Bush : "And they were happy -- they're not happy they're occupied"

[Olivier]

two threads of mine have been edited of late, apparently by a moderator




the titles that have been altered are

"the real cause of the death of Arafat"

as been changed to
"Politicizing the Yasser Arafat's cause of death; or, what we don't know can hurt you.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...1&postcount=70

I do not see what the added insinuation means... or what value added it brings

Bombing of French soldiers : Israelis involved

to

Bombing of French soldiers : Israelis involved, Satan unavailable for comment
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...&postcount=126

I had not into of putting any satanic reference in the discussion

Overall, the objective of this person is harassment.
Arbitrary harassment because he does not share my opinions. Why leave intact threads which are either pure provocation of plain false and modify titles respecting forum rule? Why choose to distord the name of the threads I started?

let's see one example on naming a thread :

France: we will use the UN-mandate to continue the occupation of the Ivory Coast => this is plain lie, no french declaration was made about "occupating ivory coast".

and guess what, the guy who created the thread has been promoted moderator ! Now he can toy with what I say in total impunity...

Now If you want to see delirant threads titles just browse the forum..



Now what should I do ?
- I have first protested to the forum owner (newsguy), who answered that moderators are fully allowed change thread titles. This practice is discretionary and completely arbitrary. Any moderator can change a thread name to what he wants. Just because he feels like it.

Ok, now what do I do ? I can either
=========================
solution #1 - accept that the thread I start have a title perverting what the idea I defend.

solution #2 - stop posting and conceide victory to the harasser. This will also overjoy all here that do not share my opinions.


Now although it is certainly not good to give in to harassment, I have choose solution #2. As I wrote to the forum owner "you might as well have the guts to ask me to leave politely and I certainly would not insist".
But the idea that someone can pull strings and make me say what I do not want to say, just because he finds it fun is completely disgusting to me.

I do not know for you, maybe some of you find it fantastic to read a forum like this, but for me this is more than just hindering freedom of expression, this is plain pervert.

So bye all !


Overall I hope I have contributed adding value to the forum and interest to the reader.
I tried to start threads worthy of real debate and to documents my posts as well as I could! I tried not to answer provocation by avoiding the most aggressive of hateful posters.

On the statistic side, I started no less than 113 threads and wrote 1250 posts, which means I easily dedicated two hundred hours to the forum.

these are some of the threads I am the most proud of , Bush is elected, what can we expect in the next years?
• Good news for the Saudis and the iranians: Crude prices hit 21 year high
• Fight against Global warming : Kyoto Protocol becomes international treaty.
• teaching democracy (it's a picture !)
• If America were Iraq, What Would It be Like?
• Another legend down the drain : Iraq's Disappearing Elections (this one is likely to make a comeback)
• a no-win war against 1.3 billion Muslims
• Israel Has Long Spied on U.S alleges Counterpunch (I think this thread title has been manipulated as well)
• Moore's anti-Bush film wins top Cannes award
• Arab-Israeli Retaliation Tragic, Unhelpful
• Europe must not define itself against America
• about the dangers of blurring the lines between humanitarians workers and armies
• French troops deployed on Sudan border
• Military Draft in the US?
• Reaction in France on Sharon calling french jews to "leave immediately
• Torture by US forces is Iraq is not just isolated incidents (that thread is probably the one with the longuest debate : 481 posts)
• How can the damage of the torture photos be repaired? (with now a variant with the shooting of an unarmed wounded insurged in a mosque)
• Are we de-Baathifying or re-Baathifying this week? (that one was not a success, by it was fun)
• Rebirth at Ground Zero (don’t start optimistics threads here : no success)
• Real politics starting inside iraq? (ditto)
• U.S. Drops Effort to Gain Immunity for Its Troops
• 9/11 panel says there was ‘‘no credible evidence’’ that Saddam had ties with al-Qaida
• Big demonstration in Paris today against anti-Semitism
• europe grows : Israelis rush on europeans passport
• hostilities ending in Falluja? (lucky I put an interrogation mark on that one.. that was started in june)
• France to expel Muslim cleric over abuse

And it makes me extremely sad to realize all these titles can be perverted anytime…



…. So I have decided, that I prefer to remove some of my posts than to have what I mean manipulated against my will, it’s a bit sad, but it seems reasonable to withdraw from a debate when the debate turns out to be a fake. And of course I do not approve of the hatred shown by the people who manipulate this forum to their ends.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Olivier
This is a commentary of GW Bush speech yesterday, by J Cole, an academic expert in Islam.

