Arab Viewpoint

[antizionist]

what you all seem to so casually forget is that you so called israelis are just europeans. you all fled europe to escape the nazis. remember? none of you are from the middle east! what is happening from the palestinian side is simply a people fighting for their land back. what is happening from the israeli side is a barbaric occupation of someone elses home. the 1967 line is also false. you are invaders! let me give you a history lesson...

ALL of europe was anti jew, not just germany. jews were treated like you now treat palestinians, with one exception. the perpetrators of crimes against jews in europe were their fellow europeans, NOT AN INVADING FORCE. you are all invading someone elses home, that's why there are suicide bombers and militants. it's one thing to imigrate to another country, it's a whole different affair when you TAKE another country.

here's a novel idea...why don't you all go back to europe and claim retribution from the people who did you wrong in the first place? i'll tell you. you are all cowards. that's why you fear little 10 year old boys with rocks. that is why it takes an army of you, fed by the american military, to take on a handful of young men with molotov cocktails.

if there is one thing that jews (most, not all, i have met many sensible jews) learned from world war 2 was how to be nazi's. you all just changed the name to zionist instead. and to think that you shame your religon by insiting that zionism and judaism are one. it is a fact that your religon is thousands of years old, and of middle eastern origon. it is also a fact that zionism was born in europe in the 1800's by a swiss man, no where near the birth of judaism and nothing to do with it.

you must learn to seperate political movents from religon. zionism teaches you that "jew" is a race and a religon. well, let me tell you something, if jew is a race, then how the hell can ariel sharon (a russian, i.e. slavik race) and shimon peres (an argentine, i.e. spanish) both be jews? jew is a religious term NOT a racial term. let's take it to arabs now shall we? if i am an arab, does it mean that i am a muslim? of course not, because muslim is not a race. it, like jew, is a religious term. arab is a racial term. and the racial term that describes most of you so-called isrealis is slavik.

most of you are from eastern europe. the same eastern europe that your german brothers slaughtered you in and taught you to hate in. so what do you do about it? like most jews of the time, you lived in fear. until a swiss jew named theodore hertzle (trying to realize his own political ambitions) tricked you into believing you are a race, different from anyone else. it worked because it gave you pride in something in a desperate, tragic time.

hertzle was no hero, he was a politician. he mobilized you all and tricked you into exporting naziism to the middle east under a new name, zionism. don't kid yourselves, jew is not a race and zionism is no different than naziism. jews can be arabs, africans, slavs, whatever. and so can racists. and that is exactly what you all have become.

read the history books, you fools, they will teach you a lot.

[L@mplighterM]

"read the history books, you fools, they will teach you a lot."


You've got it all wrong.

Here's your mark a F for Fail.

[Gatorade]

Jews have lived in what is now Israel for a couple thousand years.
And at least as far back as 1845, Jews were the majority of the population in Jerusalem.

Just out of curiosity how long does a person have to live in a place to be consider it their native land?

[L@mplighterM]

Just out of curiosity how long does a person have to live in a place to be consider it their native land?

If you're an Arab we're not talking years, months, weeks, days or hours most likely a split second.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by antizionist
what is happening from the israeli side is a barbaric occupation of someone elses home. the 1967 line is also false. you are invaders! let me give you a history lesson...

Well, anti-zionist, You're entire message is so off-base, that it would be laughable if not for the fact that so many misinformed and disinformed Arabs seem to believe it.

To begin, your "history lesson" sounds like it was hatched in some al Qaeda Islamic extremist school for junior suicide bombers. Maybe Osama bin Ladin, Arafat bin Ladin, Saddam Hussein or Mullah Omar would buy this distortion of the historical facts, but certainly not anyone who has access to the free Western media.

Nonetheless, we know that the Israeli/Arab dispute is the result of a land dispute and the rise of extremist Islam, which advocates the genocide of all non-Muslims.

As for the Islamic extremist surge, there is nothing really debatable here, other than how to resond to it, so I will leave this topic alone for the moment.

