Why It's Islam Versus the Rest of the World

[ibrodsky]

Why it’s Islam vs rest of the world
TAVLEEN SINGH


In Davos this year there was much talk of Islam and its differences with the West. The emphasis was on trying to understand why rather than on dismissing the whole issue as that clash of civilisations Samuel Huntington wrote so prophetically about nearly ten years before 9/11. A whole gamut of Muslim intellectuals were invited to address sessions with subjects as diverse as religion and globalisation, modernity and Islam and the shared roots of Western and Islamic culture. Arab princes spoke, as did professors and scholars from the Islamic world and women in hijab who argued that the West try and understand that democracy and gender issues had different meanings in different cultures. The Grand Mufti of Bosnia was there alongside the former American Archbishop of Canterbury and representing the Indian subcontinent was, ironically, General Pervez Musharraf.

As I watched him expound on his theory that Islam was a peaceful religion that sought only friendship and peace with the world, I found myself wondering why then it had been necessary to break India up for reasons of Islam. But, that is the sort of politically incorrect question nobody asks these days just as we do not ask why the Kashmir Valley’s struggle for autonomy has ended up becoming part of the international jehad against Americans, Jews and Hindus. Political correctness was very much the mood of the World Economic Forum’s annual meeting so many of those who spoke for Islam got away with blaming the West for their woes.

You must understand, they said, that terrorism was not Islamic or Christian but just terrorism. And, you must understand that at the root of what was going on lay unresolved political problems like Palestine and Kashmir. Our friendly, neighbourhood military dictator went so far as to say that because of these unresolved political issues young Muslims had developed a sense of persecution and had begun to believe that the world was against Islam. It was the duty of the West to not just help resolve these political issues fairly but also help solve some of the socio-economic problems of the Islamic world. Then, the world would be at peace once more and we could live without the threat of suicide bombers.

Since this column has never had pretensions of political correctness let me spit it out. It would, in my view, be a terrible mistake to try and understand the causes of Islamic terrorism. And, please let us call it Islamic since nearly every terrorist act in recent years has been committed by Muslims in the name of their so-called jehad. These terrible acts of violence cannot be excused on political grounds. There have always been political disputes and there always will be but the solution is not terrorism. As for ‘‘socio-economic’’ causes we need to remember that none of the hijackers of 9/11 were poor, illiterate or underprivileged. Many of them have abandoned their repressive home countries for comfortable, middle-class lives in Europe and the United States but were so consumed by hatred of the West that they were prepared to die for it.

Moderate Muslims need to ask why just as they need to ask why, despite all their oil, even rich Muslim countries are unable to create just and enlightened societies instead of ones that produce disaffected, desperate youths who are prepared to give their lives to kill innocent people. If the West is such a terrible place and America Satan incarnate then why do so many Muslims choose to migrate to cities like New York and London? Why are they not happy to live bigoted, blinkered lives in Riyadh and Jeddah?

There would be no problem with Islam, no ‘‘clash’’ of any kind, if it would restrict its jehad to its own boundaries. It is precisely because it has chosen to internationalise its ideological and religious battle that there is trouble. Just as young Muslims think their way of life is worth fighting and dying for, so young people who are not Muslim feel their way of life is worth fighting for. And, whether Muslims are prepared to admit it or not modernity does mean questioning ancient religious beliefs and demanding answers. A religion that is based on the belief that the last word or ideology, faith, social mores and law was written fourteen hundred years ago will always find itself in conflict with change. Modernity is in its essence the ability to accept change.

This is the jehad that needs to be fought but it needs to be fought within Islam so that moderate, rational voices can rise above the violence and hatred of the bigots who seem to be the only ones able to speak for Islam.

In Davos we were supposed to have heard the voices of moderate Islam but what we ended up hearing, at session after session, was an endless litany of complaints. It was the fault of the West that Islam was being labelled a terrorist religion, the fault of the West that most Muslim rulers were despots, the fault of the West that political issues had been allowed to fester, the fault of the West that Muslim countries had not progressed economically and the fault of the West that Osama bin Laden had got created. In vain I searched to hear one voice that would admit that there must be something deeply wrong in Islamic societies that they had bred the sort of hatred that created so much senseless violence. Just an explanation, for instance, for why the Buddhas of Bamiyan were smashed to bits without one Islamic country intervening. I did not hear it.

