.

I don't think so.

People are entitled to have an anti-Israel opinion based on the facts the way they see the facts. That's not anti-Semitism, IMO.

I think that there is a big difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Israel sentiment. For example, many Israelis oppose the policies of the Israeli government and criticise it as much as many enemies of Israel, but the Israeli Left is no anti-Semitic of course.

[Flame]

But the Jews living in Israel have the facts to make their opinions with.

Do you ever see people go after Chinese people in America about China's politics? Do you see American's go after blacks individually because they disagree with jackson or farakan? When people discuss the priests that molest children and critize the vatican... no one ever feels like non-Catholics are bashing them personally... but criticizing Isreal usually is about not just the Jews of Israel but extends to disporia.

When the 2 IDF were slaughtered and the pals threw out their blood-covered hands in that photo... I was at a cafe at the moment unaware of the situation... this little nazi working there started screaming at me as if I was personally responcible... you murderer you're all murderers... it didn't seem to matter to him that it was the Jews who were slaughtered.

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

If in fact the Israel bashers criticsim was based on actual facts and not from propaganda, lies and distrotions, then fine... but all the conversations I hear sound more like pure Jew hate. Sorry to dissagree.

The arab world is one giant sea of Jew hate... if the focus was on their own dictators within their own nations, and not about Israel... do you think there would even be a reason for mass criticism of Israel? In all the talk I hear of Israel bashing... I not only hear silence about the crimes committed by arabs... but these people seem to feel that to say anything about the terrorists is a smear against islam and arabs... how can you have it both ways?

99% of arabs in the arab world have never met a Jew or been to Israel. And yet, Jerusalem is there's and the evil Jews are humiliating them.

As that old Jew jesus is noted as saying... those who are free of sin can cast the first stone... something like that.

[Gatorade]

I am not that informed about all this stuff but here is how I see it.

I think a distinction could be made between anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, and anti-Zionist.

Israel is a nation.
Zionism - not really sure what to make of it yet(still reading about it) but see it as a movement or idealogy
Jews are a people.

People can talk negatively about Israel and not be anti-Semitic. And many people who are anti-Semitic are against Israel but there is a distinciton in my mind.

If people over use the term anti-Semitic, it will lose its weight when it really is the case.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Flame

When the 2 IDF were slaughtered and the pals threw out their blood-covered hands in that photo... I was at a cafe at the moment unaware of the situation... this little nazi working there started screaming at me as if I was personally responcible... you murderer you're all murderers... it didn't seem to matter to him that it was the Jews who were slaughtered.

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

I recalled that incident very well and I was outraged when I watched soldiers being slaughtered (during or the aftermath can’t recall which) in the footage on CNN.

As I write now in the present the world is increasing its momentum with anti Israeli sentiment all the way from southern to the northern hemisphere. Israeli flags are being spat at in Australia and boycotts are being considered in Scandinavia. Never before in my living memory have I ever witnessed such outrage against Israel in so many nations.

I personally witnessed pro Palestinian persons handing out (perhaps selling them I was driving) newspapers. I saw the headline as I was stopped at a light (STOP ISRAEL).

There could only be ONE reason for this and that is that Israel has lost the war on words. I know that people have a short memory and can be manipulated like putty but this is not a positive sign for Israel. This time Israel has played right into the hands of Arafat he sits there and cries and the world jumps to is aid.

[cerulean]

It may be theoretically possible to oppose Israel and not be anti-Semitic, but I'm not sure it ever happens in practice.

One exception would be those ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups (such as the Satmer sect) that have the sincere belief that the founding of modern Israel was wrong (for various complex religious reasons that I would have to research again to make sure I was representing properly). I don't think they are anti-Semitic.

[L@mplighterM]

Interesting concept what are you a defense lawyer looking for a loophole or something?

Let’s say that you were colored and you hated yourself. Would you be a racist? My answer would be no.

What if you were a mulatto and you hated whites? Would you only be half racist? I’m not smart enough to answer that question.
What if you were ¼ white or 1/8th white? What then?


