Is Peace Really Necessary At All?

[platypus]

IsrAdvoc in Post #64 answers for me on the one point about the Americans.
As for the "perfect sheep/immaculate sheep" of A. Einstein, I would offer in response That the Big Bad Wolf is the best friend a sheppard has: sheep tend to cuddle closely when they are being threatened.
While making this post along THIS thread I feel impelled to add an observation: I tend towards being Pro-Israel for sundry reasons; but, I confirm that I am greatly influenced by the Media
seeming to favor the horrible coverage of the terroristic violence being enacted against the Jews through these insane suicide bombings [Kamakasis!]
True, there are images of the Iraeli attacks against the Palestinians but not so many as the former mentioned here. Of
course, I watch "American" TV and this Gov supports Israel to all
outward appearences.
However, I am beginning to give second thought to the matter of
"territory claims begetting terroristic tactics!" Andthat applied to both factions I might add!
Problems present difficulties (even on a persona level) when one has few if any OPTIONS. Individuals commit suicide when they are deeply convinced they have no options available.
john

[Northlander]

I go on the same line as above by commenting that the kamikaze phenomenon in the pacific in WWII was used in large extent only in the end of the war. When the war was already lost for Japan. Of course its a desperate act. The Japanse didnt use it in the beginning. Nor did the palestinians. It becomes an easy way out when all hope is gone.

[NewsGuy]

Northlander,

You are right about that it is not in Israel's interest to become too dependent on any one trade partner, even if that partner is the U.S.

On the other hand, Israel cannot afford to go along with the EU's pro-terrorism policies that are designed to appease the Arab terrorists and to damage Israel. The EU's hypocrisy is really overwhelming.

But I have complete faith in Europeans that they will never be swayed by what they perceive as mudane matters like priciples and values. It's one thing for many Europeans to make fancy speeches and ceremonious proclamations and then shake hands very politely with all their dignitaries and munch on some wonderful Brie and bloodwurst. But at the end of the day, Europeans will invariably be guided by their prime directive of greed. Plain greed. They will not walk away from $2(?) Billion in Israeli business.

And other than greed, one of our wise European members has once said that the reason the EU will never impose a serious boycott on Israel is because then they will lose all leverage on Israel and will no longer have any influence on the Mideast peace process.

This is why "acceptance" of Israel is no reason for Israel to succumb to European dictates.

btw - We had an interesting discussion about Israel's dependence on EU business in a thread from February, called "Israel's trade dependency: reality check":

http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=1664#post1664

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Northlander
Its just stupid to grow too dependent of USA and i dont think that is the plan either. So you better belive that when it really comes to anything more than fancy talks Israel will start to look after its interests. And that is as always economics.
Im talking about what could happen here. I can guarantee that there will be resistance of bying more arms from Israel. Oranges, Pentium 4 processors what have you. A boycott. I dont think it will happen but it could in the future. Israel is losing large amounts of money compared to what it COULD make in an ideal situation.

More threats? Why wouldn't Israel amplify its relationship with the US in light of your statements?


Riddle me this - if Morocco took over Gibraltar and if you threatened a response, the OPEC cartle raised the price of oil by 50% what would you do? Do you think for example another Falklands war could occur today or would EUistan simply sit on its collective hands under the umbrella of post colonial compassion?

Is your bravado merely the echo of cowards and toothless policy?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Northlander
I go on the same line as above by commenting that the kamikaze phenomenon in the pacific in WWII was used in large extent only in the end of the war. When the war was already lost for Japan. Of course its a desperate act. The Japanse didnt use it in the beginning. Nor did the palestinians. It becomes an easy way out when all hope is gone.

Whispering Wind was not a terrorist act directed at civilians you dunderhead. It consisted of dragging people off the streets, plunking them at gunpoint into airplanes with only enough gas for a one way trip. A white bandana and the Glory of the Empire of Japan. While we were disintegrating their war machine capacity from the air we were inflicting a far greater damage on their trained pilots. They simply ran out of pilots so what better way to use the plane but as a bomb itself. It didn't require much skill and could inflict as much damage otherwise as long as you don't care too much about sending teenagers probably juiced up on sake to their deaths. Bully for you and your human wave attacks.

Do you think that Iran's use of waves of unarmed 14 year olds in their war against Iraq was some kind of holy dictat? No, they simply scooped up millions of children for whom they cared nothing and sent them to their deaths because it was cheaper than guns and ammo and rockets and trained tank crews. It was based on whatever modern military tactics one can gather from reading Quran all day.

