Israeli Commandos Refuse to Serve in W.Bank, Gaza

[sharonbn]

Israeli Commandos Refuse to Serve in W.Bank, Gaza
Sun December 21, 2003 02:59 PM ET

By Megan Goldin
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Thirteen fighters in Israel's most celebrated commando unit have publicly refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip because they believe the army's operations there are immoral, Israeli media reported.

The commandos announced their refusal to serve in a letter sent to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has come under increased pressure to halt efforts to quash a three-year-old Palestinian uprising and instead engage in peace treaty talks.

"We will no longer be party to an oppressive rule in the territories and the disregard for the human rights of millions of Palestinians," the 13 Sayeret Matkal reservist commandos wrote in their letter, according to local television stations.

"We will no longer be a defensive wall against settlements," added the letter, in a reference to Jewish settlements in lands Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war.

The Sayeret Matkal, or General Staff Reconnaissance Unit, is Israel's most elite commando unit and has often been compared to the U.S. military's Delta Force or the British army's SAS.

It has carried out some of the Israeli army's most daring missions including the rescuing of 106 passengers taken hostage by Palestinian guerrillas at Entebbe Airport in Uganda in 1976.

During the uprising, the Sayeret Matkal has been involved in raids to arrest senior Palestinian militant commanders behind a suicide bombing campaign against Israel.

The commandos' letter followed a petition earlier in the year from 27 air force pilots -- all but nine of whom had retired -- as refusing to carry out missions against Palestinian militants in which civilians could be killed.

The 13 signatories to the commando letter were all identified as being reservists, but it was not clear how many were still involved in active military duty.

Sharon's office declined to comment, but military officials described the letter as political, noting that it was sent to Sharon and not military commanders.

"It is very serious that reserve soldiers are using their military past and the name of the unit in which they served as a vehicle to publish their political views," an army spokesman said about the letter.

One of the signatories, identified as Zohar, told Channel One Television: "This is not a political letter...we spoke of the phenomena of occupation which corrupts."
The commandos' letter joined the pilots' letter as the most high-profile acts of defiance by members of the armed forces since the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, when a tank brigade commander resigned rather than invade Beirut, after saying he saw children through his field glasses.

Some of Israel's top military and political figures served in the Sayeret Matkal, including former prime ministers Ehud Barak and Benjamin Netanyahu, whose elder brother was killed in the Entebbe rescue operation.

Israeli television stations said it was likely that those signatories still in active service would be dismissed from the unit. The air force removed the nine combat pilots still in active duty after they signed their protest letter in September.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...0&pageNumber=0

[danholo]

Why do some Israelis deny their right to self-defense? How is thwarting suicide murder and other forms of terror "immoral"?

[Noam]

Originally posted by danholo
Why do some Israelis deny their right to self-defense? How is thwarting suicide murder and other forms of terror "immoral"?

It is a Jewish Gene (or DNA)
Jews thrive on Mahloket (the whole Gemara and Socrates dialogue is based on Mahloket).

In the desert--the whole generation that did not believe in G-d's promise to Abraham and the destination of Israel as the Home of the Jews--had to DIE IN THE DESERT

Today we have same doubters and refusinks who think that the ARabs have full right to annihilate us.

Well, as long as they are a minority--we are safe.

Once they get majority--OFF to New York we go.

[sharonbn]

Today at lunch, one of my colleagues spoke of his experience as a young soldier in the first intifadah. He was stationed in Gebalia refugee camp. He says that when they went on patrol, some soldiers took cans of benzene. They would enter a house, remove the inhabitants, take all the clothing and linen and gather them in a pile in the living room, pour the benzene and light it. The house would naturally burn down. this ritual was performed every now and then.
When they patrolled the market, they would take fruits and vegetables without paying. If someone protested, they would turn over his stand.
When they caught a stone thrower they would play a game with him: ask him if he's right or left handed and then break both his arms (my colleague said that he heard Rabin tell them "to break the Pals' arms and legs").
There were more stories about arbitrary cruelty in road blocks and patrols.

