Israel risks losing the moral highground

[ThirdParty]

I am neither a Jew or Arab. But I am watching this conflict carefully because it has the potential to ignite the whole world.

Israel is at risk for gradually transforming itself into the monster it once abhored. The world once admired Israel-- the bravado demonstrated for example in the raid at Entebbe, the military prowess demonstrated in the Six Day War against Egypt, Syria and Jordan -- these were once applauded as testaments to the resolve of a persecuted people to ensure their own survival.

However now the manifestations of that same Israeli resolve increasingly appear to the world now as a purposeful and systematic oppression of another group... which at best borders on Apartheid, and at worst has frightening overtones of ethnic cleansing. The Israeli right wing, whether aligned with either Sharon, or Netanyahu's Lukid, has demonstrated that it's pretensions to peace have been false gestures designed to buy time until the Palestinian 'Right of Return' becomes irrelevant.

This irrelevancy will inevitably occur as Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza establish themselves and as the Palestinians-- by attrition -- simply no longer exist as a people. Sharon has recently publicly discussed the once unheard of topic of Palestinian "transference", ie. the physical removal of the entire Palestinian population out of the occupied territories, presumably to other Arab countries.

Media polls increasingly and disturbingly show a willingness of the Israeli public to consider Palestinian transference. This mirrors the German public opinion that allowed Nazi attrocities to occur.

The free world, indeed all peoples of conscience across the world, cannot and should not tolerate the threat to existence of an entire people. The Palestinians have the overwhelming support of the UN/ international community. The same way that the Jewish people, had the League of Nations full support in 1945-47.

[alexbmn]

the only times Jews occupied the moral high ground in the World's eyes, apparently, was when they were gassed in concentration camps. When they dare to defend themselves ooh well they are brutal aggressors.None ,none of the suicide bombing resulted in the kind of internation condemnations that Israel is the target of right now. A country must do anything to bring security to its civilians and in my opinion Israel has still been too soft.An overwhelmng total victory must be accmplished.

[Flame]

The people who hate Jews can't hate us more than they can... and I hate to say this.... but if they are trying to take us down again.... they will have to come with us this time.

The world has "lost respect" for Israel because of a very slick highly financed propaganda campaign brought to you by CNN - AOL/Time/Warner and all the other arab financed "news" orgs... and because of the oh so willing masses who feel cheated not to have a reason to loath Jews... allow themselves to believe the propaganda as truth. We really don't care what you think any more... the truth of what you think is just out in the open, again.

The EU the UN and all the other alphabet orgs are now calling for special meetings and creating all this drama over WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED 30 years ago.... this is a result of every nation on earth for not nipping the bud when it first poked up its ugly head. The meetings should have taken place 30 years ago. Terrosism should have been stomped out 30 years ago. The propaganda books that the arab children are raised on the the UN and US help to fund... is now flip floppiing back to Dr. Frankestin and Co.

I just don't hear anything from the Arab world saying they are actively going after terror orgs in their midst to help put out the raging islamic fires of hate.

Jew hate globally caused this... even though they point fingers at us for making them hate us???? This situation reminds me of when I used to get the crap knocked out of me and the perp was shouting for help with me in the corner unable to do anything.... then... guess who got in trouble? I looked angry... they took on the face of poor helpless me... sort of the same thing on a bigger scale.

[watcher]

Doesn't it seem strange when there are attacks upon Israel everyone is quiet and happy but when Israel responds to prevent further murderous aggression by these terrorists all of a sudden everyone is bad mouthing Israel stating Israel is a monster and perhaps ready to strap on bombs themselves and fly to Israel or think about flying into buildings of anyone who understands Israels plight with terrorism.

It doesn't seem too far fetched to imagine these supporters of terrorism to strap on the bombs or take aim at infants to support their cause of hatred because if you support terrorism you're no better than the terrorists themselves.

Take heed the side you choose... terrorism will falter, snipers will fall, all such wickedness will fade, and Israel will always remain. The unholy war will crumble at the foot of Israel. Truth and Love will overcome at the end, at the end Israel will Forever stand.

[sharonbn]

ThirdParty,

I am an Israeli Jew from the Left-wing.
I have great concern over the actions of Israel in the Palestinian territories. However, I would like to differentiate between the cause for the actions and the actions themselves.

