chinese support on Israel

[elke]

Wrong. They resents US support neo-facist government. Remember Japan never apologize for comfort woman, violence, wwII crimes. Japan never have been prosecuted in international courts. Of course, Japan bows down to the shrine of the warriors who die in WWII. Japan never write down the actual histories of their crime, unlike the germans. They want to forget their history of war.

I don't know much about this topic, but it seems to me that the above excerpt is an argument supporting Kauffner's idea that at least one of the resentments SK's have against US is indirectly tied to Japan...

[Morpheus]

Well good point you made there, Christian, indeed. Nazism is always related to the Germans, though the Japanese were as a bad the Germans. They also had concentration camps for the Chinese people and more Chinese were killed than Jews. But see how fast people forget these things.

[cerulean]

From Christian:

Tiananmen square is actually good for china in the long run. Or else, we will be like the Russian, begging money like a beggar and asking for sympathy. I rather make money in the long run, then ask for pre-condition aids from the west. All the aids from the west is pre-condition. Nothing is free. It is proven in the history that the west is always applying divide and conquer method on china. I rather have unity, than division into pieces. (Yugoslavia) Which in turn controls by western neo-imperialsim.

I think most non-Chinese and many Chinese would find the first sentence somewhat horrifying. Several thousand people were killed in one day for the crime of political protest.

But on to Taiwan, I have friends from Taiwan who definitely do not consider themselves Chinese and are very opposed to this concept. But they do not have any parents or grandparents who were from mainland China. That makes a difference. You are taking it as a default position that Taiwan is part of China. That is not their opinion.

[Morpheus]

What happened on tiananman was horrible, but I think I understand what Christian wants to say.

Russia has also participated in atrocities in WWII, and the cold war. When they lost the Cold war, they wanted to gain sympathy from the west, by becoming the "poodle" of the US and the EU. The EU gives money to Russia because they feel sorry for these people. But I think the Russians would be more satisfied if this money was truely theirs, and not donated but thanks to a strong economy and trading partners. China is chosing for the second option, rather than to become the political equal of the west. The US-EU will therefor not agree with what China thinks/does, but knows that China is an important economic partner (and military superpower), and unlike Russia, is not banckrupt. The power the west has over Russia is not in Russia's advantage. It creates more nationalism, and it's really humiliating for Russians to beg for money from the EU to dismant their ballistic missiles, once their pride.

The west thinks it has to fear from China, because it is becoming too powerful, but on the other hand, it also creates mutual respect to eachother. The west looks to Russia as if it couldn't handle their problems on their own.

[christian]

Originally posted by cerulean
From Christian:


I think most non-Chinese and many Chinese would find the first sentence somewhat horrifying. Several thousand people were killed in one day for the crime of political protest.

But on to Taiwan, I have friends from Taiwan who definitely do not consider themselves Chinese and are very opposed to this concept. But they do not have any parents or grandparents who were from mainland China. That makes a difference. You are taking it as a default position that Taiwan is part of China. That is not their opinion.

By the way, I am not from China. My mother is Taiwanese.

Many taiwanese has my opinion. They want independant soverigty. They don't want independant country.

I already post that. Many Taiwanese still has love towards China. Two days ago, there is pro-unification protest against the president of Taiwan.

If I ask them, are u chinese? They would laugh,because he knows he is a chinese living in Taiwan.

However, if a foreign ask them, are u chinese? It is a embarrasss question,because Taiwan is in a ambiguous questions. It should remain this way.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Morpheus
What happened on tiananman was horrible, but I think I understand what Christian wants to say.

Russia has also participated in atrocities in WWII, and the cold war. When they lost the Cold war, they wanted to gain sympathy from the west, by becoming the "poodle" of the US and the EU. The EU gives money to Russia because they feel sorry for these people. But I think the Russians would be more satisfied if this money was truely theirs, and not donated but thanks to a strong economy and trading partners. China is chosing for the second option, rather than to become the political equal of the west. The US-EU will therefor not agree with what China thinks/does, but knows that China is an important economic partner (and military superpower), and unlike Russia, is not banckrupt. The power the west has over Russia is not in Russia's advantage. It creates more nationalism, and it's really humiliating for Russians to beg for money from the EU to dismant their ballistic missiles, once their pride.

The west thinks it has to fear from China, because it is becoming too powerful, but on the other hand, it also creates mutual respect to eachother. The west looks to Russia as if it couldn't handle their problems on their own.