As in Juan R. Cole of of the University of Michigan?

The same Juan Cole who:

accused Campus Watch of "cyber stalking"?

who blames Israel for the battle in Fallujah? (Say, Olivier, didn't you just do that on another thread? <sarcasm=What a coincidence!/sarcasm>)

who defined Snake Yassin as "a half-blind paraplegic Islamist"?


For all of you, here's Cole's WEB site, so you'll have a better idea who you're dealing with.

Did I mention that he teaches in Ann Arbor, Michigan?

And speaking of Campus Watch, look who's got the most entries on their quotes page.

Most revealing, Olivier.

[Binyamin]

Not even one intelligent or logical line in the whole piece. (except for what he quoted from Bush.)

[Olivier]

two threads of mine have been edited of late, apparently by a moderator




the titles that have been altered are

"the real cause of the death of Arafat"

as been changed to
"Politicizing the Yasser Arafat's cause of death; or, what we don't know can hurt you.
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...1&postcount=70

I do not see what the added insinuation means... or what value added it brings

Bombing of French soldiers : Israelis involved

to

Bombing of French soldiers : Israelis involved, Satan unavailable for comment
http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...&postcount=126

I had not into of putting any satanic reference in the discussion

Overall, the objective of this person is harassment.
Arbitrary harassment because he does not share my opinions. Why leave intact threads which are either pure provocation of plain false and modify titles respecting forum rule? Why choose to distord the name of the threads I started?

let's see one example on naming a thread :

France: we will use the UN-mandate to continue the occupation of the Ivory Coast => this is plain lie, no french declaration was made about "occupating ivory coast".

and guess what, the guy who created the thread has been promoted moderator ! Now he can toy with what I say in total impunity...

Now If you want to see delirant threads titles just browse the forum..



Now what should I do ?
- I have first protested to the forum owner (newsguy), who answered that moderators are fully allowed change thread titles. This practice is discretionary and completely arbitrary. Any moderator can change a thread name to what he wants. Just because he feels like it.

Ok, now what do I do ? I can either
=========================
solution #1 - accept that the thread I start have a title perverting what the idea I defend.

solution #2 - stop posting and conceide victory to the harasser. This will also overjoy all here that do not share my opinions.


Now although it is certainly not good to give in to harassment, I have choose solution #2. As I wrote to the forum owner "you might as well have the guts to ask me to leave politely and I certainly would not insist".
But the idea that someone can pull strings and make me say what I do not want to say, just because he finds it fun is completely disgusting to me.

I do not know for you, maybe some of you find it fantastic to read a forum like this, but for me this is more than just hindering freedom of expression, this is plain pervert.

So bye all !


Overall I hope I have contributed adding value to the forum and interest to the reader.
I tried to start threads worthy of real debate and to documents my posts as well as I could! I tried not to answer provocation by avoiding the most aggressive of hateful posters.