— Write to tavleensingh@expressindia.com

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_st...ntent_id=40236

[D.Abraham]

Ibro:

As for ‘‘socio-economic’’ causes we need to remember that none of the hijackers of 9/11 were poor, illiterate or underprivileged. Many of them have abandoned their repressive home countries for comfortable, middle-class lives in Europe and the United States but were so consumed by hatred of the West that they were prepared to die for it.

Let us also remember that more often than not the underclass, the disparraged are the pious ones amoungst the world's community but too also many criminals come from those same classes. But, so oftentimes in our "middle-class" communites in America criminals of belief also develop to equal measure. Do you remember those kids at Columbine? How bout' Timothy McVay? Crime and hatred don't exist soley amoungst certain class lines or socio-economic models. We must be vigilant and reasonable to suspect it from any socio, economic, color, ethic or religious backgrounds..... Judge people as individuals............ As you yourself would also want to be judged in a time of clamity.

My Fiance' is from Mumbai, India. She is Orthodox Jew, a Bene Israeli. She has expressed grave concern to me regarding Muslim hatred in India. She is quick to defend a Muslim in her home country on the grounds of one particular occurance that is prevelant in India. The occurance is both the unreported and reported incidences of Hindu's literally "pantsing" a suspected Muslim on the grounds of checking their "shmeckels" for a closer inspection of evidence of circumcision. Then they either beat the person or more often kill them ruthlessly. This is no story, it is the truth. Well, often times she has feared for her Dad's life in cetain areas when they'd travel... Do you know why? -That is blasphemy and outrageous! So, others are the hapless victims directly or inderctly and live in fear too as a result of this practice.

Believe me, many of my dear friends over the years are Hindu's. "Do two wrongs make a right?"

[ibrodsky]

D. Abraham,

Likewise, do not judge me by an article written by someone else that I post only as a basis for discussion.

What struck me about this article was, on one hand, the description of a meeting so determined to show respect for Muslims that it bent over backwards to give them a hearing and, on the other hand, how (at least according to the author) they used the podium to deliver "an endless littany of complaints."

The first thing that amazes me is that while Western participants represent a wide range of interests Muslim participants come as members of a single advocacy group reading from the same script.

The World Economic Forum meeting is supposed to address a wide range of issues ranging from regional conflicts to obesity to corporate citizenship. If you look at the press releases from the meeting, however, they show a disproportionate focus on the concerns and complaints of the Muslim world regarding a narrow set of issues.

Keep in mind that the World Economic Forum is one of the many gatherings conceived, planned, and organized by liberal-minded Westerners. I have nothing against reaching out to other cultures, but at some point you have to ask why one side is so eager to assign blame and the other is so eager to accept it.

I'm happy to judge people as individuals. Here's hoping they start acting like individuals!

[L@mplighterM]

What Singh wrote has a ring of truth to it when compared to Islam throughout the world. Singh the writer is a Sikh and I find it unlikely that he would stick up for Hindus. Islam leaves in its wake rape, murder and mayhem wherever it goes, that’s a fact.

I admire Hindus because they know how to retaliate big time. If Hindus were subjected to the continuous attacks of Palestinians they would slaughter the lot. I don’t know who threw the first stone in India but I do know that based on all the data I’ve seen Muslims should share most of the blame.

Jews live in India among Hindus and Sikhs unmolested and so it appears that they make good neighbors. Hindus and Sikhs clash so do Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
What Singh wrote has a ring of truth to it when compared to Islam throughout the world. Singh the writer is a Sikh and I find it unlikely that he would stick up for Hindus. Islam leaves in its wake rape, murder and mayhem wherever it goes, that’s a fact.

Singh's point was that only one group seems to speak for Muslims, not that "Islam leaves in its wake rape, murder and mayhem wherever it goes..."

I don't think anyone would accuse me of being soft on Islamism. But your sweeping generalizations re: Muslims don't help. I've had business dealings with Turks and Indonesians and find them reasonable and decent.

The global epidemic of terrorist mass murder is clearly linked to islam. And Islam is in desperate need of major reform. But that doesn't mean all Muslims are killers. I suspect there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who would welcome reform.

I admire Hindus because they know how to retaliate big time. If Hindus were subjected to the continuous attacks of Palestinians they would slaughter the lot. I don’t know who threw the first stone in India but I do know that based on all the data I’ve seen Muslims should share most of the blame.

Sounds like you are praising mob justice. I don't see any signs that Hindus have solved the problem of religious/ethnic violence in India.

Jews live in India among Hindus and Sikhs unmolested and so it appears that they make good neighbors. Hindus and Sikhs clash so do Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs.

So what does this prove?