No one likes Tianmen square in China. It is one of the saddest moment in my life.

However, China can't become a immediate democracy. A immediate democracy means chaos. A immediate democracy means another neo-imperialism from the west.

Democracy must build upon law, human rights, middle class, education, trade, and economic stability. Without one of the factor, it is most likely another crazy mao take over the country.
China has 70% illiteratacy rate. Most of the peasants don't even know the foundation of democracy.

Have you ever ponder after british grants many independance? Only 1/3 survive?
the survivor are the white people, educated in britain or france. They bring them the trade, law, human rights, etc.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by christian


By the way, I am not from China. My mother is Taiwanese.

Many taiwanese has my opinion. They want independant soverigty. They don't want independant country.

I already post that. Many Taiwanese still has love towards China. Two days ago, there is pro-unification protest against the president of Taiwan.

If I ask them, are u chinese? They would laugh,because he knows he is a chinese living in Taiwan.

However, if a foreign ask them, are u chinese? It is a embarrasss question,because Taiwan is in a ambiguous questions. It should remain this way.

Well, fortunately I did not make the faux pax of calling them Chinese or asking if they were. I waited around until the situation was described to me. (I try to do this as much as possible and always regret it if I do not.)

They resent Mandarin being an official language of Taiwan. They are not Chinese. On the other hand, I know other Taiwanese would not mind being called Chinese and they speak Mandarin. How they feel about this would depend on their background and ancestry, I presume.

[christian]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Well good point you made there, Christian, indeed. Nazism is always related to the Germans, though the Japanese were as a bad the Germans. They also had concentration camps for the Chinese people and more Chinese were killed than Jews. But see how fast people forget these things.

It is proven in the history, when the japanese is lack of resources. They will conquer again. This time, they have the american helping hand.

Remember Japan never apologize for the war crime. That is the reason, many s.korea is resenting US.

[christian]

Originally posted by cerulean


Well, fortunately I did not make the faux pax of calling them Chinese or asking if they were. I waited around until the situation was described to me. (I try to do this as much as possible and always regret it if I do not.)

They resent Mandarin being an official language of Taiwan. They are not Chinese. On the other hand, I know other Taiwanese would not mind being called Chinese and they speak Mandarin. How they feel about this would depend on their background and ancestry, I presume.

The taiwanese in Taiwan is speaking Mandarin. I guess everyone opinion is different.

[takeo]

"Democracy must build upon law, human rights, middle class, education, trade, and economic stability. Without one of the factor, it is most likely another crazy mao take over the country.
China has 70% illiteratacy rate. Most of the peasants don't even know the foundation of democracy. "

actually during the time of Mao Tse Tsoung Chinese economy grew too, not at the same rate as the last 20 years, but china in the 70's was less poor than China in the 40's.

actually, chinese literacy rate is 82%, which means only 18% can't read or write.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ch.html

I think the chinese were very lucky they didn't follow the Russian example, i think if there were multi-party elections the government would still win.

[Mediocrates]

You all get it wrong. Wealthy China is not a westernized China. It is not an Asian version of us. Or you. A wealthy China is simply that and if nothing else, the PRC has been able to divorce economic development, to the outside world, from internal politics. There is simply no comparison. You will never have, nor is there any reason to believe you should, have any western political institutions in a wealthy China with a strong middle class. The two are not connected in way. Even outside looking in, China is viewed by the west as a vast untapped market and they will invest on the chance to tap into that market no matter the internal politics. You really really don't understand capitalism if you think otherwise.

[christian]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You all get it wrong. Wealthy China is not a westernized China. It is not an Asian version of us. Or you. A wealthy China is simply that and if nothing else, the PRC has been able to divorce economic development, to the outside world, from internal politics. There is simply no comparison. You will never have, nor is there any reason to believe you should, have any western political institutions in a wealthy China with a strong middle class. The two are not connected in way. Even outside looking in, China is viewed by the west as a vast untapped market and they will invest on the chance to tap into that market no matter the internal politics. You really really don't understand capitalism if you think otherwise.

Mediocrates,
You live in a freedom country for too long. You don't realize how much your ancestor have to pay for freedom of speech, freedom of trade, freedom of press, and constitution. In order words, you never grow with a transition government from dictator til democracy. I have.

Taiwan is a good example. Taiwan regime in 1960's, is just brutal as tianmen square. The government in Taiwan massacre thousands of people with real bullets. To my parents, communist is equal to Kumingtan government.

