Home | I missed the exact numbers and now cant find it on the BBC web site but according to what I just saw flash across the screen on BBC on my TV The socialists so far, IF the polls havent yet closed are ahead about about 3 points
I believe it was 42% to 39%
Polls have closed but now there seems to be some confusion.
One early poll shows the Socialists in the lead and another shows the Conservatives leading.
Ah gotta love BBC when you cant get FOX in Canada
Either way it looks very tight!
Both exit polls are now giving the Socialists a minor lead
[...]Hochrechnungen zufolge kam die Volkspartei von Premier Aznar nur auf 36 Prozent, die Sozialisten erzielten über 43 Prozent.[...]
that´s what spiegel.de says...
Socialists JUST declared a Victory, BBC will have a news confrence in a few mins
Le Parti socialiste ouvrier espagnol (PSOE) se situe clairement en tête lors du dépouillement des législatives, avec 43,1 % des suffrages et 165 députés, devant le Parti populaire, le parti au pouvoir, qui n'obtient que 36,8 % et 146 sièges, selon des résultats partiels portant sur 77 % des bulletins dépouillés. Le parti de Jose Maria Aznar, qui était assuré de remporter l'élection, subit donc de plein fouet les conséquences des attentats de Madrid.
As I felt it coming , the socialists got a really huge boost (polls before bombings gave more than 50% to the conservative). Many more people came to vote, and voted against the Aznar government (and you can consider thy voted against Bush too).The Spanish working socialist Party (PSOE) is clearly at the head during the examination of legislative, with 43,1 % of the votes and 165 deputies, in front of the popular Party, the party with the capacity, which obtains only 36,8 % and 146 seats, according to results' partial relating to 77 % of the stripped bulletins. The party of Jose Maria Aznar, which was ensured to gain the election, thus undergoes full whip the consequences of the attacks of Madrid.
No doubt the bombings played a major role, but I had many echoes the that people where also very displeased by the govermnent's attempts to accuse ETA
Anyway it's not bad that sending a country to war against the will of 75% of the people is sanctionned. After all the safety of a nation should be a concern for a government, more than boasting with Bush and invading countries under false pretenses.
And what's new, a special security meeting of european interior ministers is organized this week. It seems europe will unite a bit more to protect her security, but probably not the way Bush demands.
Blame is being put on 2 million young voters who havent ever voted before!
Now, why is it I am NOT suprised these young voters really believe that Peace At Any Cost is the way to vote?
They are showing that group, but they are also showing a lot of conservative voters who are very angry that the Socialists got in.
It seems that if it werent for these young voters who never would have voted had the terrorist act happened, the same Party as before would have retained power!
Most of it was done by cell phone and internet to get the support.
In a democracy you don't "blame" people for voting, Kev.Originally posted by Kev
Blame is being put on 2 million young voters who havent ever voted before!
People choose and leaders are elected by the people.
If you want to protest against the result, you can always blame the electoral system, like I do with Israeli proportional system giving a huge power to extremists through making coalitions necessary.
As far as I know the socialists will have to form a coalition with regional parties, which may include the basques. Maybe you can understand than not all basques are terrorists, maybe you cannot...
some more calculations : turnout +7% ==> 2.625.000 more people came to vote than at the previous election (more than than that actually, turnout being on a downtrend).
I guess Newsguy failed to recuperate the "we want to know the truth" like he so cleverly attempted.
Bush looses one more ally.
I suppose the same strategy in Britain would give the opposite result. In France / germany, it would be neutral since the gvt position was in phase with the people.
In Italy, though it would prove devastating for Berlusconi, who has a very Aznar-like, populist-authoritarian profile... and supported Bush foolish policy against the population.
This is extremely bad news for the entire world, but Europe most especially. Count on several European countries being targeted this way right before elections.
Do you remember the post I offered to you in the other thread? I'll repost it now:Originally posted by Like2Talk
some more calculations : turnout +7% ==> 2.625.000 more people came to vote than at the previous election (more than than that actually, turnout being on a downtrend).
I guess Newsguy failed to recuperate the "we want to know the truth" like he so cleverly attempted.
Bush looses one more ally.
I suppose the same strategy in Britain would give the opposite result. In France / germany, it would be neutral since the gvt position was in phase with the people.
In Italy, though it would prove devastating for Berlusconi, who has a very Aznar-like, populist-authoritarian profile... and supported Bush foolish policy against the population.
I agree with you that we are on the cusp of a war of civilizations, but this war is not just going on between the West and Islam. The war is going on within Islam itself, and among competing western ideologies. Andak is right when he pointed out that the organizations that are responsible for these attacks do not care about defending Muslims from Western Imperialism. They are pursuing their own vision of Islam and they are willing to use murder as a tool to weaken our economies, our unity, and promote fear throughout the world, including in Muslims countries like Morocco and Saudi Arabia.
Europe is not immune from this war and this latest attack in Spain is not going to be the last. So learn from my country’s mistakes following 9-11. The attack that happened on my country was cynically used to promote the political agendas of both the left and right in my country. The left used the attack as a tool to discredit capitalism, globalization, our friendship with Israel and a variety of other causes. The right used a national tragedy to execute a plan that was years in the making in order to invade Iraq, an invasion that may have otherwise been legitimate if our leaders had been honest with us and had it been executed under a different pretext. The net result is that the focus of the discussion has been misdirected. We spend our time blaming each other and we are becoming weaker because of it.
