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Thread: Germans blame U.S. for Qaeda acquittal

  1. #1
    Like2Talk
    Guest

    Germans blame U.S. for Qaeda acquittal

    It is sometimes hard to believe that Bush is serious about fighting terrorism...



    The invasion of Iraq is regarded as the most blatant proof that the Bush administration is either very very stupid in believing that they are doing anything else than creating terrorism or, as most european think, they are after something else...

    So the Bush administration is very good at invading a weak country full of oil, but when a *real* terrorist is caught, well...


    Americans refused to supply evidence

    BERLIN From the point of view of many Americans - and certainly of many irritated officials in the Bush administration - the fight against international terrorism received a sharp setback when a German court acquitted a major Al Qaeda suspect, who was only the second man to come to trial in connection with the September 11 attacks in New York and Washington. But, from the German point of view, the acquittal Thursday of the defendant, Abdelghani Mzoudi, a 31-year-old Moroccan who was indisputably a member of the Al Qaeda cell in Hamburg that furnished several of the September 11 leaders, can be laid directly at the feet of the United States, which persistently refused to provide the cooperation needed for a conviction.
    .
    That hardly promises to improve the tenor of relations between Germany and the United States, just at a time when the two countries have been trying, with some success, to warm up ties virtually frozen in distrust and hostility because of disagreement over the Iraq war.
    .
    Beyond that, the Mzoudi acquittal signals the difficulties and ambiguities that are bound to surround efforts to get convictions of Al Qaeda members in democratic civilian courts. The Mzoudi trial was one in which, from the prosecution's standpoint, almost everything went wrong, and there is no assurance that there was any way, given German laws and trial procedure, for matters to have come out right from the point of view of the prosecution or the United States.
    .
    Indeed, as a consequence of the Mzoudi trial, there is now a strong possibility that the only man convicted for involvement in the September 11 plot, Mounir el-Motassadeq, another presumed member of the Hamburg Al Qaeda cell, will be released when he presents an appeal in a few weeks.
    .
    In Germany the morning after the Mzoudi acquittal, most commentators held the United States primarily responsible for the court's decision, which they saw as lamentable but unavoidable given the circumstances.
    .
    "A significant part of the blame for this lies with the U.S. authorities," the business newspaper Handelsblatt editorialized Friday. "They have dedicated themselves to a war against terrorism, but withheld an important witness in this and the Motassadeq trial. In the latter trial this could even lead to a successful appeal."
    .
    Certainly from the German point of view, there is something strangely, frustratingly counterproductive in the Americans' behavior, which has been to demand ever higher levels of cooperation from its allies in the antiterrorism fight even as the United States has rejected virtually all German requests for cooperation in the prosecution of Mzoudi.
    .
    "I find this conduct by the United States incomprehensible," Kay Nehm, the German chief federal prosecutor, was reported to have said Thursday following Mzoudi's acquittal.
    .
    The prosecution's case against Mzoudi disintegrated essentially over the refusal by the United States to find a way to satisfy the Hamburg court's request for access to information gathered during interrogations of captured Al Qaeda suspects. As the trial of Mzoudi unfolded late last year, the presiding judge, Klaus Rühle warned that he might have to dismiss the case altogether if the requests for intelligence information were ignored.
    .
    This led Germany's Federal Criminal Office, a rough equivalent of the FBI, to what seems to have been a compromise formula, though it was a compromise that turned out to be a boon to Mzoudi's defense. The German police submitted a letter to the court that summarized intelligence information it had earlier received from the United States, specifically a statement by a leading Al Qaeda member made to American interrogators that neither Mzoudi nor Motassedeq was aware of the specifics of the September 11 plot.
    .
    The name of the Al Qaeda member was not released, but just about every observer of the trial assumed it was Ramzi bin al-Shibh, one of the top planners of the September 11 attacks. He is now in American custody.
    .
    Following the release of the police letter, Rühle ordered that Mzoudi be released for the rest of his trial, an action whose portent was clear: Unless the court were given a chance to further examine Bin al-Shibh's testimony, Mzoudi would be acquitted. Responding to that pressure, according to the German magazine Der Spiegel, Interior Minister Otto Schily personally appealed to the American attorney general, John Ashcroft, for some way to satisfy the Hamburg court's demand, but he was rebuffed. The German Interior Ministry has not confirmed the Der Spiegel report.
    .
    Given the American refusal, prosecutors had to hope that other evidence against Mzoudi would convince the court of his guilt, and there was other evidence. For example, early in the trial, an Al Qaeda informant testified that both Mzoudi and Motassedeq attended an Al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, and it could be assumed that any graduate of an Al Qaeda training camp was a willing and enthusiastic warrior in the cause of the Al Qaeda leader, Osama bin Laden.
    .
    In addition, the prosecution showed that Mzoudi was once a roommate of Mohammed Atta, operational commander of the September 11 plot in the United States, and that he had helped with financial transactions that were part of the plot. Still, the problem for the prosecution was that there was no smoking gun refutation of Bin al-Shibh's exculpatory assertion regarding Mzoudi.
    .
    Would an opportunity to cross examine Bin al-Shibh or, at least, to examine the full transcript of his interrogation have led to a guilty verdict? Nobody will every know the answer to that question. It is possible that there would be enough contradictory material in the Bin al-Shibh interview to allow the court essentially to disregard his assertions regarding Mzoudi's innocence. There is, of course, no assurance that this would have happened, and then the Americans would have made an exception to their rule against making intelligence information public and still not have gotten a conviction of Mzoudi. Still, in refusing to find a way to grant the German court's request, the United States essentially stood by while an Al Qaeda suspect went free, even as it perplexed German officials doing their best to help in the antiterror battle
    http://www.iht.com/articles/128573.html