On the statistic side, I started no less than 113 threads and wrote 1250 posts, which means I easily dedicated two hundred hours to the forum.

these are some of the threads I am the most proud of , Bush is elected, what can we expect in the next years?
• Good news for the Saudis and the iranians: Crude prices hit 21 year high
• Fight against Global warming : Kyoto Protocol becomes international treaty.
• teaching democracy (it's a picture !)
• If America were Iraq, What Would It be Like?
• Another legend down the drain : Iraq's Disappearing Elections (this one is likely to make a comeback)
• a no-win war against 1.3 billion Muslims
• Israel Has Long Spied on U.S alleges Counterpunch (I think this thread title has been manipulated as well)
• Moore's anti-Bush film wins top Cannes award
• Arab-Israeli Retaliation Tragic, Unhelpful
• Europe must not define itself against America
• about the dangers of blurring the lines between humanitarians workers and armies
• French troops deployed on Sudan border
• Military Draft in the US?
• Reaction in France on Sharon calling french jews to "leave immediately
• Torture by US forces is Iraq is not just isolated incidents (that thread is probably the one with the longuest debate : 481 posts)
• How can the damage of the torture photos be repaired? (with now a variant with the shooting of an unarmed wounded insurged in a mosque)
• Are we de-Baathifying or re-Baathifying this week? (that one was not a success, by it was fun)
• Rebirth at Ground Zero (don’t start optimistics threads here : no success)
• Real politics starting inside iraq? (ditto)
• U.S. Drops Effort to Gain Immunity for Its Troops
• 9/11 panel says there was ‘‘no credible evidence’’ that Saddam had ties with al-Qaida
• Big demonstration in Paris today against anti-Semitism
• europe grows : Israelis rush on europeans passport
• hostilities ending in Falluja? (lucky I put an interrogation mark on that one.. that was started in june)
• France to expel Muslim cleric over abuse

And it makes me extremely sad to realize all these titles can be perverted anytime…



…. So I have decided, that I prefer to remove some of my posts than to have what I mean manipulated against my will, it’s a bit sad, but it seems reasonable to withdraw from a debate when the debate turns out to be a fake. And of course I do not approve of the hatred shown by the people who manipulate this forum to their ends.

[Mil]

Oli - he is the president. His job demands him to stay the course rather then tell you what you personally want to hear. That he did very well.

[David_in_NYC]

Oliver, what is the point of reproducing pro-Islamist propoganda here? Nobody is going to believe it - and I doubt you believe it, either.

Stuff like this should send up the warning lights:

Saddam Hussein never gave any real support to the Palestinian cause, and he did not pay suicide bombers to blow themselves up. It is alleged that he funneled money to the orphans of such suicide bombers, but I have never seen any documentation for the claim. Supporting orphans is in any case not the same as funding terrorism.

... especially given that Saddam's open $25,000 offer to each and every family of anti-Israel suicide bombers was world-famous and diligently honored.

So what is it that gets you to believe this stuff so reflexively, without even doing a prima facie smell test - brainwashing? brain damage? Complete dedication to the destruction of the nation state? Fear of Islamonazis combined with a mistaken belief that if you capitulate, they'll leave you alone?

[Olivier]

Originally posted by David_in_NYC
Oliver, what is the point of reproducing pro-Islamist propoganda here? Nobody is going to believe it - and I doubt you believe it, either.

if it's really propaganda, you can easily prove it's wrong.

Originally posted by David_in_NYC
... especially given that Saddam's open $25,000 offer to each and every family of anti-Israel suicide bombers was world-famous and diligently honored.

so you agree with Cole?
You agree Saddam gave money to the families but did not fund attacks. One can say it's a "bonus to families of terrorist" others can say it's not a reward, but compensation.
Given the fact these families get their house destroyed by the israeli army, it be considered a compensation.




NB : There is nothing in the law of any civilized country that allows punishing the family and relatives of someone who commits a crime simply because they are family. This policy is cruel and inefficient.

[Mediocrates]

In New York if you live in public housing and your kids are convicted of drug crimes you are evicted. It's called parental influence.

[MGB8]

Olivier,

When you tell a person that their family will get $25,000, worth much more than that in the WB and Gaza, if they go kill some people and themselves in the efforts...that paying someone to committ murder - to committ terrorism also in this case.

Only an idiot would not see this, or someone who refuses to see it.

The only type of person who would refuse to see this is a person who supports, at least in part, the murder of Jews for being Jewish.

So you have shown us what you are, Olivier.

Of course, we new that the new, Vicci France is full of your kind.