The model for tolerance of different religions and ethnic groups--and zero tolerance for terrorists--is the U.S.

Israel also does an amazing job given the attacks and threats it confronts.

In a modern society--one on the opposite extreme of the spectrum from barbaric societies such as Arafatistan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, ad nauseum--religion is a personal matter. In Islamic states (e.g., those instituting Sharia) religion is forced down the people's throats.

[Manne]

Hi,

Okay, I wrote a long reply only to have that lost in session timeout. So, here goes the nutshell version

1. Sikhs are actually a sect within hindu religion though they are now mistaken to be a different religion. One only has to read the Sikh history to realise that. So, please don't draw any conclusions from that.

2. Any religion that imposes itself on its followers and prohibits change is bound to suffer consequences. Any wonder why most muslims are backward and resist change ?

3. The "particular occurance that is prevelant in India" mentioned by Abraham is not a general practice at all. And this comes from a person who has spent more than a few decades in Mumbai and does not practice any religion per se. It has happened during riots but then many bad things happen with mobs riot. If you ask me, a jew would be at a greater risk from a muslim mob. Also, I can point out with references that islamic zealots are always the first to start riots. And they suffer the consequences.

4. Tavleen Singh is stating the obvious. You may also be interested in the articles penned by another Indian Express columnist "Saeed Naqvi" who happens to be a progressive and patriotic Indian muslim.

added later:

ibrodsky, I agree with you on most points. However, the end result is indeed Islamists leaving murder and rape in their wake.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Singh's point was that only one group seems to speak for Muslims, not that "Islam leaves in its wake rape, murder and mayhem wherever it goes..."

I don't think anyone would accuse me of being soft on Islamism. But your sweeping generalizations re: Muslims don't help. I've had business dealings with Turks and Indonesians and find them reasonable and decent.

The global epidemic of terrorist mass murder is clearly linked to islam. And Islam is in desperate need of major reform. But that doesn't mean all Muslims are killers. I suspect there are hundreds of millions of Muslims who would welcome reform.



Sounds like you are praising mob justice. I don't see any signs that Hindus have solved the problem of religious/ethnic violence in India.



So what does this prove?

The model for tolerance of different religions and ethnic groups--and zero tolerance for terrorists--is the U.S.

Israel also does an amazing job given the attacks and threats it confronts.

In a modern society--one on the opposite extreme of the spectrum from barbaric societies such as Arafatistan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, ad nauseum--religion is a personal matter. In Islamic states (e.g., those instituting Sharia) religion is forced down the people's throats.

I could compile a list several pages long listing the names of western businesses that did business with the Nazis prior to WWII.

I know very well that NewsGuy has acquaintances that are Muslims and I myself have done business with Muslims prior to 9/11. Many tears ago I had a teacher that told me not to separate the fly **** from the pepper and I think that’s advice that can be used when dealing with a civilization that supports the destruction of the west. The point that I’m trying to make is that there’s overwhelming support from within Islam for the destruction of the west, it’s not isolated.

Actions are stronger than words and therefore it becomes a universal language of it’s own. When Islam speaks innocent people die or end up living with the touch of its horrendous acts.

Mob justice doesn’t work when there are referees that stand in the way and if that obstacle was removed Hindus could live more peacefully. Based on what I’ve read I’m not willing to apportion the blame I place it squarely on the shoulders of Muslims.

I have no great love for the Hindus way of life but they have a right to live unmolested and take whatever actions are necessary to achieve those goals.

Israelis to some extent share the situation that India faces and there’s little doubt that Muslim countries would like to wipe it of the map. Islam knows that India has nuclear capabilities and that has resulted in a stalemate.

Like India, Israel also has nuclear capabilities that may or may not be used in the coming years depending on the behavior of it’s neighbors. Israel is subjected to daily attempted attacks by Islam it’s a never-ending battle to stop Islamic terrorism, still it’s willing to forgive.

Perhaps there’s only one group that speaks for Islam because that’s all it has to offer. If 20-30 % of Islam doesn’t support terrorism then that group could hardly be classified as being representatives of Islam.

I watched a segment of an interview on Larry King live last night and a woman was being interviewed in Cairo sometimes past 9/11. The woman said that she didn’t feel sorry for the US and now Americans have to live in fear. She also raised the issue of the suffering Palestinians that were being persecuted by Israel.