  2. #2
    Roland
    Guest

    Re: Germans blame U.S. for Qaeda acquittal

    Originally posted by Like2Talk
    It is sometimes hard to believe that Bush is serious about fighting terrorism...



    The invasion of Iraq is regarded as the most blatant proof that the Bush administration is either very very stupid in believing that they are doing anything else than creating terrorism or, as most european think, they are after something else...

    So the Bush administration is very good at invading a weak country full of oil, but when a *real* terrorist is caught, well...


    http://www.iht.com/articles/128573.html
    Yes! Thank you Like2 Talk. You speak my mind.
    And next we'll get called anti-americanists, won't we?

  3. #3
    Kev
    Guest
    I think it is far to early too comment on why this took place but I suspect Bush has very good reasons for doing what he did.

    Perhaps it was in the intererst of security not to give the Europeans the information required, and if so, perhaps it is best he is set free if so and recaptured again by the Americans and dealt with properly.

    This of course is all speculation as none of us have the details of this deal.............and cannot therefore comment on what happened!

  4. #4
    Roland
    Guest
    Originally posted by Kev
    I think it is far to early too comment on why this took place but I suspect Bush has very good reasons for doing what he did.

    Perhaps it was in the intererst of security not to give the Europeans the information required, and if so, perhaps it is best he is set free if so and recaptured again by the Americans and dealt with properly.

    This of course is all speculation as none of us have the details of this deal.............and cannot therefore comment on what happened!
    Comment of Mzoudi's lawyers: Mr. Mzoudi will continue his study at the University and live in Hamburg longer than your (the adressed Senator of Hamburgs gov't) senatorship lasts. (I heared her saying that on radio news)
    Nobody will be captured by the Americans and dealt with in Germany!
    Following that trial, it looked to me like they did everything possible to keep Mzoudi in prison. I suspect the US intelligence to have NOTHING on AL Quaeda but thier pants down and Bush to be more like this http://www.dubyasworld.com .

  5. #5
    Gilgamesh
    Guest
    Originally posted by Roland
    Comment of Mzoudi's lawyers: Mr. Mzoudi will continue his study at the University and live in Hamburg longer than your (the adressed Senator of Hamburgs gov't) senatorship lasts. (I heared her saying that on radio news)
    Nobody will be captured by the Americans and dealt with in Germany!
    Following that trial, it looked to me like they did everything possible to keep Mzoudi in prison. I suspect the US intelligence to have NOTHING on AL Quaeda but thier pants down and Bush to be more like this http://www.dubyasworld.com .
    Just another proof of which side Germany is, in the war against terrorism. Hint: Not with USA and the us.

  6. #6
    Raidri
    Guest
    Originally posted by Roland
    Comment of Mzoudi's lawyers: Mr. Mzoudi will continue his study at the University and live in Hamburg longer than your (the adressed Senator of Hamburgs gov't) senatorship lasts. (I heared her saying that on radio news). [...]
    hm,.. i think she´s not right
    http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/0,1518,286415,00.html

  7. #7
    pompoen
    Guest
    Originally posted by Gilgamesh
    Just another proof of which side Germany is, in the war against terrorism. Hint: Not with USA and the us.
    Why?

    Because Germany didnt get any info from the USA?
    Because in Germany people are assumed innocent untill proven otherwise?
    Because the German gouvernement wont let other countries "capture" people on their souverain territory?

    I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic after your response.

    But maybe all you wanted was to express how much you hate Europe and offcourse Germany.