The United States is strong, and ultimately I believe that we will win this, although I have no idea when and how much we are going to have to endure. My country may have been mistaken to invade Iraq at this time and under the pretext they went in with. But the people of Europe would be mistaken if you allow these Islamist organizations, or any other for that matter, to then use the Iraq war as a pretext for invading your own countries.
So we can all see what road you're heading down. You want to blame Aznar and Berlusconi for siding with Bush. Al Qaeda hasn't even attacked Italy yet and already you are waiving your indignant finger at them saying, "I told you so! Your leader is responsible for all your murdered people." And who are you going to blame when they attack France? They already got a French oil tanker. Or maybe that was a mistake? They thought it belonged to someone else. After all, Al Qaeda would NEVER attack France. Fool!
So the socialists were voted in for Spain. Great! Let's see what they can do better. I'll be very happy if they defeat Al Qaeda. But they won't do it by throwing flowers at the Islamists. I wish them the best luck in coming up with an appropriate strategy. The point is not who wins the war against terrorism, but that it is won. So I know this won't make much sense to you now, but you see, the United States is not your enemey. Al Qaeda is.
Blame the leaders who acted against their own citizens.Originally posted by David_in_NYC
Count on several European countries being targeted this way right before elections.
Such an effect can only occur in countries where the such an important decision (embarking the whole country in a foolish war)is made by against the will of the citizens.
It is this un-democratic situation which brought the change, as well as the disastrous manipulation - wrongly putting the blame on ETA, with no sufficient proof -.
But in a democracy, when the people agree with the policies of their leaders, they are the first to accept coping with the consequences... when they do not and their leaders prove unable to protect the citizens against such a crazy decision, that's what you get.
I'm sorry not MiraOriginally posted by Mira
Do you remember the post I offered to you in the other thread?
I'm already spending too much time writing here while I should not be.
I'll try to answer, but I'm missing time and i'm certainly giving too much attentions to the fanatics that abound here, but I feel it's a priority
Not at all, Europe is on the forefront of the fight (after israel though). And Europe has faced terrorism on a regular basis because we are more open and closer to the middle-east.Originally posted by Mira
Europe is not immune from this war
And that's why we shall pays the highest price for the invasion of Iraq.
Did you read the signs carried by the spanish demonstrators ?
"You war, our victims"
Europe should take his security in his own hands. Now the situation has been cleverly messed up by Bush, a good deal of repression will have to be used because protection must go first. But that won't mean we are going to forget Bush's role in boosting terrorism.
I personally hope Europe will unite her foreign policy and give a single guy the power to conduct negociations or decide things like immediate trade sanctions, forcing governments to cope with their extremists. Wether it's wahabit extremist or a jewish colonialist I don't care, we will hit them hard.
Our safety must go first. And 'no-nonsense' which is another way to say 'no-Bush'.
There are only two bigs guy on earth who have a direct communication with God and who feel entitled to kill masses of people because of it : Bush and Ben Laden. And you know which one is the most dangerous ?
(one more thing : as shown by opinion polls, Europeans make a difference between the Bush administration and the american people. The amazing show of hatred against french/europeans in the US has no parallel to what happened not only on this - propaganda site - but also on major newspapers, like the WSJ.
And the present mistrust could easily disappear, should Kerry win. Anyway even with Bush, antiterrorist cooperation between european nations and the US never stopped and even intensified very strongly lately. Just don't believe what you read on this site, and amongst europeans, the french are at the forefront of the fight against islamism, mainly because of what happened in Algeria).
Your answer is sanctions? Al Qaeda doesn't care about sanctions. France won't even put sanctions on Syria even though they support terrorism. Sanctions didn't even work in Iraq, only the Iraqis suffered. Hussein was still selling oil illegally through Syria and Al Qaeda is nothing like Iraq. They won't be affected by sanctions. Although you could continue to shut down their internet transmissions, beef up your intel., close down their bank accounts, all of these things, which I believe most European countries are already doing. What else?Originally posted by Like2Talk
I'm sorry not Mira
I'm already spending too much time writing here while I should not be.
I'll try to answer, but I'm missing time and i'm certainly giving too much attentions to the fanatics that abound here, but I feel it's a priority
Not at all, Europe is on the forefront of the fight (after israel though). And Europe has faced terrorism on a regular basis because we are more open and closer to the middle-east.
And that's why we shall pays the highest price for the invasion of Iraq.
Did you read the signs carried by the spanish demonstrators ?
"You war, our victims"
Europe should take his security in his own hands. Now the situation has been cleverly messed up by Bush, a good deal of repression will have to be used because protection must go first. But that won't mean we are going to forget Bush's role in boosting terrorism.
I personally hope Europe will unite her foreign policy and give a single guy the power to conduct negociations or decide things like immediate trade sanctions, forcing governments to cope with their extremists. Wether it's wahabit extremist or a jewish colonialist I don't care, we will hit them hard.
Our safety must go first. And 'no-nonsense' which is another way to say 'no-Bush'.
There are only two bigs guy on earth who have a direct communication with God and who feel entitled to kill masses of people because of it : Bush and Ben Laden. And you know which one is the most dangerous ?
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