New Computer Virus ;^)

[abu afak]

And I guess peacelover... you have nothing to say about this
(Do have fun with Ahava)

Originally posted by abu afak
Oh Goodness!!! heavens to Betsy!!! Dear me!!!!!
This joke was so Un-PC /!! So crude!!
(It wasn't.. it was light-hearted.. but let's look)

How could I be so insensitive as to compare a Culture who in every Poll supports Terrorism against Israeli Civilians, and kills as many or more of them than any Virus.... to a Virus.

The comparison is perhaps Only inapt (unfair to microbes) because at least the Viruses don't do it intentionally and don't Celebrate/hand out Candy after they kill someone.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by peacelover
Sure, but would you find a joke slagging Jews off posted by Takeo as funny?

I don't find he has a sense of humor at all, so, no. But that's me. Anyway - sorry you're offended, won't happen again.

It's those ing Laplander lazy bastards, it always is.

[peacelover]

Originally posted by abu afak
And I guess peacelover... you have nothing to say about this
(Do have fun with Ahava)

Not really. You think I am worth less than a microbe. What do you want me to say? To hurl insults back?

Had your joke said terrorists, or even terrorist supporters (even that one I'm not sure about, but we'll go with it), no problem. But it didn't. It said "Palestinians" and thereby incorporated every Palestinian person, degraded every Palestinian person, regardless of whether they voted in any of these polls or not, and regardless of how they voted (incidentally, if you lived opposed terrorism and lived in the territories, would you turn out to register your "no" vote about terrorism? Because I'd be too scared.)

And you didn't compare a "culture" to a virus. You compared a people, composed of many individuals.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by peacelover
Ahava, I have Palestinian blood in me. I appreciate the humanity and compassion you display for the Palestinian people. But I don't like the undertones of that last post...that your blood is better than mine. Sounds like you are saying it is not OK for people to hate you, but it is OK for people to hate me, because I deserve it? PLease tell me that's not what you meant - that it is understandable to hate Palestinians, but not Jews?

It's certainly not how I meant it, I'm sorry you took it that way. Rereading it I know how it may come across. All I was pointing at was the current situation. The current situation is that 80% of the Palestinians support blowing up buses and restaurants with Jewish men, women, children in it. Not the other way around. Now, that's not a genetic thing, of course. It's all circumstances and different factors that play a role here. Environment, hate incitement, being poor, feeling oppressed, having no hope, pride being important in their culture etc.. But I'm unable to use or see these factors as excuses for terrorism or terrorist supporters.
For the Palestinians that disapprove of terrorism, I respect them twice as much as other people who disapprove of terrorism. I understand them being in a difficult situation.
I understand terrorists being hated - I hate them too. I also understand terrorist-supporters being hated. I also recognize that 80% of the Palestinian people support terrorism. This is where I draw my conclusions. It's not for them (talking about that 80%) being born palestinians. It's not for Jewish blood being better than Palestinian blood - that's racist. It's for the society that makes it possible to have so many terrorist supporters.
Talking about "the" Palestinians as terrorists is still generalizing and I keep pointing that out. But I understand it in a way, generalizing is a human trait already and given the fact that an overwhelming majority does support terrorism, one can think "when can one generalize when you can't do it now?"
But I also keep realising that generalization is the first step towards racism, and it's dangerous.

Originally posted by peacelover

It is not OK to hate or degrade any race of people until each and every one of them has been found guilty of the crime you accuse them.

I agree. It's just a hard situation and I think you can imagine what it feels like when a certain people express so much hatred for your people that they dance and cheer when innocent people die - something far most Israelis don't do.

[Ahava]

Besides the funniest part about it for me was not calling it a virus but just how well the parable worked - asking hard drive space, claiming it was there even before Bill Gates was born etc.

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by peacelover
It is not OK to hate or degrade any race of people until each and every one of them has been found guilty of the crime you accuse them.

