Jewish fundamentalism in Israel

[Jorge]

The existence of a current of Jewish fundamentalism among the settler’s movement in Israel has been known for quite some time. The recent political events connected with Mr. Sharon’s failed disengagement plan, have resulted in exposing it more clearly in the light of Israeli public opinion. Jewish fundamentalism, in common with its Islamic counterpart, represents an attempt to formulate the Israel-Arab conflict as a conflict between two religions: Judaism and Islam. The practical implications of such an approach are extremely dangerous: while conflicts between states or nations may be resolved by the mutual acceptance of pragmatic considerations, conflicts between religions cannot; at the most mutual tolerance could prevail. Sadly, tolerance is not a virtue of fundamentalists of any religion.

It may be argued that Jewish fundamentalism in Israel is not worthy of attention since it represents only a fringe faction inside the political right. However, given the looming confrontation between the State of Israel and the settlers, inherent in any agreement initiative that may be undertaken, this fringe faction may well turn into the vanguard force of the political movement opposing the dismantling of settlements. Accordingly, Jewish fundamentalists should be exposed and denounced whenever the idea shows its ugly face and not blindly ignored as a group of lunatics.

One of the central tenets of Jewish fundamentalism in Israel is the conviction that the State’s paramount role is to uphold the Land of Israel or Greater Israel cause. As long as it continues to do so it deserves allegiance but, if the said State “betrays” that cause by, for instance, dismantling settlements, it will loose its legitimacy. The following quotes are enlightening:
“ If a government of Israel is allowed to implement an expulsion, a transfer, and to uproot Jews from their soil in the land of their forefathers, then the Zionist State will loose its prerogatives as the representative and spokesman of the Jewish people” (Adir Zik,Hatzofeh, 16.4)

“ My arrangement with the State of Israel is that as long as they don’t undermine my faith, my path, I am a law-observing citizen, and I educate toward that. But when someone contradicts the Halakha, then the Torah is above the laws of the State” (Hagi Ben Hartzi, Haharetz, 30.4)

The Halakha that Ben Hartzi refers to is not of course the whole building of the Halakha, but the statement that the uprooting of settlements in Eretz Israel is one of those situations when it is commanded than one should die rather than transgress them ( as sentenced (pozeked) by Rabbi Zvi Yehuda Kook)

To be continued…

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Jorge
The existence of a current of Jewish fundamentalism among the settler’s movement in Israel has been known for quite some time.

Your entire rabid post shows that whoever you cut and pasted this garbage from doesn't know anything about Jews, Judaism, Jewish fundamentalism, the settlers and Islamic Jihadism.

Sorry, no time now for a thorough reply. Hopefully others here, including most who are not even member of these Jewish communities, can easily rebut this anti-Semitic vitroil - you leftist turd.

[Mediocrates]

1 - About 50% of the Jews of YESHA self designate as "Secular".
2 - I am personally insulted by the insinuation that any level or religious adherence is considered 'fundamentalist'.
3 - This statement above alludes to the Spanish FM's diatribe that 50,000 Jewish zealots hold the whole world hostage.
4 - R. Kook was actually fairly liberal, in context.
5 - What is Jewish Fundamentalism?
6 - Criticism of Orthodoxy is its own intolerance.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
6 - Criticism of Orthodoxy is its own intolerance.

Damn! If only we had fatwas!

[Jorge]

Sometimes one gets the impression that some members of this Forum, under the strain of their compulsion to write as many Posts per day as possible, cannot spare the time to read carefully what others say before running to refute their arguments. Such is the case of Mediocrates Post #3 above, where he states a number of points which have little or no connection at all with what I said in the opening remarks of this Thread.

I’ll deal with them only for the benefit of other readers that may otherwise think that Israeli leftists are out to undermine and deride Jewish religion and its believers.

Sentences in blue are from Mediocrates #3:

1 - About 50% of the Jews of YESHA self designate as "Secular ".
A: quite possible.

2 - I am personally insulted by the insinuation that any level or religious adherence is considered 'fundamentalist' .
A: I would be as well. Since I didn’t say or even insinuate that, no reason at all for anyone to feel insulted.