    If they USA has some credible information to back up the accusations made by the German prosecutors but chooses not to share that information and let a possible terrorist walk away ... then it is the US that is supporting terrorism and not Germany.

  8. #8
    Gilgamesh
    Guest
    Originally posted by pompoen
    Why?
    Because Germany failed to collaborate in the war against terrorism, because Germany harbor terrorists, like the 9-11 Hamburg cell, because German security services fail to provide the information it is responsible for, since Germany has a tradition of the last 60 years to abuse her law system to cover up for terrorists and Nazi crimminals and failur to do justace with them.

  9. #9
    pompoen
    Guest
    You're not answering my question.

    What I asked was: how do you conclude that Germany supports terrorism ... out of Rolands post?

  10. #10
    pompoen
    Guest
    but I'll reply to your post anyway

    Originally posted by Gilgamesh
    Because Germany failed to collaborate in the war against terrorism
    Collaborating isnt that easy if your partner isnt willing to share its information.

    Originally posted by Gilgamesh
    because Germany harbor terrorists, like the 9-11 Hamburg cell
    Rediculous, Germany didnt HARBOUR them.

    Originally posted by Gilgamesh
    because German security services fail to provide the information it is responsible for
    Maybe they should start making things up, like the American security services

    Originally posted by Gilgamesh
    since Germany has a tradition of the last 60 years to abuse her law system to cover up for terrorists and Nazi crimminals and failur to do justace with them.
    Completly untrue ... ever since Germany is reconstructed after WW2, the entire law system has been built to defend democracy and the rights of indivuduals

  11. #11
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    BERLIN From the point of view of many Americans - and certainly of many irritated officials in the Bush administration - the fight against international terrorism received a sharp setback when a German court acquitted a major Al Qaeda suspect, who was only the second man to come to trial in connection with the September 11 attacks in New York and Washington. But, from the German point of view, the acquittal Thursday of the defendant, Abdelghani Mzoudi, a 31-year-old Moroccan who was indisputably a member of the Al Qaeda cell in Hamburg that furnished several of the September 11 leaders, can be laid directly at the feet of the United States, which persistently refused to provide the cooperation needed for a conviction.
    This is laughable. If he was "indisputably a member of the Al Qaeda cell in Hamburg that furnished several of the September 11 leaders," why would evidence from the US government be needed?

    This sounds more like an excuse by Germans to cover up their fear of upsetting Germany's large population of Muslim immigrants.

    Of course, the article was posted by someone who believes that the US invaded Iraq, where terrorist attacks occur daily, in order to steal that country's oil, a totally baseless charge repeated ad nauseum by anti-American activists whose knowledge of history and current events can be reduced to a series of slogans. To hear "Like2talk" tell it, you would think Saddam Hussein was merely a victim of US imperialism and not one of the greatest mass murderers since Stalin and Hitler.

    Now, you can accuse me of being unfair to German participants in this forum, but that is a cheap and dishonest way to innoculate yourselves against criticism. I don't think Germany overtly and directly supports terrorism, though the EU just admitted that funds sent to the PA have ended up financing terrorists...

    Again, the article claims that this guy was "indisputably" involved with Al Qaeda, but blames the failure to convict him on the US's refusal to disclose the results of interrogations. How can someone be guilty based on evidence that has not been revealed? How can you know in advance that detainees in the US have provided reliable and credible testimony that would have led to a conviction in Germany? How, in short, do you know that Mzoudi was ever mentioned--let alone incriminated?

    Something is rotten in Denmark--or a least Belgium and Germany.

  12. #12
    Raidri
    Guest
    Originally posted by ibrodsky
    [...]Something is rotten in Denmark[...]
    pardon?

  13. #13
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Originally posted by Raidri
    pardon?
    Just a common English expression meaning "there is more to the story than is being told." Comes from Shakespeare's Hamlet.

  14. #14
    Raidri
    Guest
    Originally posted by ibrodsky
    Just a common English expression meaning "there is more to the story than is being told." Comes from Shakespeare's Hamlet.
    no that you´re saying it...

  15. #15
    ibrodsky
    Guest
    Originally posted by Raidri
    no that you´re saying it...
    Read my post. The claim that Germany failed to convict someone who is "indisputably" guilty because the US did not provide the evidence is patently absurd.

    Does the German court somehow know the results of interrogations in the US, but is unable to use those results because they have not been officially transmitted?

    How can one know for certain that undisclosed testimony by terrorists will lead to a conviction? When did terrorists become credible witnesses? How do you know they even admit to knowing Mzoudi?

    I see Germany failing to convict someone who is claimed "indisputably" guilty. And I see the US being blamed. There must be more to the story.

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