Peacelover.
I know you are part-palestinian and it must hurt to see jokes like that,but we have traditionally used humour to ridicule our oppressors.
I think I'm a decent person & I would never intentionally hurt you,but we are being massacred by the palestinians in our homes,buses,restaurants and hotels as you know.I really don't think that making jokes,virus types or not,is all that bad,compared to the way we are treated by the muslim world.
And to be honest sometimes I wonder whether palestinian culture is indeed infected with some type of virus which could be responsible for their abhorrent behaviour.
I will apologise to you Peacelover because you are a decent,good hearted person.But not to the majority of palestinians who support and encourage terrorism.

[peacelover]

Originally posted by Ahava
It's certainly not how I meant it, I'm sorry you took it that way. Rereading it I know how it may come across. All I was pointing at was the current situation. The current situation is that 80% of the Palestinians support blowing up buses and restaurants with Jewish men, women, children in it.

So 20% don't. That's a fifth of them, Ahava. A minority, but a lot more than a handful.

Now, that's not a genetic thing, of course. It's all circumstances and different factors that play a role here. Environment, hate incitement, being poor, feeling oppressed, having no hope, pride being important in their culture etc.. But I'm unable to use or see these factors as excuses for terrorism or terrorist supporters.

It's not an excuse IMO either - there is no excuse. But it may be an explanation. You see, 80% may have said they support terror attacks, but of this 80%, how many do it out of pure malice? And how many see it as a necessary evil because they have had it hammered in that it is the only way their lives are going to get any better? And they don't exactly have access to information that's going to tell them otherwise.

Basically, they may support the actions because they think it is in their best interets, but that doesn't mean they necessarily revel in the deaths caused. Obviously some of that 80% do. But all 80%?

Of course it is not OK to support terrorism even in this capacity, and of course I completely understand this upsets you. Believe me, it upsets me too. But it is less reprehensible than for supporting it out of nothing but spite.

But I understand it in a way, generalizing is a human trait already and given the fact that an overwhelming majority does support terrorism, one can think "when can one generalize when you can't do it now?"

Maybe with a higher percentage. Over 95? I don't know. But I don't think it is right to generalise in the way Abu Afak's post did.

I agree. It's just a hard situation and I think you can imagine what it feels like when a certain people express so much hatred for your people that they dance and cheer when innocent people die - something far most Israelis don't do.

Ahava, can you show me that a majority of Palestinians actually cheer and dance in the street when Israelis die? Because otherwise it's not fair to say they as a people do it. We know some do. But just because some of it is captured on the news, it doesn't automatically mean a majority do. See my point above about reasons (I repeat, not excuses) for supporting terror.

And can you understand how Israel Forum feels for me, as a Palestinian? The hatred shown here by some? If it's not being viruses, it's "let's kill them", "let's transfer them", or your Grandmother lied about her treatment at the hands of the Jews etc etc. It has shown me that Israelis might not dance in the street about Palestinian deaths. But I bet a fair few dance inwardly.

Tell me, explain exactly what it is about Palestinians dancing in the street about suicide bombs that offends you? Lack of respect for Jewish lives? Because I sense a fair amount of that eminating from the Jewish quarter towards Palestinians. Just read this damn forum and tell me I'm wrong!

I don't mean to have a go at you Ahava, you're one of my favourite people on this board by far. But I just don't think this is as simple as you're making out.

[frizzer1]

Ok..you know what? It feels terrible to hurt a good person like Peacelover.I haven't changed my mind about the joke,but I can see how she feels.
Ultimately though, everyone suffers I guess.

[peacelover]

Originally posted by frizzer1
Peacelover.
I know you are part-palestinian and it must hurt to see jokes like that,but we have traditionally used humour to ridicule our oppressors.
I think I'm a decent person & I would never intentionally hurt you,but we are being massacred by the palestinians in our homes,buses,restaurants and hotels as you know.I really don't think that making jokes,virus types or not,is all that bad,compared to the way we are treated by the muslim world.
And to be honest sometimes I wonder whether palestinian culture is indeed infected with some type of virus which could be responsible for their abhorrent behaviour.
I will apologise to you Peacelover because you are a decent,good hearted person.But not to the majority of palestinians who support and encourage terrorism.