I live in Tel Aviv and have family in Jerusalem. Every time I hear of another suicide bomber exploding in the streets of Jerusalem, I immediately phone my brother and parents to see if they're OK. When the attack occurs in Tel Aviv, they call me. Everyone in Israel behaves the same. Israelis nowadays live in constants fear where will the next bomb explode.

During the Passover holiday, the frequency of the terror attacks rose to two bomb attacks every day (not counting drive-by shootings, sniper shootings, Katyusha shelling, etc.) Arafat and the PA not only didn't do nothing to stop the attacks, they openly encouraged it. Recently discovered documents confirmed that Arafat is funding some of the terrorists groups. It has become clear to Israelis (and Jews around the world) that Arafat is not willing to stop the overwhelming wave of terror and hatred. In fact, the terror wave is part of a planned strategy of Arafat to provoke Israel into responding in such a way that will bring international condemnation. In other words, Arafat is willing to sacrifice the life of his own people for the sole purpose of scoring points in international public opinion. Under these circumstances, I feel Israel has the moral justification to enter PA territory for the purpose of decreasing the threat of terror.

Israel now understands that it can only rely upon its own force to defeat terror. Israeli army entered the PA territory in order to destroy the infrastructure of the terrorist groups. This includes the weapon storage houses, the workshops that manufacture the explosives, etc. Israel also seeks to seize or eliminate the heads of the terrorists groups in the same manner that US is pursuing Osama Bin-Laden.

Israelis, left and right, support the Israeli army. We all understand the reason for the latest incursion and we understand that there is absolutely no other way to defend our lives.

Now, in addition to what I stated above, I also believe that:

a) Over the course of history, The Palestinian people have suffered greatly as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Some of the suffering was caused by Israel. This is a historical fact that has not changed as a result of the latest terror wave. IMO, the Palestinian claim for independence and safe haven is justified. But the Ends does not justify the Means. No cause, however moral, can justify blowing up civilian people celebrating Passover in a Hotel, or people sitting in a cafe, etc. Indeed, such actions can only tarnish the morality of the Palestinian cause.

b) The same motto (The Ends does not justify the Means) should apply to the Israeli actions. The terrorists are seeking shelter inside the civilian population. They even entered Christian churches and holy places. This places the Israeli army in an extremely delicate situation. I believe that Israel needs to conduct its war against terrorism with full force but also with the utmost care not cause unnecessary casualties in the civilian population. In some cases, the feelings of anger and vengeance have caused Israeli soldiers to commit disgraceful acts against Palestinian civilians. Sick people and pregnant women were deliberately delayed in road blockades, civilian property was treated with disrespect, etc. I condemn such actions and believe that the soldiers who committed them should be brought to justice, so such actions will not be repeated. However, calling these actions "ethnic cleansing" is unjustified.

One more thing,
ThirdParty, You must understand that media coverage of the conflict is not objective, to say the least. For starters, coverage of the suicide attacks begins only after the attack is over, all you see is the cafe ruins and ambulances (you never see the casualties). The camera is also stationed in a distant position from the action. In contrast, the coverage in the PA territories is done in real time, while the tanks and troops engage in war. Usually, the camera brings close-ups of some Palestinian child or old woman crying. This tactics serve to distant the viewer from the Israeli suffering, and personalize the Palestinian one.

You need to extract the facts from the propaganda and manipulation and judge for yourself. If you do that, I believe you will realize who is the heartless terrorist psychopath with total disregard for human compassion, and who is responding to such actions by force, while trying to preserve high moral standards.

[Flame]

sharonbn,

How is it you hold Israel responcible for palestinian problems when Israel had nothing to do with defining the borders in the first place and that Palestine was divided 20% for Jews and 80% Jordan during a 20 year process by the League of Nations?

How is Israel responcible for their suffering when Arafat has never spent any of the billions given to him for "his" people... the so-called "occupied" territories are in fact ... Arafats ghetto.

Prior to Jews returning enmass after the nazi terror... did you know that arafats uncle the mufti worked closely with hitler to prevent Israel from ever happening in the first place?

Are you even aware of the popoulatons of the area back then that todays propaganda claims as one million?

What about all these attacks before occupation was even an issue?