As for the land dispute, I understand your view that the land belongs to the Arabs, although I will respectfully remind you that the Israeli view is that the Arabs are merely squatters in the Jewish homeland. But at the same time, the vast majority of Israelis support peaceful coexistence with a Palestinian state next door, while the vast majority of Palestinians support the Jihad-genocide of the Jewish people.

In any event, I will also respond to your point that Jews should leave Israel and return to Europe by reminding you of 2 things:

1. About 70% of Israelis originate from Arab countries, not from Europe, as most Arabs would like to delude themselves for various reasons.

2. The Palestinians themselves originate from the Saudi Desert, and so it sure would be helpful to end the dispute if they also returned to their native desert patch and vacated the Jewish homeland which they now occupy.

So you see, Mr. anti-zionist, to better understand the conflict which you are apparently very passionate about, you should take some well-meaning advice from a Zionist like me and go get a refund for the al Qaeda history textbooks you purchased.

The money would be much better spent on Internet access where you will be able to read some facts not censored by your Arab dictatorship regimes, nor by your Islamic mullahs in their mad, mad "madrases".

[Northlander]

Well. First I might as well say that Im not arab nor Israeli. Im from sweden and Im white middleclass and have no religous belives whatsoever, as most of my fellow countrymen I might add.
I can also assure all you people who dont agree to my opinions that swedish schools and media do NOT teach any al qaeda propaganda. Never the less I must say I share some of antizionists oppinions about race and religion. Jews are not a race, I think we can all agree on that.

The issue of who has the right to the country seems to be the problem. We would have a real nice little war if also the christian people of europe makes a claim here. As far as I know there have been christians living in the middle east for long time too. Minorities of course but nevertheless. Those arguments about who lived there longest are not interesting and using religous arguments like "god gave us that country" is not even worth commenting. Seeing this the answer must be that the only sollution in the long run is deviding the areas and live side by side or preferably live together in the same area. It has been done before. Time heals most wounds.

There are a few things that are obvious for the neutral here. First that its no use to believe in the destruction of israel. Those arabs calling for that only hurt their own cause. That is the single thing that prevents me from giving my full support for them basically. Israel is there to stay. Its not an option to force all those people leaving from there even if it was at all possible.
But those calls are mostly made from desperate non educated persons. Growing up as a young palestinian is something no westerner can ever relate to. They have no future and they are under occupation and alot of stress.
There is always a reason for terrorism. We dont have terrorism in sweden and there is a reason for that too. Take away everything for someone and he will have nothing to lose.
As long as Israel continues to expand their settlements they will prolong the war. They must take the conflict with their extreme right and the settlers. Ironically the best defense for Israel in the long run is economical prosperity for a palestinian state nextdoor. Its not hard to see which parts of the world that live in peace and where people have good lives. Take away the economical safety from ordinary people in western europe for example and we would soon have situations similar to that in the middle east. Old conflicts flaming up. Racial problems.
Israel will lose all its support in europe if they keep making war crimes and refuse to obey the resolutions of the UN. I can see it happen right now here. Israeli tourists will have problems abroad. Eventually not even USA will be able to support them and when that day comes I would be very worried if I was an ordinary Israeli in Tel Aviv. Israel is supposed to be a democracy and Sharon therefore has the support from the people. The opinion that spreads around europe now is that in that case most israelis support what happens in Jenin. People get buried alive in their own houses. Children getting shot for doing nothing worse than throwing rocks. That its tragical that israelis dies too in bombings doesnt really matter. As long as they keep protecting the settlements and are having this racist system that reminds us all about south africa its the opinion that they are asking for trouble. I have studied alot of military conflicts in my days and I can see the fact that terrorism is just a weaker opponents way of making an offensive. No side will win a military victory here. If a palestinian state was built with money from the west and the support of Israel life for people in Ramallah for example would almost instantanously be very different. Some lunatics would still shout for the destruction of israel but their support from ordinary arabs would dissapear rapidly since people would care more about building up a normal state. Every time israel would go in with troops everything would be destoyed. But with support from the rest of the world, neutral troops from Europe for the first years is one way, and with actions from both palestinian authorities and israel,terror would sooner or later end. As things goes on now. Israel just garantees itself years of terror attacks.
Everytime they avenge one attack they give birth for two more.
So until they obey UN resolutions and stop to expand settlements people like me and most of my friends continue to support the palestinian cause. And that support just keep on growing by the day. Morally and now even economically.
I would prefer to give money for rebuilding areas that I know dont get destroyed by bulldozers.