Back to your question could you oppose Israel and not be anti-Semitic?

If you were referring to the present I would say that you would not be anti-Semitic if you were a Jew that opposed Israel.

You would be a Jew that opposed Israel.

[muslim4israel2]

I criticise Israel incursions into Palestinian areas, I criticise Israel human rights abuses. But I'm not anti Israeli, or anti Jewish. I criticise Palestinain terror attacks, but I'm not anti Palestine.

Theres wrong on both sides, Israel is the regional power, and thus in the commanding position-thus gets the rap.

I'm just an objective analyst, who recognises Israels right to safety but criticises the methods.

The anti-semetic thing is used to death.

[General X]

Originally posted by Flame


Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

99% of arabs in the arab world have never met a Jew or been to Israel. And yet, Jerusalem is there's and the evil Jews are humiliating them.

As that old Jew jesus is noted as saying... those who are free of sin can cast the first stone... something like that.

Remember, though I wholeheartedly agree with you, that only about 70% of Arabs actually CAN go. Some are too old, too young, disabled, prohibited by law, can't afford to travel out of their Arab holes, etc.

The message boards question you had? That one is easy. Clearly, the forums are meant for discussion about Israel; though it is possible for it to be discussed, the primary focus is not on China, Russia, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Ukraine, Taiwan, Indonesia... and other countries. If a country relates to Israel, such as anti-semetic demonstrations occuring there and such, then it is bound to come up somewhere in the forums. So that is why the Israel bashers do their Israel bashing here, and not China bashers doing their China bashing. Of course, there is no problem with bringing up issues dealing with China to illustrate the hypocrtiscm, but most see that the intent of the forums was to discuss topics more pertinent to Israel. I agree with you, though, that china has a much worse Human Rights Record, and their army is known for brutalizing Buddhists and the Taiwanians. Israel is under scrutiny because of it's strategic and diplomatic location in relation to the enemies (and so-called friends) of the United States, and the oil producing axis. Europe has interests there as well. They figure, let the Chinese do whatever they want... it doesn't affect us so who gives a damn. It's not right, but that's human nature, although human nature does not give them an excuse for being so irrational. I hope I have sufficiently covered the question about the message boards, and I usually agree with you.

PS. Everyone: Watch Alan Keyes, he really does make sense, has an entertaining show, you KNOW he's a nice guy, and he knows Israel is behaving justly, or just as justly as any other nation.

[Mediocrates]

Here's what I believe:

NEVER forget you are a Jew. No one else will.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
This topic seems to come up often in many discussions.
Many Jews perceive most anti-Israel views as being based not on political opinions, but on underlying anti-Semitism in general.

What do you think?

Basically it's not the criticism as such, but the manner of it. Too aggressive, too joyous, too irrational. It just stinks. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that the Palestinians are real and not a modern-day version of the bloody matzohs. In my experience even Jews unconcerned with the Middle East issues tend to recognize the emotions underlying this "criticism", the trouble is that nobody seems to know how to deal with them. Trying to find some nice, easily recognizable, "logical" distinctions (yes, you can criticise this, but not that; yes, this term is legitimate, but please don't use that expression; etc.) is a waste of time. One can only trust one's own instincts. No amount of information materials, no efforts invested in hasbara campaigns would ever achieve the even the tiniest positive effect, because in the Western world "criticizing Israel" is simply a matter of having great fun.

[Mediocrates]

Never. While you may not know if the person you're speaking to is merely criticizing Israel or is some crypto anti Semite, who cares? Why give that person an entre? Why be coopted? Most of the literate world and large parts of the illiterate world wants to spit on the graves of all Jews. Why grace them with a cooperative discussion? There's plenty of support around for the Jew haters so they don't need mine.

Eventually we can all go back to being good old school socialist zionists and plant trees and dance. Right now the time is to be radical and pick up a gun.

[Mediocrates]

They can kill me or they can try.

[sharonbn]

What about Israelis who condemn Israeli actions? (like the soldiers who refuse to serve in the occupied territories)

Are they anti-semitic?