[hagg323]

Originally posted by platypus
[Problems present difficulties (even on a persona level) when one has few if any OPTIONS. Individuals commit suicide when they are deeply convinced they have no options available.
[/B]

Yes, Individuals commit suicide when they are deeply convinced they have no options available (among other reasons, I guess). But do you honestly believe that these terror attacks really are random acts of stressed individuals that in their deep emotional despair they’ve gone temporally insane and were driven to irrational self-destruction??? Don’t fall for it. The media likes to depict an oppressed nation that fights a heroic war to achieve what we all so much admire and treasure: freedom. But this is truly not the case. These guys are using their own people to promote a greater cause that the media and most Europeans have yet to comprehend: get a hold of the entire land; drive all Israelis away; and to build a new ‘kingdom’ for the corrupted heads of the Palestinian authorities… and guess what? all on the expense of their own people, who are still too miserable and poor and mostly ignorant to realize it. Do you really think that the average Palestinian has anything to say about it? Do you honestly think that the mass support of the Palestinian’s ‘street’ to increase violence against Israel and to deprive themselves from working in Israel and put food on their table is by free will and choice? Think again, buddy.

[Mediocrates]

Nobody wakes up depressed and finds a bomb under their bed. This is organized, commanded and funded like any other enterprise. These people are screened, trained, supplied, targeted, transported and their families rewarded.

BTW if they didn't reward the families would all the weeping burkahs still prostrate themselves with thankfulness to Arafat and Allah? Hmmmm - I doubt it. How do we even know if any of the weeping mamas are real? By journalistic standards normally you're supposed to get two corroborating sources independently. Do you think CNN even bothers? Do you think they have any integrity at all?

[MGB8]

Northlander,

There are many more trading partners than Europe and the US. There is Russia, China, India, South Africa, Japan, the Korea's, Thailand, Singapore, Taiwan, Australia, Canada and all of South America.

Do you really think that Europe matters? Europe is not the sole, or even best supplier of any single good (with the possible exceptions of luxury cars and fashion.)

Moreover, as you have pointed out, Europe is not a monolythic entity, and the EU does not involve everyone, at least not yet.

There are also very viable grey markets.

So to my bretheren in Israel, I say "SCR-W EUROPE!"

[Northlander]

There are many more trading partners than Europe and the US. There is Russia, China, India, South Africa, Japan, the Korea's, Thailand, Singapore, Taiwan, Australia, Canada and all of South America.

Of course there are. But IF EU worked together it would still be a serious blow to Israeli economy.

Riddle me this - if Morocco took over Gibraltar and if you threatened a response, the OPEC cartle raised the price of oil by 50% what would you do?

With or without US cooperation Im sad to say that Morocco would be flattened. They could of course not keep an operation like that secret so I guess a few navies would make it impossible for them to move but IF they somehow succeded to take gibraltar by force the retaliation would be horrible. It would be absolutely impossible for EU to accept an attack. It would quicken the process to really unite europe. Some other oil producing countries like russia and norway and others would give europe fair deals to strengthen their own position. Then EU would act quickly before they lost to much face and money and I wouldnt even conclude the threat of nuclear arms. Even some of the Opec countries would have difficulties sleeping at nights. There are EU carriers and airforces too you know. It would be like an attack on florida. No one would even think the thought. Not a very realistic scenario but I get your point. My point is that after USA ,EU is still the number two power in the world. Military and economically.
Also its growing and the population grows bigger than the US. the infrastructure are already there so in the long run EU will surely have their own agenda. Its not an entity yet, but its obvious in what direction its moving. I dont want it, voted against it, but it will happen.

While we are at it. How come USA is sucking up to s.arabia?
Is it not a old fashioned deal? You give us oil and we protect you and can position our troops in your country?
Does it even matter what they do to their own population and how fundamental their government gets?
There is just as much hypocrisy in USA as EU. More in my opinion.
Arm s.arabia now, attack them later. Arm Saddam, attack him later.Arm the Talibans, attack them later. Etc. Maybe arm Israel now and at least stop defending them. Who knows, if Israeli politics threatens the oil interests then USA maybe will lose its patience with Israel. Its nothing but greed as you said.
The oil will start to run out sooner or later and it will be a virtual race for the best positions in getting it. From eu,usa, asia etc.


PS. To all americans on this forum: good luck in the WC quarter final against germany in soccer today.

[MGB8]

Northlander - you could be right, Israel could be a passing entity - THAT'S THE POINT! Israel needs to survive as the Jewish homeland, not just because it was so originally, or because it is the cradle of Judaism (and Christianity), but because it is the place where it IS NORMAL to be Jewish.