[victot]

hey anti-zionist...

i'm sorry you have such a negative view of zionism.

i just wanna point out... jews are jews. for thousands of years, jews had left israel but put a strong emphasis on who they were, that they are jews, decendants of the israelites of israel, who's patriarach is abraham. it wasn't easy throughout the centuries to identify oneself as a jew, in europe or elsewhere; let it at least be acknowledged at this point that they are indeed jewish.
The fact that jews still have last names like cohen, and that there are still attributes that lots of jews have that make them "look jewish" shows that jews are indeed a people.

And, wouldn't the fact that you feel that jews AREN'T a race, diminish your claim that they in israel are acting like nazis?

The jews of israel aren't going to go back to europe, that wasn't their home, and it DEFINATELY isn't their home now. like it or not, palestinians and jews in israel are both fighting for what they truly feely is their home, palestinians not any more passionately then jews.

for thousands of years, for three times each day, in the central Jewish prayer, the Amidah, orthodox Jews recite prayers concerning the importance of Jerusalem, and pray towards it, towards the temple. even when in exile, jews never forget where they were from, and the ingathering and return to israel is something which is found in the bible. the concept of zionism is certainly based on religeous grounds.

here is an example:
(Ezekiel 34:12-15, 28)

"As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country... And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid."


(also check out Ezekiel 34:12-15, 28, Psalm 80, Psalm 102:13, In Jeremiah 30:10, Ezekiel 34:28, Micah 4:4 and Zephaniah 3:13, Jeremiah 31:10, Isaiah 41: 8-16, Ezekiel 20:41, In Zephaniah 3:15, Deuteronomy 30:9, Jeremiah 32:41, Isaiah 62:5 and Zephaniah 3:17 Ezekiel 36:24-26 ...)


finally, i know israel's treatment of the palestinians hasn't been great, i hope there can be a solution where both peoples can have their own land and live in peace and prosperity (palestinians getting west bank, gaza...)

but to be fair, a fact which protestors accross the world seem to forget, is that from its very inception, even before the jews in israel had wronged ANYONE, in 1948, so many arab countries and people in the middle east, palestinians, iraqis, lebabon, egypt, syria, jordan... had attacked the newly formed state, with the intention of "throwing the jews into the sea"
given that israel is living in an environment where there are so many people around it chanting for its destruction, and who kill innocent israeli civilians...
this is not a platform for peace and negoation. protest for a peaceful middle east, which respects everyone's rights, palestinians, jews, and other arabs...
and then israel could look for the righteousness and fairness and social change aspects which would have them giving strategic and holy land to their enemies for so many years.
but given that everyone else in the middle east seem so wanting to destroy israel, israel will have trouble treating everyone as kindly and gently as possible...

[Mediocrates]

Most Israelis are actually Sephardic not European.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by antizionist
what you all seem to so casually forget is that you so called israelis are just europeans. you all fled europe to escape the nazis. remember? none of you are from the middle east! what is happening from the palestinian side is simply a people fighting for their land back. what is happening from the israeli side is a barbaric occupation of someone elses home. the 1967 line is also false. you are invaders! let me give you a history lesson...

I think Newsguy gave you a history lesson. Your most basic assumption is false... at least half of Israel's Jews fled oppressive Arab countries!