Thanks Frizzer1, that's a sweet post.

Of course makiing that joke isn't as bad as terror that you unfortunately experience. Not even close. But that doesn't make it right.

The society isn't infected by a virus. It is infected by a leadership who doesn't put their people's interests first. The Palestinians grow up being indoctrinated. I think the key to peace is winning their minds, because until you do that there will always be willing terrorists. Thing is, I don't think it's for Israel to win them over. I think it's for their leadership to promote tolerance and peace - because until their society is educated about how to get peace, I don't think it's ever going to come.

But I digress. Even if there is a virus permeating their society (maybe indoctrination is a virus of sorts?) that's still not the same as saying they themselves are a virus.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by peacelover
Not really. You think I am worth less than a microbe. What do you want me to say? To hurl insults back?

Had your joke said terrorists, or even terrorist supporters (even that one I'm not sure about, but we'll go with it), no problem. But it didn't. It said "Palestinians" and thereby incorporated every Palestinian person, degraded every Palestinian person, regardless of whether they voted in any of these polls or not, and regardless of how they voted (incidentally, if you lived opposed terrorism and lived in the territories, would you turn out to register your "no" vote about terrorism? Because I'd be too scared.)

And you didn't compare a "culture" to a virus. You compared a people, composed of many individuals.

The post was a Joke.
(This post however is not an apology.. I'm not in a PC mood)

There are many similar 'Computer analogy' jokes like 'Girlfriend/Wife 1.0' etc.
http://www-ti.informatik.uni-tuebing...irlfriend.html

Now if you want to take it personally/offensively as a Woman instead of seeing it's humor ...and say it degrades half the World's people... TOO BAD.
Your hang up.

As to using the term "Terrorist supporters" instead of 'Palestinians' .. as I pointed out..
Most Palestinians do support Terror and support it against Civilians as well.

Is this Racist? NO..
Jews and Palestinians to a large degree share the same race.
(so don't involve your offended "blood" either)
Is it 'Culturalist'? YES.
Is it Deserved? YES
Is that too bad? .. alas... YES too.

and again...
Do viruses kill with intent? NO
Do viruses celebrate after? NO
So I again say it is the Microbes who are the offended party.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by peacelover

So 20% don't. That's a fifth of them, Ahava. A minority, but a lot more than a handful.

I know, and I'm glad there is this 20% minority. But people are mostly judged by the behaviour/thoughts of the majority of them. I don't think this "group-thinking" is the right thing to do, you have to try to see the individuals instead of a homogenous group, but people tend to think in groups. I'm no exception, though I try as much as I can to see individuals.

It's not an excuse IMO either - there is no excuse. But it may be an explanation. You see, 80% may have said they support terror attacks, but of this 80%, how many do it out of pure malice? And how many see it as a necessary evil because they have had it hammered in that it is the only way their lives are going to get any better? And they don't exactly have access to information that's going to tell them otherwise.

These are thoughts that have gone through my head aswell, as I can't believe that so many people would support those things in such a concrete way, being aware of what it means. But what keeps bothering me is the fact that they were asked about this specific attack, the one on the Maxim restaurant just 1 day before Yom Kippur. The day after the attack we prayed in shul for the victims. This 80% gave approval to this specific attack. That's IMO worse than saying "I support terrorism" because one can say that casually, one can not really think in concrete terms, one can mean targetting non-civilians, etc. But this...it just shows they must be quite aware of what they're actually supporting.

Basically, they may support the actions because they think it is in their best interets, but that doesn't mean they necessarily revel in the deaths caused. Obviously some of that 80% do. But all 80%?

Quite possible that's a reason for a lot of them. No, not 80% cheer when Jews die.