3 - This statement above alludes to the Spanish FM's diatribe that 50,000 Jewish zealots hold the whole world hostage.
A: Which statement? If the Spanish FM said so I’d say he’s grossly exaggerating. I personally think that the settlers are holding hostage, not he whole world, but the whole of the Israeli population. I won’t go into it though because this is a clear political issue and this Section is Religion/Culture.

4 - R. Kook was actually fairly liberal, in context.
A: Why “was”? As far as I know he’s still alive. (Might be wrong though.) May be some confusion arises in that I quoted the son of the famous Reb Kook, the spiritual father of Gush Emunim. Whatever the case, even if the meaning of liberal has been considerably outstretched in later years, I wouldn’t go as far as calling neither the father nor the son, “liberals”. After all they laid the ideological foundations of the Messianic movement among the Greater Israel supporters.

6 - Criticism of Orthodoxy is its own intolerance .
The sentence is rather cryptic but, if the intention is to state that criticizing Orthodoxy is a sign of intolerance, I’d disagree. One could criticize Orthodoxy, Reformism, Kant doctrines, or whatever and to be a perfectly tolerant fellow.

5 - What is Jewish Fundamentalism?
This is actually the only pertinent point in said Post#3. As a matter of fact I opened this Thread in the hope of examining whether or not there’s a faction or sector of Jewish Fundamentalists in Israel (which requires clarifying what is meant by fundamentalism in general and the Jewish version in particular). If the answer were to be affirmative, how would it influence Israeli society at large?

I for one, would feel very relieved if we arrive to the conclusion that the fears, about the settler’s movement running the risk of being dominated by fundamentalist ideologies, were shown to be unfounded.
.

[Batman]

Did you ever watch the movie: The Trojan Horse?

You should only to discover that the Arabs consider all of Israel part of Jewish Fundamentalism.

Wake UP!

BEFORE WE GET INTO A DISCUSSION LET'S SEE WHAT IS THE FRAMING OF THIS POST AND WHO IS BEHIND IT, EXCEPT FOR JORGE-----------

JORGE--WHY SO MYSTERIOUS?

Why is there no source for your original post #1?

Where did you get it from? Who is the writer? where did this appear?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Maybe it's time we discussed Israel's radical leftist fundamentalists, from Shimon Peres to Zahava Gal'on to Ahmad Tibi.

[Ahava]

Maybe he wrote it himself..

[Oh Jerusalem]

Here's is the most fear demonic religious right winged Israel fundamentalist, Moshe Feiglin.

Lord have mercy upon our souls!

"The Feiglins" make a move to lead Israel
By israelinsider staff May 11, 2004

Moshe Feiglin, head of the Likud's Jewish Leadership faction, an apparent big winner in last week's referendum vote, has no problems admitting that his people are trying to replace the present leadership of the party. "It may take a year, or 20 years, it makes no difference. Certainly, we are aiming to lead," he says. Education Minister Limor Livnat recently warned that "foreign elements" in the Likud were trying to stage a "hostile takeover."

"Our beliefs are much closer to the charter of the Likud than are those of its present leaders," Feiglin told Israel Radio, one day after the Likud's rank and file members overwhelmingly defeated Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's proposal to stage a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. "They must understand that to appreciate the Israeli atmosphere, they must learn to look through spectacles of Jewish belief."

Feiglin said his goal is not to define the Likud as a religious-nationalist party: "30% of us do not wear yarmulkes, and I personally object to religious parties. The people of Israel simply want to remain connected to their Jewish roots," he said.

"We are saying that the Likud is not a rag that the prime minister or other elected officials can throw into the garbage," Feiglin said. "The Likud has its charter, and its institutions, and the MKs are mere representatives."

Feiglin said there was nothing strange about his efforts to lead the Likud. "Mofaz - who has been a party member for less time than me - also wants to take over and nobody has any complaints," he said.

Calling his faction middle of the road, Feiglin accused some Likud Knesset members of moving the party towards the far left - "towards the ideologies of (former ultra-left wing politician) Uri Avneri."