Now, tell us whether you still think that Israelis are all Europeans -- or do you admit you were wrong?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by antizionist

if there is one thing that jews (most, not all, i have met many sensible jews) learned from world war 2 was how to be nazi's. you all just changed the name to zionist instead. and to think that you shame your religon by insiting that zionism and judaism are one. it is a fact that your religon is thousands of years old, and of middle eastern origon. it is also a fact that zionism was born in europe in the 1800's by a swiss man, no where near the birth of judaism and nothing to do with it.

Actually, it is a well-known and documented fact that most of the Arab world was allied with Nazi Germany. The Mufti of Jerusalem spent the last part of WW II in Berlin trying to persuade his friend Adolph Hitler to extend the "final solution" to Palestine.

Today, Palestinians have embraced a culture of death not seen since Nazi Germany. Like the Nazis, they seek to exterminate Jewish civilians merely for being Jews. Unlike the Nazis, they are pathetically incompetent. And this time, we Jews have come to the battle prepared. Your terrorist idols have just been dealt a crushing blow!

Zionism is merely Jewish nationalism. Jews have as much right to a state of their own as Palestinians. Actually, they have more right to a state of their own, because Palestinians are really not a separate nation. They are indistiguishable from the Egyptians and Jordanians. They never once asked for their own state when they were ruled by Egypt and Jordan. The clamor for a Palestinian state is nothing but a ruse to create a better staging ground for the racist Arab war against the Jews.

you must learn to seperate political movents from religon. zionism teaches you that "jew" is a race and a religon. well, let me tell you something, if jew is a race, then how the hell can ariel sharon (a russian, i.e. slavik race) and shimon peres (an argentine, i.e. spanish) both be jews? jew is a religious term NOT a racial term. let's take it to arabs now shall we? if i am an arab, does it mean that i am a muslim? of course not, because muslim is not a race. it, like jew, is a religious term. arab is a racial term. and the racial term that describes most of you so-called isrealis is slavik.

Yes, Judaism is a religion, but Jews are also distinguished in other ways, and it would be more accurate to simply say that Jews are an ethnic group. (Again, you get an "F": many Jews are not at all religious.)

Who is unable to separate political movements from religion? The vast majority of Jews support the Western principle of separation of church and state. Islam rejects separation of church and state as the way of "infidels."

Gee, you need more than just a history lesson. Which side has groups with names like "Islamic jihad"? Clearly, Israel is motivated by the desire to defend its citizens from brutal terrorist attacks. The Palestinians are largely motivated by militant Islam.

It would help things immensely if the Palestinians would simply step into the 21st century. While you are lecturing us on separating religion from politics, maybe you should consider telling your Palestinian friends that, no, suicide bombers will not go to paradise to enjoy 72 virgins. Maybe you should speak out against Muslim clerics who incite their congregationists to "Kill Jews wherever you find them."

[L@mplighterM]

Well. First I might as well say that Im not arab nor Israeli. Im from sweden and Im white middleclass and have no religous belives whatsoever, as most of my fellow countrymen I might add.
I can also assure all you people who dont agree to my opinions that swedish schools and media do NOT teach any al qaeda propaganda. Never the less I must say I share some of antizionists oppinions about race and religion. Jews are not a race, I think we can all agree on that.

It all depends on what you classify as a school doesn’t it?. Although there’s no state sponsored schools that teach Islamic propaganda you have no idea what it thought in the religious schools in the mosques. Europe has 23 Million Muslims and Sweden has its share. Some estimates calculate that around a half are Islamic Fundamentalists in some countries and some 3% +/-to a high of 10 % +/- are prone to violence.

Growing up as a young palestinian is something no westerner can ever relate to.

But you can???? I thought you said you lived in Sweden.


Segment and link to article about Islamic Fundamentalism written by a specialist:


But how many of these people are terrorists, so-called “sleepers,” no one knows. They hide themselves in the above-named organizations, in certain mosque congregations, and in charitable organizations. Despite the fact that the German Office of Constitutional Protection warned of these activities for many years, politicians are only now reacting. After Germany, Tibi claims that Sweden, Holland, and Belgium have the most “sleepers” in Europe.