Of course it is not OK to support terrorism even in this capacity, and of course I completely understand this upsets you. Believe me, it upsets me too. But it is less reprehensible than for supporting it out of nothing but spite.

I agree.

Ahava, can you show me that a majority of Palestinians actually cheer and dance in the street when Israelis die? Because otherwise it's not fair to say they as a people do it. We know some do. But just because some of it is captured on the news, it doesn't automatically mean a majority do. See my point above about reasons (I repeat, not excuses) for supporting terror.

I don't think a majority does this, no. But it's a question of emotions. When seeing the results of another suicide attack..it breaks my heart. And when I then see Palestinians cheering, and not just those dressed up as terrorist, I cannot rationalize anymore. It's so in and in sick. i don't actually know how many Palestinians do cheer, whether on the inside or the outside. I'd like to know actually, as to give myself some peace of mind.

And can you understand how Israel Forum feels for me, as a Palestinian? The hatred shown here by some? If it's not being viruses, it's "let's kill them", "let's transfer them", or your Grandmother lied about her treatment at the hands of the Jews etc etc. It has shown me that Israelis might not dance in the street about Palestinian deaths. But I bet a fair few dance inwardly.

I understand, and some radical statements make me cringe aswell. But I have understanding for it too, maybe you think I have too much understanding for it and I wouldn't blame you at all, but as a Jew I'm naturally affected very much by what happens to Israel. The situation is such that intolerance rises. It's a very bad thing, but it's also a very bad situation.

Tell me, explain exactly what it is about Palestinians dancing in the street about suicide bombs that offends you? Lack of respect for Jewish lives? Because I sense a fair amount of that eminating from the Jewish quarter towards Palestinians. Just read this damn forum and tell me I'm wrong!

Most of it is emotion. Seeing people dance when I'm heartbroken and dozens of worlds are destroyed..there is nothing more sinister and cruel. It's inhumane. Yes, lack of respect for Jewish lives. But not just Jewish lives, everything Jewish. No respect for anything. Like the attack in the hotel with Pesach (Passover) on Seder evening. Lack of respect for any kind of values.

I don't mean to have a go at you Ahava, you're one of my favourite people on this board by far. But I just don't think this is as simple as you're making out.

I know it's not simple. I just want to say I really admire your understanding of Israel, your open-mindedness and fairness.

[Ahava]

Abu Afak, do you ever try to imagine how you'd feel if you were a Palestinian? How would you feel if you had Palestinian blood, like peacelover? How would you take this joke?

[peacelover]

Originally posted by abu afak
The post was a Joke.

I know. And all I ever said intially is that as a joke, it was inappropriate. This has escalated from there.

(This post however is not an apology.. I'm not in a PC mood)

Are you ever?

There are many similar 'Computer analogy' jokes like 'Girlfriend/Wife 1.0' etc.
http://www-ti.informatik.uni-tuebing...irlfriend.html

Now if you want to take it personally/offensively as a Woman instead of seeing it's humor ...and say it degrades half the World's people... TOO BAD.

Whether or not a joke is funny depends a lot on who is telling it, and their intentions. If a male chauvinist tells jokes about women, it might be offensive, because you suspect they actually mean it. If someone who you know doesn't hold sexist opinions tells it, then it's funny.

The fact you now claim that not only are Palestinians a virus, but that the comparison is unflattering to the virus shows my suspicions about you and the joke were correct.

As to using the term "Terrorist supporters" instead of 'Palestinians' .. as I pointed out..
Most Palestinians do support Terror and support it against Civilians as well.

Most isn't all, and if Ahava's figures are correct, most isn't even almost all. As such the two terms are not sysnonymous, and you shouldn't be using them as asuch.

Jews and Palestinians to a large degree share the same race.
(so don't involve your offended "blood" either)

Speaking of blood is a figure of speech where I come from.

Is it 'Culturalist'? YES.
Is it Deserved? YES
Is that too bad? .. alas... YES too.