[David_in_NYC]

Originally posted by Olivier
You agree Saddam gave money to the families but did not fund attacks. One can say it's a "bonus to families of terrorist" others can say it's not a reward, but compensation.
Given the fact these families get their house destroyed by the israeli army, it be considered a compensation.

The only possible way not to see this as funding terror attacks is to be willingly blind to the obvious. If you give money to people because their family member conducts a terror attack, you are funding those attacks. It even gave rise to a phenomenon of poor children committing terror attacks because Saddam's reward was more valuable than their lives.

It would be a fair assessment to say that your point of view on this matter is explicitly anti-semitic.

NB : There is nothing in the law of any civilized country that allows punishing the family and relatives of someone who commits a crime simply because they are family. This policy is cruel and inefficient.

Yet you are eager to make excuses for attacks on Jews simply because they are Jews. You, sir, are a hypocrite. I do believe you would be more comfortable over at www.jihadforum.com.

[Olivier]

Don't be mistaken, I'm not supporting Saddam giving big sums of money to the relatives of suicide bombers... my opinion is simply it's not enough to accuse him of directing terrorist, and certainly not enough invade Iraq... with the consequences we are just beginning to see.

Maybe you can try to invade and control the WB and Gaza.. ah you already did that?

[TheyAre]

Maybe you can try to invade and control the WB and Gaza.. ah you already did that?

If the West Bank and Gaza Strip were under full military occupation, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, whatever's left of the PLFP, the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades, Fatah - they would cease to exist shortly thereafter. The relaxing of IDF control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip thanks to "peace" agreements is the direct cause of the ability of terrorists to strike Israel.

This premise is not necessarily true. Turkey has had relatively democratic elections since 1950, but this development had no resonances in the rest of the Middle East. Iran went theocratic in 1979, and Khomeini expected everyone in the Middle East to follow suit. No one did. Saudi Arabia is among the world's richest monarchies, but it has not spread monarchy in the mainly republican Middle East. Middle Eastern countries are often fairly insular with regard to politics, and every tub is on its own bottom. There is no guarantee that a "free" and democratic Iraq will have any real influence on the rest of the region.

Either Cole is an idiot, or he is a dishonest bastard. I'm leaning toward both.

The "premise" of his paragraph that I've quoted is not even "not necessarily true." It is completely untrue. He ignores so many facts that I'm amazed you believe anything he said, Olivier.

1. Turkey's society was almost entirely destroyed thanks to World War I. Kemal (Ataturk) saw his chance to take power and did so. He saw how successful the European nations were (they had certainly proved they were capable of killing each other in great carload lots) and pretty much repressed Islamism in favor of a secular dictatorship for Turkey.
2. Turkey is Turkish. Turkey is not Arab.
3. The same way Iran is Persian. Iran is not Arab.
4. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, the UAE, Bahrain - all of those are monarchies. But wait, I thought that Saudi Arabia didn't spread monarchism throughout the Middle East. Maybe that's because monarchial rule is typical of societies like those in the Middle East and the fact that Saudi Arabia is ruled by a monarchy has little or nothing to do with the fact that Kuwait, Jordan, Qatar, and the rest are ruled by monarchies?
5. The influence a free and democratic Iraq (and Cole's use of quotes here when he says free is completely ridiculous) on the rest of the Middle East is completely and utterly irrelevant. 25 million people have been given the chance to live in peace and freedom. I suppose such a concept has never even had a fleeting encounter with Cole's mind.

He sounds smart. But he isn't. He's dishonest to a T.

[Olivier]

Originally posted by TheyAre
Either Cole is an idiot, or he is a dishonest bastard. I'm leaning toward both.

What you say is true, but you are not refuting what Cole said did he said turkey is arab? Did he say iran is arab? Are you dishonest?


Note I'm not saying that cole cannot be refuted. You could use something like the Baath party spreading in the M/E, which is an example that M/E countries are not so "fairly insular with regard to politics".

But i'm not a M/E expert like you.