How widespread is Islamic militancy? According to Tibi, a distinction must be made between “worldview fundamentalists,” who may embrace the hope for Islam’s future supremacy, while rejecting terror—and militant activists or terrorists. In Pakistan for example, Tibi estimates the number of fundamentalists at half the population, but the percentage of those ready to resort to violence is roughly 3-5 percent.

http://www.worldpress.org/europe/0102dagens.htm

Jews are not a race, I think we can all agree on that.

It all depends on how you classify race and in any event what bearing does it have on anything? I don’t think you could argue that they don’t have a distinct identity.


The issue of who has the right to the country seems to be the problem. We would have a real nice little war if also the christian people of europe makes a claim here. As far as I know there have been christians living in the middle east for long time too.

Why only pick on the Middle East I herewith claim Sweden so why don’t we have a war. In any event Christians living in the Middle East isn’t the proplem.




Israel will lose all its support in europe if they keep making war crimes and refuse to obey the resolutions of the UN. I can see it happen right now here. Israeli tourists will have problems abroad. Eventually not even USA will be able to support them and when that day comes I would be very worried if I was an ordinary Israeli in Tel Aviv. Israel is supposed to be a democracy and Sharon therefore has the support from the people. The opinion that spreads around europe now is that in that case most israelis support what happens in Jenin. People get buried alive in their own houses. Children getting shot for doing nothing worse than throwing rocks.

If you have evidence of war crimes hand it in to the UN or Red Cross of course you could always manufacture some. Rocks kill and is considered a weapon therefore anyone that’s assaulted with rocks should be allowed to eliminate it.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by antizionist
what is happening from the palestinian side is simply a people fighting for their land back.

I read the history book and COULDN'T FIND A NAME FOR A SINGLE PALASTENIAN KING OR LEADER that indicates there was a palastenian state here along any period of the couple of thousands years of human history!

It seems that I'm a fool and you are the expert and smart guy here, so can you help me with that please? Thanks!

(please, either you answer directly or shutup for ever!)

[Gatorade]

On Worldnetdaily this very topic was covered today. AntiZionist are you still here or are you now hiding in a cave?
--------------
The Jews took no one's land

Let me state this plainly and clearly: The Jews in Israel took no one's land.

When Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed. He didn't see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. The land we now know as Israel was practically deserted.

By the beginning of the 20th century, that began to change. Jews from all over the world began to return to their ancestral homeland – the Promised Land Moses and Joshua had conquered millennia earlier, Christians and Jews believe, on the direct orders of God.

That's not to say there wasn't always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx. Yes, that Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews.

"The number of Jews has greatly risen in the last few decades, in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property," the book states.

Even though the Jews were persecuted, still they came to Jerusalem and represented the overwhelming majority of the population as early as 1906. And even though Muslims today claim Jerusalem as the third holiest site in Islam, when the city was under Islamic rule, they had little interest in it.

As the Jews came, drained the swamps and made the deserts bloom, something interesting began to happen. Arabs followed. I don't blame them. They had good reason to come. They came for jobs. They came for prosperity. They came for freedom. And they came in large numbers.

Winston Churchill observed in 1939: "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population."

Then came 1948 and the great partition. The United Nations proposed the creation of two states in the region – one Jewish, one Arab. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and declared war.

Arab leaders urged Arabs to leave the area so they would not be caught in the crossfire. They could return to their homes, they were told, after Israel was crushed and the Jews destroyed. It didn't work out that way. By most counts, several hundred thousand Arabs were displaced by this war – not by Israeli aggression, not by some Jewish real-estate grab, not by Israeli expansionism.

In fact, there are many historical records showing the Jews urged the Arabs to stay and live with them in peace. But, tragically, they chose to leave.

Fifty-four years later, the sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of those refugees are all-too-often still living in refugee camps – not because of Israeli intransigence, but because they are misused as a political tool of the Arab powers.