Matter of opinion.

and again...
Do viruses kill with intent? NO
Do viruses celebrate after? NO
So I again say it is the Microbes who are the offended party.

Well, philosophical questions indeed.

Do they kill with intent? Can a non-conscious being have intent? Can a microbe celebrate in a way which is ascertainable to the human eye?

So you might say the comparison is flawed from the outset, being based on an unworkable foundation.

But even pleading in the alternative - I woauld say a microbe kills with intent in as much as a microbe can because that is what it exists for.

You're also not taking into account the fact that people are commonly accepted to have some form of human rights and worth as a person which viruses are not. That's why you're out of order on that one no matter what you say about intent.

You don't see anyone Palestinian as human? Too bad... alas... your hang up.... whatever. They are.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by peacelover


I know. And all I ever said intially is that as a joke, it was inappropriate. This has escalated from there.

Hardly. This is Israel Forum.. a joke about Palestinians is appropriate and this was in no way beyond the pale.
Indeed I have spoken to/admonished Lamplighter publicly when I thought he was truly offensive (in sentiment as well as language) saying he was having a Pina Colada over Palestinian deaths.

Most isn't all, and if Ahava's figures are correct, most isn't even almost all. As such the two terms are not sysnonymous, and you shouldn't be using them as asuch.

Apologism.. this is a concession to My truth. Thanks

Matter of opinion.

\More Apologism and concession.. Going from Bad defense to no defense

Well, philosophical questions indeed.

Do they kill with intent? Can a non-conscious being have intent? Can a microbe celebrate in a way which is ascertainable to the human eye?

So you might say the comparison is flawed from the outset, being based on an unworkable foundation.

But even pleading in the alternative - I woauld say a microbe kills with intent in as much as a microbe can because that is what it exists for.

You're also not taking into account the fact that people are commonly accepted to have some form of human rights and worth as a person which viruses are not. That's why you're out of order on that one no matter what you say about intent.

You don't see anyone Palestinian as human? Too bad... alas... your hang up.... whatever. They are.

Wrong again... and lots of Gibrish about 'Human Rights' without Human Responsibility.
(You might want to try that concept on a Palestinian board)

A microbe does not have conscious decision power and therefore no intent. The comparison was not of two peoples, but is not 'flawed' but instructive for that reason.
Palestinians are Killing with Full intent (and the majority will of their people) and then many celebrate... ie after the Hebrew U bombing.
Unless you want to argue they have no intent either.

[peacelover]

Originally posted by abu afak
If I were a 'Palestinian' .. whatever it is exactly that means, I would be trying to change my unfortunate Culture and it's leadership.

How? Tell me how I can and I will! I am speaking out against terror, and against the leadership, how more can I change it?

Of course, if I just felt some vague tie to being 'Palestinian' (like her apparently) then I would merrily chit-chat on Israel Forum and Not really wonder why they don't like us as a people. (I mean Heck! just because we're blowing up their School buses Daily!)

Vague tie? What the hell would you know about how I feel? It's more complex than that Abu, and something that eats at me daily. Not that I'd expect you to care, seeing as I am nothing more than a microbe.

Incidentally, seeing as you are so interested in your ridiculous tort of false light, has a school bus actually been blown up every day?

You are all Lost, and lost in PC swamp Hell.

I'm not a PC activist usually. I don't think the joke was appropriate, and had you just come out and said that you knew Pals weren't really viruses or anything like, no problem. But I knew you wouldn't, because you don't think like that.

You could say my main objection is to you thinking they truly are viruses as opposed to the joke itself - had I thought you were actually joking, I wouldn't have objected. I always suspected that you weren't.

http://www.islamcan.com/forum/islamb...oard1/85.shtml

Now tell Peacelover to get her behind over to some truly hateful Arab Boards if she's so concerned about 'offensive'.

Like I did on Sound of Egypt? Mira will verify that I did. One thing you cannot accuse me of, if you want to retain any of what credibility you still have, is only looking out for my own.