I myself never served in the occupied territories, so if someone wishes to dispute these stories I cannot defend them and everyone has to make their own opinion about this second hand information. It is my belief that the point the refusniks make is that IDF day-to-day presence and operation in the occupied territories is not just self defense. They say that phenomena like the ones described above occur more frequently than civilians know. That many times acts of random cruelty are hushed by a code of friendship among soldiers and the public rarely get the real picture of what happens in these places. This is what they mean when they say that "the occupation corrupts."

I myself believe that the refusniks should be court marshaled and put behind bars. this is the legal aspect of the case. I also believe that the public should not view the refusniks as traitors or cowards. They are not trying to evade their military service and they are not trying to "aid" the Pal cause. They are trying to convey a message about moral and practical problems that exist for men who serve in the occupied territories. I believe It would be a mistake to overlook that message and sweep the problems under the rug. The Israeli public and the political leaders should engage in an open discussion about the roots of the phenomena of the refusniks. I don't know how the outcome of that discussion would turn out, but I do know such a discussion is yet to take place.

[Mediocrates]

No you make too much of this 'phenomenon'. It is simply put, a command and manpower management failure. It is not the soldiers who are the problem but their commanders.

[Kev]

Its one thing to have your beliefs, its another entirely to use them politically, whilst putting your fellow soldiers, country, at risk, let alone the risk of embarrassment.

I don't want to comment past this for I am not an Israel and I am sure that the Israelis who have served are far more qualified than I, but nevertheless, their grandstanding shouldn't ever be allowed.An example should be made of them, in order to prevent future soldiers from going the same route.


If those stores are true......I wouldnt dare comment upon them, for I dont feel that any war zone will deal with issues in a black and white manner and it is not for me to say for again, I havent been to war.

There will always be a few who cross the line but one shouldnt blacken the whole team because of a few.

[danholo]

It is obvious that the aforementioned behavior of the soldiers is totally reprehensible but it's up to the superiors and especially in the higher ranks to teach more moral behavior to the soldiers that are in the field. We know that Israelis don't really have that positive views of Arabs which is a problem. Wasn't just recently that the IDF made an educational CD which will be used in military classrooms in order to teach moral behavior to soldiers? This is an improvement and this sort of phenomena is bound to happen in progressive modern societies just like Israel. Israel has learned from its own mistakes and corrects them. Unfortunately these mistakes are used by anti-Semites and Israel haters to smear Israel for "proof" of the inherent evil that is Israel and Zionism.

[Communication]

Thanks, sharonbn. Life is much more complicated for Israelis than it is for Americans. We watch our wars on television and they look to us like video games. When I was in Israel, I was in a dialogue group between American and Israeli Jews. One Israeli guy shared a story with the rest of us about having performed military watch along a border area. Some Palestinians were crossing the field, heading towards the security area where he was stationed. One of the soldiers called out to stop and they kept approaching so he fired into the air. They didn't stop so he fired near them. They still didn't stop so he and the other soldier shot directly at them. They were on the other side of a fence. A couple hours went by and there was no movement. Then some Arabs came by and lifted the body of a woman up and took her out of the field. All the Americans acted very matter of factly about the situation and said, "You did what you had to do, the security situation..." He just looked at us and said, "But I killed this woman. She could have been a mother, I don't even know who she was." The Americans just kept on saying, "What could you have done differently? You did what you had to do. The security situation....you are in a war..." The Americans were right, of course, but it didn't change anything for this guy who could not seem to get off his conscience that he (or perhaps the other soldier) took a woman's life that day. The guy was in an incredible amount of pain and that much was very clear to me. Things are happening to us now (both American Jews and Israelis) and it's changing who we are. We have to deal with that.

[minusthejihad]

I just saw Harrison's Flowers last night about the Bosnia/Serbia/Croatia war (starring Adrian Brody and Andie McDowell) and all I can say is just be thankful that the even the IDF's worst aren't anywhere as inhumane, cruel, and criminal as those animals, especially the Serbs.