============
an 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.
\Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.
June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.
June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.
June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.
June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.
Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.
Mar 17, 1954- Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.
Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.
Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.
Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house. Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction toMishmar Hanegev.There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person waskilled and three others wounded.
Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.
Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.
Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.
Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.
Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.
Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.
Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.
Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.
Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.
Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.
Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.
May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.
May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.
June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.
Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.
Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.
Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.
Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.
Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.
May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.
Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.
Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.
Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.
Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.
Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.
Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.
Sept 6, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.
Sept 8, 1959 - Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.
Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.
Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.
July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.
Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.
Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor.Tracks led into Syria.
July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.
July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

[ThirdParty]

I was not taking sides, only expressing concern over the enormous escalation of violence. And examining the root causes.

Speaking of propaganda, I live in Canada and am fortunate to get balanced news that I believe to be objective. When I follow the US media, I find it leans relatively pro-Israel, to the point where I believe some objectivity is lost. So who is suffering from propaganda? Me or you?

Canada has long ago adopted a multicultural policy (we respect all cultures and encourage co-existence) in distinct contrast to the American 'melting pot' (all cultures homogenize to become a singular 'American' culture). Canadians are generally a tolerant lot. I count Jews and Arabs among my friends, neighbors, coworkers. I have heard both sides of almost every argument. I sympathize with Israel in a very fundamental way: a historically persecuted people who are trying to live amidst a hostile Arab world. But there are lines that have been crossed, and to say "who cares what the world thinks" is a dangerous position. Israel is not an isolationist nation, it SHOULD care deeply about what the world thinks... and to act as if the world's perception is irrelevant is naive and ultimately bad for Israel.

The suicide bombings truly make me sick, the loss of innocent life on either side is intolerable. However, my impression is that Israel ignores the simple fact that these murderous acts are in response to the oppression and humiliation heaped on the Palestinians.

There is CAUSALITY here which is being ignored. The 'cause' is Israeli oppression/ refusal to leave what everyone else considers to be legitimate Palestinian land; the 'effect' is suicide bombings. This then becomes the new 'cause'... for which the 'effect' is Israeli military action. But the justification for this military action is less defensible when the 'cause' for this effect (ie. suicide bombings) is in reality an 'effect' of a more fundamental 'cause' (Israeli occupation).

Increasingly, I believe the world is afraid that Israel and Palestine are slowly abandoning the notion that they may live alongside one another peacefully. The repercussions of today's actions will likely continue for generations. One cannot hammer down the will of these people... they feel desperate and have nothing to lose. This type of 'will' is not exclusive to the Palestinians, it is a HUMAN trait, it is a mechanism for survival shared by all people. And the reality is that it can never be completely destroyed.

So Israel in order to find lasting security must do one of two things:
Israel must achieve a NEGOTIATED peace in which these people are given some dignity, OR Israel will have to kill every last Palestinian to achieve peace. Since the latter is out of the question, the former is the only solution.

[L@mplighterM]

The world will ignite eventually its in the nature of the beast. When one reads about the start and considers the growth of Islamic Fundamentalism it will happen one day if left unattended.

Should civilization wait to deal with the fanatics until they have gained enough strength to spread their ideals and force it upon all humanity?
At this point there’s little risk of this escalating into another WW and considering the gain from eradicating as many terrorists as possible I say go for it.
Less than a handful of strong men would have stopped Hitler in his tracks.
Less than a handful of strong men could eliminate Islamic Fundamentalism.

Pacifying evil has never worked force is the only tool it understands.

The world has never admired Israel even in the 1960’s Israelis had a popular song about the world hating it (can’t recall the title). This little country has always had to spill its blood to survive standing strong against its enemies.

I’m not certain that there would not be overwhelming support in the world community for the Palestinians if the facts were known. Support from within Muslim states is overwhelming but these people are uneducated and their awareness of the situation is limited to what they have been told.

It’s has been my observation that it has been mostly Muslims demonstrating against the current conflict.

I have never heard the entire world community demand that Israel turn over ALL the land that was occupied in 1967. Eventually that may be subject to arbitration through third parties. Israel is not refusing to turn over land to the Palestinians and as a matter most of the occupied land has been returned.

Arafat’s all or nothing attitude and ordered terrorist acts has been a major obstacle in negotiations. Further the occupied territories are supposed to be demilitarized and that is certainly not the case this is a violation of UN resolutions and the Tenet plan.

[Flame]

Lamplighter... you live in C... do you agree with JPD's take on news being slanted favoribly toward Israel? Does CNN have a more gentle version for C?