Asked if Sharon and pro-withdrawal ministers Ehud Olmert and Shaul Mofaz had a place in the party, Feiglin replied, "Of course, but not in its leadership."

The Jewish Leadership's active support for a vote in the Central Committee on Sharon's disengagement plan helped compel the prime minister to agree to a vote of all Likud members, where his son and at least some of his political advisers convinced him he would win easily.

The Jewish Leadership faction was seen as one of the big winners when the plan was defeated in the Likud referendum. Along with a number of other groups - the Yesha Council of Jewish Communities in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, and hard line Likud ministers led by Uzi Landau, Natan Sharansky and Yisrael Katz, the Jewish Leadership faction helped spearhead the campaign to defeat a plan backed by all of the party's leaders.

The anti-withdrawal campaign involved intensive and repeated face-to-face meetings with virtually every registered Likud member, and a 100,000-person demonstration against the plan in Gush Katif. In the space of just a week, an original 59-39 percent lead in the polls in favor of Sharon's plan was overturned and transformed into a landslide 60-40 vote against it.

Just the beginning for "the Feiglins"
Victory in the referendum, as dramatic as it was, may only be the beginning for "the Feiglins" -- and that's what is worrying officials, inside the Likud and outside. Even the term "Feiglins" is designed to associate the group with the "Kahanists" -- followers of Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose Kach party was banned as "racist" in the mid-80s.

MK Ahmad Tibi (Hadash-Ta'al) said last week that "the Likud controls the country, and Kahanists control the Likud." He added: "Everybody crumbled and bowed down to the Kahanists in the Likud, to Feiglin. Nobody dared to stand up to Feiglin. Likud Ministers did not dare stand up to Feiglin. Sharon assassinated Rantisi and threatened Arafat in order to promote his disengagement plan, but he would not dare stand up to Feiglin," he said.

There are at least superficial parallels between Feiglin and Kahane. Feiglin, born in Australia, is, like Kahane, an English-speaking immigrant who succeeded in creating a grass roots movement on the religious right. This week he announced his movement's "Jewish roadmap," including support for extending Israeli sovereignty over Gaza, Judea and Samaria and expelling Arabs who engage in terrorism. Arabs who accepted Israeli sovereignty could stay as permanent residents, with "human rights" but not citizenship.

Whereas Kahane's Kach movement emphasized the use of force to expel the Arabs, as symbolized by its flag of a Jewish star as clenched fist, Feiglin emphasizes the centrality of returning Israel to Jewish values and leadership which espouses them.

Haaretz correspondent Nadav Shragai wrote that the significance of the movement's victory transcended defeating the withdrawal plan. "This was an opportunity for settlers to directly connect with the general public in Israel," he said. "One of the lessons they've drawn from this is the potential importance of going door-to-door, leapfrogging politicians and the media, and sowing seeds for the future." Bonds were forged between the settlement movement and residents of the poorer development towns, Shragai wrote.

From "moral turpitude" to Likud leadership candidate
Feiglin was, with Benny Elon and Shmuel Sackett, a co-founder of Zo Artzeinu [This is our Land] movement, which generated massive non-violent demonstrations in the streets of Israel in protest of the Oslo Accords and the Israel handover of control to the Palestinian Authority.

The Israeli political establishment tried to stop Feiglin by putting him and Sackett on trial, convicting them on the charge of sedition, one of the first times such an allegation has been pressed in an Israeli court. They served months in jail.

Feiglin's sedition, as a crime of "moral turpitude," gave an Israeli judge reason to disqualify him from running for the Knesset for seven years.

The Jewish Leadership movement was born the evening before former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was murdered as a way to translate the street demonstrations into effective political action. While Elon chose to join the small National Union party, and today serves as Tourism Minister in the government, Feiglin eventually came to believe that the only way to achieve real change was to work within the Likud party.

"I thought it was crazy at first," Feiglin says of the decision to work within the party. "For me, the Likud was almost a leftist party and I had nothing in common with it. But ideologically, we decided it was the best party to represent the nationalist camp and the best way to reach our ultimate goal of establishing Jewish leadership in the country."