[alexbmn]

this is such ing . Ten years of Oslo leftist brainwashing has clearly infected many Israelis. Sayeret Matkal arent called to do the unpleasant tasks in the territories like policing roadblocks or searching civilians. When they are called up it is to eliminate terror chiefs which oppose Israel's existence.And this they consider immoral . Sayeret Matkal has hardly performed any operations in the last three years and since these people are in reserve they likely havent performed any operations at all. This is the same thing as the retired pilots. Even Sarid is against this . Why is it that inactive soldiers want to use their standing in society to influence the political process? This is treason.

[alexbmn]

my first sentence was "this is suh f****ing bull******

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by Noam

Today we have same doubters and refusinks who think that the ARabs have full right to annihilate us.
.

I disagree completely.As a matter of fact, I am proud of their courage.
Right or wrong they have stood up for what they believe in.
And they are doing it FOR their country.

No one is talking about submitting to the arabs.
It's about how we can secure our safety and our ethical standards at the same time,surely no easy feat.
I believe that soldiers who have acted improperly in the territories should be disciplined.
If we ignore what's going on, we face risks as a society of a completely different nature.
I know Israelis too, and most are horrified at what they are doing to the palestinians.They know it's necessary....but they are torn by guilt as well.Now, you may think that they are all left wing symapthizers,but it isn't so.They know what's at stake as well if not better that the posters on this board.
This is a complex situation.There are no easy answers.

[alexbmn]

There are no easy answers for people with no convictions. What these soldiers did is in no way positive . Just because they expressed a dissenting opinion doesnt make their act in any way positive.
I could express an opinion that eating babies should be allowed, and it would not be a positive statement despite the fact that it's contrary to the majority. The purpose of any army is first and foremost of all to defend
their state and ITS people not f*****ing enemy civilans that support suicide bombing. IslamOnline and Palestinian newspapers are quite happy over thi development. These ex soldiers are fracturing an already divided society that only happens to be under siege. However
reserve call ups always exceed 90 percent so they are a drop in the bucket. Those Israelis who actually currently serve in the territories do not shy away from their duty.

[alexbmn]

can you imagine Soviet Soldiers refusing to go to Germany in 1944 because "well its their land and we already have done our job pushing them out of the USSR,and after all innocent German civilians will get killed. "
i'm so happy that I grew up in the USSR where people didnt have these moral dilemmas about killing the enemy. Only when I go to Russian Israeli forums do I feel some hope for Israel.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Communication
Thanks, sharonbn. Life is much more complicated for Israelis than it is for Americans. We watch our wars on television and they look to us like video games. When I was in Israel, I was in a dialogue group between American and Israeli Jews. One Israeli guy shared a story with the rest of us about having performed military watch along a border area. Some Palestinians were crossing the field, heading towards the security area where he was stationed. One of the soldiers called out to stop and they kept approaching so he fired into the air. They didn't stop so he fired near them. They still didn't stop so he and the other soldier shot directly at them. They were on the other side of a fence. A couple hours went by and there was no movement. Then some Arabs came by and lifted the body of a woman up and took her out of the field. All the Americans acted very matter of factly about the situation and said, "You did what you had to do, the security situation..." He just looked at us and said, "But I killed this woman. She could have been a mother, I don't even know who she was." The Americans just kept on saying, "What could you have done differently? You did what you had to do. The security situation....you are in a war..." The Americans were right, of course, but it didn't change anything for this guy who could not seem to get off his conscience that he (or perhaps the other soldier) took a woman's life that day. The guy was in an incredible amount of pain and that much was very clear to me. Things are happening to us now (both American Jews and Israelis) and it's changing who we are. We have to deal with that.

Sometimes you just have to do what has to be done no matter what the consequences may be. I don’t think it exactly makes someone’s day to shoot an unarmed woman but how would he truly know that she wasn’t armed?

An Arab comes to lift away the body so she could have had a grenade or some other type of a weapon. Assuming that the soldier wasn’t an orphan and he would have been killed how would his family feel?

He did the right thing and I would have done the same even if it had been a small child. In a war type of a situation you have to dehumanize the enemy to a certain extent because if you think you’re shooting your mother and sister then you don’t belong there.

War isn’t pleasant and I’m certain that it isn’t for the weak hearted.