Taiwanese government understand in order to have a democratic country. You need a large middle class. You need huge educational system. Economy reform must be first. Political reform must be second. Or else, you will be like Russian, begging for food and money.

China is walking into the same path. Economy reform apply first. Political reform applies second. Eventhough, the ruling class won't accept reform. The pressure from middle class will override the personal interest of the ruling class. If ruling class wants to stay in power and priveliages, they have to apply democratic reform.

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo


actually, chinese literacy rate is 82%, which means only 18% can't read or write.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/ch.html

I think the chinese were very lucky they didn't follow the Russian example, i think if there were multi-party elections the government would still win.


I am not sure I can count on the CIA publication. If the literate rate is accurate from the CIA publication. I would be happy.

However, I have doubt as to how they measure literatecy rate. The peasants in farm,sometimes they still encourage their children to farm rather than read books. The education system in China is bankrupts in the peasant area. Which means there is no standard of education. Only the middle class has a standard education.

I don't like multi-party system in China. There are 100 ethnics. It is proven, tri-party system like France works in democratic world. If we have 22 parties like india. The parties will have to compromise each other for execuation of governing. We will be like India, nothing is done.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by christian

Mediocrates,
Taiwanese government understand in order to have a democratic country. You need a large middle class. You need huge educational system. Economy reform must be first. Political reform must be second. Or else, you will be like Russian, begging for food and money.

China is walking into the same path. Economy reform apply first. Political reform applies second. Eventhough, the ruling class won't accept reform. The pressure from middle class will override the personal interest of the ruling class. If ruling class wants to stay in power and priveliages, they have to apply democratic reform.

No doubt - no one questions that. As I guess Edmund Burke indicated, most successful revolutions arise from the middle class. But that's not important. What is important is that no matter what happens, what the PRC and Taiwan evolve into will be something more democratic but there is nothing, no law or principal that says it has to look like western democracy. For example, by western norms, Singapore is a restricted society. But I'm not sure that has any relevance in the context of Singapore or local societal norms. We would bristle at a government that made chewing gum illegal but is it really a horrible thing? In this case it is disconnect between how the Singaporese view the relationship between democracy and law enforcement and how the west views that relationship. Neither one has anything at all to say about the structure and process of democracy, the basic rights implied or the differences among freedom, liberty and equality, which, after all are different things.

[christian]

Originally posted by Mediocrates


No doubt - no one questions that. As I guess Edmund Burke indicated, most successful revolutions arise from the middle class. But that's not important. What is important is that no matter what happens, what the PRC and Taiwan evolve into will be something more democratic but there is nothing, no law or principal that says it has to look like western democracy. For example, by western norms, Singapore is a restricted society. But I'm not sure that has any relevance in the context of Singapore or local societal norms. We would bristle at a government that made chewing gum illegal but is it really a horrible thing? In this case it is disconnect between how the Singaporese view the relationship between democracy and law enforcement and how the west views that relationship. Neither one has anything at all to say about the structure and process of democracy, the basic rights implied or the differences among freedom, liberty and equality, which, after all are different things.

Well. If we have that kind of freedom in Singapore. We will overwhelmed by Muslim pressures and tactics. The reason US democracy is strong, because US has a strong military, economy, middle class and law. Even a country succeed in invading the US. They can't change the fundamental values of US citizen, like freedom of speech, constitution, etc.

Do you remember the greek history? A barbarian succeed in conquering the greek, because greek has a weak military. However, the ruler eventually influenced by Greek philosphy. Afterward, the entire barbarian tribes converts into greek. It proves the software superiorty is much better than hardware superiroty.

You have that in US. Singapore doesn't. Singapore is a weak country in 1963, who kick out by malaysia. There is no middle class. There is no rule of law. There is no natural resources. Some ruling class at time wants to take control of power by inciting communist slogan. Poverty and illiteracy love to attract radical right or left from all spectrum. If you don't have a strong dictatorship and good leader. Singapore will be like the third world country in Zimbawe. Yes. It is very sad, that we don't have your version of democracy. At least, we can reach the level of secular society.

Chinese society is based on confuciousism. We never have french revolution, imperialism, industral revolution, renaisses, constituion, greek philosphy,etc

If our society based on western value, the country will collapse, because no one experience the fundamental western value before. No one knows the effect of renaissance and constitution. Some crazy dictatorship will be welcome.