I think that close to 100% of Muslims see the US as the “Great Satan” and Israel as the “Little Satan” and based on the polls that I’ve seen up to 80%(depends on which state) of Muslims support terrorism. I further believe that close to 100% of Muslims would like to see the decline and fall of the west.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


I think that close to 100% of Muslims see the US as the “Great Satan” and Israel as the “Little Satan” and based on the polls that I’ve seen up to 80%(depends on which state) of Muslims support terrorism. I further believe that close to 100% of Muslims would like to see the decline and fall of the west.

Turkey is trying to get into the EU and I see no evidence that wreaking havoc is their goal. They simply want to be part of what they see as the more developed and prosperous civilization.

Polls in Arafatistan show up to 87% support terrorism. I doubt the figures are that high in many other Muslim countries. I would venture that the majority of Iranians would love to see the Mullahs' regime replaced by a secular government.

In several Muslim countries the "street" is manipulated by the tyrants. Decent leaders could raise the level of discourse. A little freedom would allow dissidents to show how contemporary Islam promotes death and destruction. Not everyone wants to be a brainwashed killbot, but most need to see signs that asserting their individuality is safe.

Do you really want to be just a mirror image of them?

[L@mplighterM]

A decent leader speaks with the voice of the people and allows the voters to criticize whatever he says.

Islam speaks with one voice and that’s Mohammed’s. Turkey recently elected a government that has ties to Islamic fundamentalism and the secular military there keeps it in line, Pakistan is the same. As a matter of fact fundamentalism is on the increase throughout Islam.

I’m a mirror image of myself and when I see evidence that Islam is willing to crack down hard on Islamic fundamentalist terrorists then and only then will I stand down or at least modify my opinion.

Islam poses a threat to whatever I hold dear and I don’t believe that change can come from within that religion/political movement.

[L@mplighterM]

It has become obvious the media is driving the message that Islam is peaceful home. Some believe that moderate Islam will somehow magically tame the fundamentalist beast within that movement other’s believe it’ll die because it’s an unpopular movement.

I believe that Islamic fundamentalism is like a plaque that will consume our planet and that’s my message. I’m not worried about Islamic fundamentalism for myself but I don’t want the ones that I leave behind or care for enslaved or murdered by religious fanatics.

I imagine that the individuals that spoke out against Nazism were also told that it would die out when it achieved economic prosperity for Germans.
Some didn’t believe that and escaped while still others tried to get away only to be rounded up and executed later.

If our beliefs can modify when the surrounding environment stays the same then we must have been worshiping false g_ds. Islam is more militant today than it was in the seconds leading up to 9/11 and tomorrow there’ll be more Islamic fundamentalist terrorist supporters.

[andak01]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Polls in Arafatistan show up to 87% support terrorism.

How do they phrase that question? "Do you support terrorism?"

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by andak01
How do they phrase that question? "Do you support terrorism?"

A number of scientific polls are conducted by various groups such as the Jerusalem Media & Communications Center. Here is an example question from an actual poll. The results are often broken down into "strongly support," "somewhat support," and so forth. There are also often breakdowns for the West Bank versus Gaza. Polls are conducted scientifically to ensure samples include a cross-section of Palestinian society and error margins are calculated and noted.

Q.11 What is your feeling towards suicide bombing operations against Israeli civilians, do you support it or oppose it?

JMCC was established in 1988 by a group of Palestinian journalists and researchers to provide information on events in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip.

So anyone can see that the questions are not ""Do you support terrorism?" as you cynically suggest, but carefully phrased to determine if respondents approve of blowing up ordinary Israelis commuting to/from school and work.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
A number of scientific polls are conducted by various groups such as the Jerusalem Media & Communications Center. Here is an example question from an actual poll. The results are often broken down into "strongly support," "somewhat support," and so forth. There are also often breakdowns for the West Bank versus Gaza. Polls are conducted scientifically to ensure samples include a cross-section of Palestinian society and error margins are calculated and noted.





So anyone can see that the questions are not ""Do you support terrorism?" as you cynically suggest, but carefully phrased to determine if respondents approve of blowing up ordinary Israelis commuting to/from school and work.

What exactly should be done to neighbors that support your death and act out on these various polls?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I don't think anyone would accuse me of being soft on Islamism. But your sweeping generalizations re: Muslims don't help. I've had business dealings with Turks and Indonesians and find them reasonable and decent.

JAKARTA, Feb. 3 — A new militant Islamic militia has emerged here, according to a report released Tuesday by the International Crisis Group, just as Attorney General John Ashcroft is scheduled to arrive to address a conference on terrorism.