Those poor unfortunates could be settled in a week by the rich Arab oil states that control 99.9 percent of the Middle East landmass, but they are kept as virtual prisoners, filled with misplaced hatred for Jews and armed as suicide martyrs by the Arab power brokers.

This is the modern real history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. At no time did the Jews uproot Arab families from their homes. When there were title deeds to be purchased, they bought them at inflated prices. When there were not, they worked the land so they could have a place to live without the persecution they faced throughout the world.

It's a great big lie that the Israelis displaced anyone – one of a series of lies and myths that have the world on the verge of committing yet another great injustice to the Jews.

By Joseph Farah

[takeo]

i fully agree with northlander and somewhat with victot but of course not with antizionist nor with newsguy, lomplighter or gatorade.

I just want to rectify the historical incorrectness of the last artcle:

"By 1930, all the land capable of being cultivated by the indigeneous Palestinians with the resources available to them was already under cultivation "
(Frances Newton, Fifty Years in Palestine, Coldharbor, 1940, p. 253).

"it has emerged quite definitely that there is at the present time and with the present methods of Arab cultivation no margin of land available for agricultural settlements by new immigrants"

(Palestine, Report on immigration, land settlement and development, Sir John Hope Simpson, cmnd 3686, His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1930).

Subcommittee II of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, established in September 1947 issued a report in November 1947 which stated under item 63:

"The village statistics for 1945 prepared by the Palestine administration and showing the position as at 1 April 1945 furnish interesting data regarding land ownership in Palestine. The total Arab land ownership is given in dunums (4 dunums equals approximately 1 acre), as being 12,574,774, as against a total Jewish ownership of 1,491,699. [...] "


Item 64 of that same report stated:
"The above statistics of population and of land ownership prove conclusively that the Arabs constitute a majority of the population of the proposed Jewish State, and own the bulk of the land"
(Source: Doc. C74 UNSCOP Report to the UNGA, Documents on Palestine, vol. 1, pp. 165, PASSIA, December 1997).

[takeo]

as well as:

"Estimated Population of Palestine 1870-1946
Arabs (%) Jews (%) Total

1870 367,224 (98%) 7,000 (2%) 375,000
1893 469,000 (98%) 10,000 (2%) 497,000
1912 525,000 (93%) 40,000 (6%) 565,000
1920 542,000 (90%) 61,000 (10%) 603,000
1925 598,000 (83%) 120,000 (17%) 719,000
1930 763,000 (82%) 165,000 (18%) 928,000
1935 886,000 (71%) 355,000 (29%) 1,241,000
1940 1,014,000 (69%) 463,000 (31%) 1,478,000
1946 1,237,000 (65%) 608,000 (35%) 1,845,000"

"Sources: The numbers in this table are estimates constructed from the following: Yehoshua Ben-Arieh, "The Population of the Large Towns in Palestine During the First Eighty Years of the Nineteenth Century, According to Western Sources" in Moshe Ma'oz, ed. Studies on Palestine during the Ottoman Period, Magnus, 1975; Alexander Scholch, "The Demographic Development of Palestine 1850-1882", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XII, 4, November 1985, pp. 485-505; "Palestine", Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edn, 1911; "Palestine", Encyclopedia of Islam, 1964; UN Document A/AC 14/32, 11 November 1947, p.304; Justin McCarthy, "The Population of Ottoman Syria and Iraq, 1878-1914", Asian and African Studies, XV, 1 March 1981; Kemal Karpat, "Ottoman Population Records and the Census of 1881/82-1893", International Journal of Middle East Studies, XCI, 2, 1978; Bill Farell, "Review of Joan Peters", 'From Time Immemorial', Journal of Palestine Studies, 53, Fall 1984, pp. 126-34; Walid Khalidi, From Heaven to Conquest: Readings in Zionism and the Palestine Problem until 1948, Institute for Palestine Studies, 1971 appendix I; Janet L. Abu Lughod, "The Demographic Transformation of Palestine", in Ibrahim Abu Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine: Essays on the Origin and Development of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Northwestern University Press, 1971 pp. 139-63."