[raven]

Thanks Alex B. Im in my "call a spade a spade mode" and when this happens sometimes it is best for me NOT to write anything. But YOU said all I would have.

Same for you Lamp.

Same for you A.

AGAIN: What part of NEVER AGAIN is the world not getting?????

We got on the trains before, NOT THIS TIME!!!!!!!

[raven]

A.. you do such good homework and come up with relevant facts. I have to copy what you just wrote and keep it. THAT is a FILE that a person SHOULD KEEP.

Dont you think that Ignorant person...should appologize to us? Should appologize to everyone. The STATE DEPARTMENT makes Foreign Policy and she would not pay attention to this elemental political fact. It is NOT a good idea (less than a good idea...how bout a REALLY BAD IDEA )to support people for President that you KNOW... ARE essentially...the Antisemetic ( for a century or more) State Dept. Unbelievable.

Incidently, read Hogland's Column in the Wash. Post and you will find out how come the US wants Israel OUT of Rahmallah. Read back some of my posts dayssss ago. I could tell something was UP. Sounded like wooooo...conspiracy....talking...IT ISNT. Read the reality. Hogland is plugged into State/Cia/Nsa/Defense...He knows what he is talking about. I already knew it by the way the US started to respond and exactly WHEN they started to freak. They started to freak when Israel came upon D O C U M E N T S. What other documents were laying around? Duh.

[Flame]

A little scratch below the surface for a look-see of Ted Turner and Colin Powel (Raven this just shows the creeps who say you're nuts... that they are fools.)

http://www.mideasttruth.org/Articles/tedturner.htm

http://www.e-venthorizon.net/conspir...o_ben-ami.html


Should read this daily.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Week...o/20020121.htm

[L@mplighterM]

I have Satellite TV and I have access to many stations. I get the news from Mexico, Canada, Britain and many other countries. To say that Canadian news isn’t biased is BS at the very least. Listen to Canadian stations on the web. CNN is CNN no special broadcast on Canadian TV or on Mexican TV.

[raven]

Lamp: Im jealous. All I have is CNN right now and Flame only has Broadcast. Dang.

Flame; Theres more. Sometimes these so called agencies use journalists to leak the information. They want the information out there themselves, before the information is splashed onto the American Public. It sort of cushions the first blow and outrage. Then they will get another journalist to "spin" that this was all done with all sorts of good intentions and keeping the best in mind. Get it? Look for all sorts of articles spinning why America has propped up all sorts of Terrorists there. They-- all of a sudden wont be Terrorists. They will DEFINE them as something else. Thats why I say "Who is in Charge of Definitions?" It makes a difference who gets to define who is who and what is what.

Watch for the patterns. These are the same patterns you can find in behavior of the same people in the 1930's for G-d sakes. Im not kidding. Exactly the same.

[raven]

SHE needs to crawl on her hands and knees and BEG forgiveness--from the people blown away in the Terrorists attack. I see she is avoiding the subject and keying now on Powell. As IF....

WE WARNED THIS person. You would think someone with a good brain could have stopped a minute, put her other dislikes away, and use the good brain G-d gave her to think. This wasnt an unknown group of people. Just would NOT listen or her Ego was more important.

NOT....that I can promise it would have been too much different with the other candidate. Have to be honest about it. Cause...THE STATE DEPARTMENT makes Foreign Policy. Could and would Gore have resisted the natural anti Israel pressure from the State Dept/CIA/NSA/DEFENSE better than Bush. At least Gore wouldnt have had a FATHER sitting in the WH contracticing his policy IN FRONT OF HIM, on the PHONE to a Saudi Prince. GEEZ.

You DO KNOW by now that Powell is Prince Bandars BEST FRIEND. They are REALLY, really really....best friends. Do you know that we are quietly pulling OUT of Saudi Arabia. OUR BEST BUDDIES in the Mid EAST? They threw us out and to save face we are pretending we WANT to go somewhere else.

People think we forgot about Turner. We didnt. As for Amapour. Right on the money and I think that there is even more to her than meets the eye. Years from now SEE if I am not right. Betcha. I just know it. Should have seen her last week before Bush called for the pull out. She was shaking with Fury at Israel. She could hardly get the report out of her antisemetic mouth. YES...she IS.