The new group, Mujahedeen Kompak, was formed by hard-liners who split from Jemaah Islamiyah, considered Al Qaeda's affiliate in Southeast Asia, according to the report, which was written by Sidney Jones, widely considered the leading authority on Jemaah Islamiyah. Kompak, an acronym, translates roughly as Action Committee for Crisis Response.


The emergence of the group in central Sulawesi Province, which has been racked by Christian-Muslim violence, "suggests a need to revise assessments about the nature and gravity of the terrorist threat in Indonesia," Ms. Jones wrote in the report. "While the shorter-term prospects are somewhat encouraging, there is an underappreciated longer security risk."

The organization presents a possible new partner for Al Qaeda, she wrote.

This is the sixth report about Jemaah Islamiyah and terrorism in Southeast Asia by Ms. Jones, an American who speaks fluent Bahasa Indonesia, the national language. American, Australian and Asian intelligence and police officials are in general agreement that she has done a better job of understanding and analyzing the organization than have their own agencies.

One of the most arresting facts in the 41-page report is contained in a footnote that establishes the date of the founding of Jemaah Islamiyah as Jan. 1, 1993. That comes from a document Ms. Jones obtained. It will surely be uncomfortable for many Indonesians, including senior government officials and religious leaders, who continue to insist that Jemaah Islamiyah does not exist.

Mr. Ashcroft is scheduled to speak Wednesday morning at the terrorism conference, which is being held in Bali and is jointly sponsored by Indonesia and Australia. He is hoping to meet with the Indonesian president, Megawati Sukarnoputri, in the afternoon, American and Indonesian officials said.

High on Indonesia's agenda will be a request that the United States turn over a top Jemaah Islamiyah operative, Riudan Isamuddin, better known as Hambali, a senior Indonesian official said. After an intensive manhunt, Mr. Isamuddin, an Indonesian who was one of the few non-Arabs to earn a place in Osama bin Laden's inner circle, was captured by the Central Intelligence Agency in Bangkok in August. He is being interrogated at an undisclosed location, and the United States has resisted persistent entreaties from the Indonesians for access to him.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has had a team, or teams, of agents in Indonesia since August 2002, when two Americans were killed and eight were wounded in an attack in the easternmost Indonesian province of Irian Jaya. The attacks were in an area owned by Freeport-McMoran Copper and Gold Inc., the giant mining company, which had paid Indonesian soldiers to provide security. More F.B.I. agents came two months later, after the car bomb attacks that killed more than 200 in Bali.

Publicly, American officials say the Indonesians have been cooperating with the F.B.I. in those investigations. Privately, however, American officials complain about the lack of full cooperation.

All indications are that Indonesian soldiers were involved in the killings in Irian Jaya, American officials have said. Because of a lack of full cooperation and the absence of vital forensic evidence, however, they are doubtful that the killers will ever be found.

In the attacks in Bali, the Indonesian government has not given the F.B.I. as much direct access as it would like to those under arrest, several of whom have been convicted and are facing execution, officials said. The officials added that this was not considered a serious impediment, because, they noted, the Indonesians had done a good job of rounding up and prosecuting the attackers.

The arrests have seriously crippled Jemaah Islamiyah, which has also been weakened by internal divisions "over how, when and where to wage jihad," Ms. Jones said in her report.

A top priority for governments now, she concluded, is to prevent central Sulawesi from becoming an international training center like Afghanistan was under the Taliban.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/04/in...ia/04INDO.html

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
What exactly should be done to neighbors that support your death and act out on these various polls?

The Palestinians are brainwashed by Arafat's PA from early childhood. They live in a society that honors Islamo-Nazi groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. They interpret their primitive, morally-bankrupt religion--with its commandment to "jihad"--literally.

Therefore, as I've said many times the Palestinians should be militarily defeated and the terrorist majority in the West Bank transferred back to the Arab homeland where they can live among their fellow Koran-reciting barbarians.

But the Turks prefer secular society. So do most Iranian youth. Though the Muslim world is clearly dominated by the "Orthodox," it is possible for Muslims who do not take every word literally (or who simply reject some ideas as fitting the 7th century but not the 21st) to be "Reformed."

I understand your need to reduce this complex problem to a simple solution, but even among the brainwashed Palestinians there are 5-10% who strongly oppose jihad-genocide. Some have no doubt helped the Israeli air force pinpoint the Islamo-Nazis. I recently met a Palestinian who rejected Islam and the Palestinians' racist cause: he was forced to break off contact with his own family to avoid being murdered by Palestinian barbarians living in the U.S.