Bible and Qur'an state quite clearly that the right of the Israelites to to the Land

Batman · 04-25-2004, 08:08 PM

does not depend on conquest and colonization. This right flows from the will of almighty God Himself. .....

SHEIKH SAYS

excerpts-------but read the whole thing if you can!

Both the Jewish and Islamic Scriptures teach that God, through His chosen servant Moses, decided to free the offspring of Jacob from slavery in Egypt and to constitute them as heirs of the Promised Land. Whoever claims that Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is something new and rooted in human politics denies divine revelation and divine prophecy as explicitly expressed in our Holy Books (the Bible and Qur'an).

The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel always conveniently ignore this point - the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

Therefore, from an Islamic point of view, there is NO fundamental reason which prohibits Muslims from recognizing Israel as a friendly State. ........

Unfortunately, there are also naive and foolish Israelis who believe, incredibly to me, that they will achieve "peace" with their Arab neighbours by giving the murderer "Arafat" [el-Husseini] a State, an army, etc. This is insane. You Jews are supposedly famous for your intelligence. How can some of your "leaders" be so stupid? ..................

Viewing the Jewish return to Israel as a Western invasion and Zionists as recent colonizers is new. It has no basis in authentic Islamic faith.
..............

Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology.

Such a false transformation of Islam was in fact made by the late Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin el-Husseini. He is the one person most responsible, both morally and materially, for the repeated Arab defeats in their conflict with the Jews in Israel.

Husseni not only incited Arabs against Jews. He also encouraged the torture and murder of all Arabs who correctly understood that Arab cooperation with Jews was a precious opportunity for the development of the Land of Israel. Husseini ended his woeful life by putting his perverted religious teachings at the service of the evil and pagan Nazis.

.......

Oh Jerusalem · 04-25-2004, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by Batman
The Qur'an relates the words by which Moses ordered the Israelites to conquer the Land:

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favour of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

Yes but that's just a recount of history, according to the Quran. It does not mean that Israel has not lost it's rights to it.

Islam will argue, similar to most Christians, that God has abandoned the People of the Book.

There is nothing here to convince Moslems otherwise.

Moreover - and those who try to use Islam as a weapon against Israel always conveniently ignore this point - the Holy Qur'an explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment - where it says:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

Here, too, it's referring to the past. Go up a little to the beginning of the same Surah and here's what you'll find that's applicable today:

1. Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

2. We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding): "Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs."

3. O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.

4. And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.

8. It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).

9. Verily this Qur'an doth guide to that which is most right (or stable), and giveth the Glad Tidings to the Believers who work deeds of righteousness, that they shall have a magnificent reward;

10. And to those who believe not in the Hereafter, (it announceth) that We have prepared for them a Penalty Grievous (indeed).

The author that you quote, Sheik Palazzi, is a loner and frankly an oddball in the world of Islam. I have strong intuitive doubts about his motives and abilities to represent Islam. My post here is an example of why.

**MGB8** · 08-31-2007, 06:13 PM

We are told again and again that Islam means "submission," as in "Man's submission to G-d."

And yet, when discussing Israel, the key Arabic word used is not "submission," but "resistance." And then "tragedy" or "catastrophe."

It makes you wonder, are these things related, according to Islamic theology. The Quran is clear that Israel is promised to the Israelites - the tribes of Moses. The logic which is used to deny this basic Quranic (ie. from G-d, according to Muslims) decree is MAN-MADE.

It consists of several arguments: the Jews abrogated their claim to the land (not in the Quran); the Israelis aren't really the descendants of the Israelites (obviously based on human "logic" and "argument," not based in the Quran); dar al-Harb, dar al-Islam logic (that which is the house of the infidels should not be passed back to them) - but that too fails, because Jews are not kafir, they are people of the book, and this logic still doesn't override G-d's explicit promise to the Israelites.

Ever since the Islamic world has decided to RESIST G-d's command, as opposed to submit to it, they have had tragedy and catastrophe. Oh, they may argue that wasn't true when they conquered the land in the first millennia, and held it. But the Jews had been exiled - they weren't in control of the land that "Allah" promised them. The Muslims were not trying to oppose a Quranic decree. Now they are.

Maybe it's time for the Islamic world to put 2 and 2 together. Certainly, it's time for Jews and Zionists to remind the Islamic world of exactly what the Quran says regarding Israel, and the fact that all the logic in the world they try to use to avoid the Quranic decree is merely man-made "Resistance" to their G-d's word. The opposite of Submission.

farmall · 09-01-2007, 11:17 AM

"Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology."

False? Why shouldn't a superstition morph into a more politically useful superstition?
Religions are inherently subject to becoming whatever believers want at the moment. They do not exist apart from what believers think and do.

If MUSLIMS believe Islam is anti-Zionist, than ISLAM IS de-facto anti-Zionist and any differing "de-jure" definition is perfectly worthless.
Don't put any store by their book of nonsense and judge them by their actions only.

**MGB8** · 09-01-2007, 11:47 AM

Yes, and no.

Yes, Islam is what Muslims say it is. No, what Muslims say Islam is isn't immutable - it had and does change over time (just as other religions adjust over time). The Muslim commentator above is an example of that.

Making theological arguments against "Islamism" via the Quran is a powerful tool. It decreaces the certainty of Islamists that their visions of conquests are correct. Further, it can shake the support (tacit, or otherwise) of Islamists by non-political Muslims.

If the argument is strong and makes intrinsic sense, then it can destroy the ideology. For example, it wasn't the success of Capitalism that destroyed the USSR, it was the bread lines and alternatives - the failure of communism and the common sense arguments which linked that failure to Communism.

Likewise - using Islamic logic to show how certain ideologies don't work - linking both the theology and the failure (you aren't suffering in spite of Islamic theology, you are suffering *Pursuant to* Islamic theology) - may be the most effective thing we can do.

Originally Posted by farmall

"Concluding that anti-Zionism is the logical outgrowth of Islamic faith is wrong. This conclusion represents the false transformation of Islam from a religion into a secularized ideology."

False? Why shouldn't a superstition morph into a more politically useful superstition?
Religions are inherently subject to becoming whatever believers want at the moment. They do not exist apart from what believers think and do.

If MUSLIMS believe Islam is anti-Zionist, than ISLAM IS de-facto anti-Zionist and any differing "de-jure" definition is perfectly worthless.
Don't put any store by their book of nonsense and judge them by their actions only.