Feiglin wanted to challenge Sharon for Likud chairman in 2000, but he was not allowed to run, because he had been in the party for only seven months. In 2002, he ran against Sharon and Binyamin Netanyahu in the Likud primary. Although he did not campaign, he finished with a respectable four percent of the vote.

In the run-up to the general Knesset elections in 2003, Feiglin and his colleagues recruited tens of thousands of new members to the Likud, and elected more than 130 representatives to its raucous 2900-strong policy-setting Central Committee.

Feiglin's efforts led to Livnat's statement, on the eve of the Likud convention in January 2004, that right-wing extremists and criminal elements were trying to take over the Likud Party.

"There is an attempt by marginal, ideological groups in the Likud to take over the ruling party and by that, take over the state," Limor said in media interviews. Livnat said she was referring to "extremist factors, like [Jewish Leadership Movement leader Moshe] Feiglin and his friends, who never were part of the Likud movement, and are not real Likudniks."

"These people are not real Likudniks and their ideology cannot be allowed to prevail," Livnat told the Jerusalem Post. "We need to say out loud that the party must return to its senses. We must prevent them from taking over or the party and the state will be in danger."

Livnat added, "This is not democracy, this is anarchy." She did not explain what was undemocratic or anarchic about the movement in the Likud.

Talking to Israel Radio last week, Feiglin, whose grassroots efforts are being made democratically from within the ranks of the Likud, agreed with Livnat at least about the aim of the movement he leads.

"We have maintained the same goal all along: Building a layer of Jewish leadership and eventually taking over the state," Feiglin said.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
Maybe it's time we discussed Israel's radical leftist fundamentalists, from Shimon Peres to Zahava Gal'on to Ahmad Tibi.

Alright, let's do that. OJ, what do you have to say about them?
OJ: "Stupid Jews!"
OK, let's now go back to Jorge's fundamentalists.

[Mira~]

If peace were possible with the Palestinians by exchanging land for it, I would say to all Jews that we should be ready to make that exchange. We should be open to the idea that at some point, hopefully sooner but perhaps later, this exchnage could be possible. I sincerely and with all my heart and soul understand what our historic homeland means to religious Jews and the redemption of our people. At the same time, I don't worship it and I don't believe in the idea that land can be "liberated." People, on the other hand, are another story.

That's all I have to say in this thread.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Ahava
Maybe he wrote it himself..

Then he should use his full real name and identify that he is the official writer and where he's published. Unless he is just making a comment he should not make a THREAD with his OPINION.

I think most of us are more humble than that and unless we are published we should stick to sticking our opinions inside threads and NOT make a THREAD of an opinion.

That is my opinion. I can make a thread made up of my opinions and call it "Jewish Cowards and Arab Murderers who love to take drugs, legal and illigal, daydream, accuse and abuse the realistic idealists of Israel's frontlines." but I don't think it's appropriate for an entire thread.

Let Jorge identify the writer.

[Ahava]

Agreed, Batman.

[Mira~]

One more comment, and this is just echoing what Mediocrates said, and that is that it does a disservice to place a blanket label on any Jewish movement. There is tremendous variation just within orthodoxy itself.

[Jorge]

Re. my post #4. I was wrong: Reb Zvi Yehuda Kook died in 1982.
As to his views, which as I said, had a profound influence on the settler’s movement, the following paragraph is illustrative:

Nineteen years ago, on the very night that the decision of the United Nations to create the State of Israel was handed down, as the entire people rejoiced. I was unable to join in their happiness. I sat alone-quiet and depressed. In those very first hours I was not able to accept what had been done, that terrible news, that indeed "my land they have divided" had occurred! Yes, where is our Hebron-have we forgotten it?! And where is our Schechem, and our Jericho, where-will we forget them?! And all of Transjordan-it is all ours, every single clod of earth, each little bit, every part of the land is part of the land of God-is it in our power to surrender even one millimeter of it?!

(from: Nekuda, no.86, April26, 1985)