Non-jews don't understand this. But even in the US, where Judaism is failry well accepted (Lieberman's candidacy was huge for the Jewish people here), the country is still very much a Christian country, and you feel it.

Moreover, Israel gives the Jewish people control over their own destiny. Never again will we be dependant on others for our survival.

I also want to Emphasis the point that PALESTINE is a ROMAN WORD. IT has nothing to do with modern "palestinians," who should at best be called Palestinian Arabs. Before the romans changed the name to Palestine they called it JUDEA. Maybe we should start refering to the "Palestinians" as JUDEAN arabs. Actually, I think I will - its as accurate.

As for the EU, they can go F- themselves, for all that I care. Israel will survive without them. Europe is a continent of self-serving, imperialistic hypocrits (sp).

As for the US, it is less hypocritical than the EU because, outside of Bush, it really makes no claim of moral superiority. Everyone knows and accepts that the US acts out of self interest, along with a love of democracy and capitalism.

Europe pretends as if its actions come from some higher good, masking the real motivations. Maybe hypocrits is the wrong words, and liars is more accurate.

No, hypocracy, "punishing" Israel for actions that they themselves would and have taken, works well, also. Israel is less imperialistic than TODAY's France and Great Britain.

Please go read my post on the Arab-Israeli conflict board titled "why they hate us" and come back to me.

[Jorge]

Quote frpm MGB8 post 85:

As for the EU, they can go F- themselves, for all that I care. Israel will survive without them. Europe is a continent of self-serving, imperialistic hypocrits (sp).

Europe pretends as if its actions come from some higher good, masking the real motivations. Maybe hypocrits is the wrong words, and liars is more accurate.

The above quotation from MGB8 is just an example, among many others in this Forum, of what I'd qualify as an exaggerated criticism on Europeans regarding their views on the present israeli-arab confrontation.

The "crime" Europeans appear to be guilty of nowadays is to criticize the violent actions of both parties while showing more understanding and sympathy towards the predicament of the palestinians than that of the israelis. To the best of my knowledge
this way of apprehending the confrontation has not so far materialized into any concrete action other than a small contribution to the PA budget.

To call them hypocrites, liars, intriguants and so on, just because they dissent with israeli policies is unwarranted. A sizable segment of the israeli population also dissents; does it make them also hypocrites and liars? What about Asians, Africans and South Americans having also a similar position?

The current europhobia appears to ignore the fact that up to two years ago Europeans have been either neutral in the Israeli-arab conflict or sympathetic to Israel. Scandinavian countries , in particular, were openly friendly towards us. Why the change? Is it because suddenly they became infected by an anti-Semitic virus? Alternatively, could it be that the reason for the change is that our present policies
are indeed reprehensible? When your friend becomes your foe you should try to find out why before you start insulting him.

Also from MGB8 (#83) quote:

Do you really think that Europe matters? Europe is not the sole, or even best supplier of any single good
Yes , I do think that Europe matters. As a matter of fact good relationships with Europe are of the utmost importance for Israel. Europe is our most important trading partner and one of our dreams is that one day we'll become members of the European Common Market. May be, just may be, we could find other trading partners : Thailand, Taiwan, Uzbekistan, Papua and Timbuktu. But we have a unique cultural relationship with Europe ; Uzbekistan and Papua are not a viable alternative from the cultural point of view. You have to realize that in the Middle East we are a tiny inclusion surrounded by a hostile Moslem population; culturally we have little in common with them. A factor of the arab-israeli conflict, although not the most important, is that we are really a European enclave inserted into an strange environment. How do we manage? Through our unique ties with Europe: our songs compete in Eurovision, our sports teams compete in the European Leagues, our musicians tour European cities part of the year, research in Universities is closely tied up with them. There are few aspects of our life, except of course religion, which are not a part of a larger Eoropean scene. Israelis take their holidays in Europe and feel there at home because in everyday life we basically behave as they do;
even moroccan Jews feel more at home in France than in Morocco. You cut that and we become culturally isolated.


As for the EU, they can go F- themselves, for all that I care. Israel will survive without them

Of course we can survive without them; Jews survived in ghettos for hundreds of years. The question is : is that the future we envision for Israel?

[elke]

Jorge, very well-reasoned post.

[MGB8]

No, criticism isn't the problem. Embargo's, threats, non-sales (from England and Denmark), the scientific-community threat...these are attempt of Europe to strong arm Israel.

For what? For defending itself.

Europe has been quick to jump on stories of "massacres" that never happened. It is home of the international red cross that won't accept magen david adom as a symbol because it is "offensive" - ie. Jewish.

It has done Israel no favors, did not come to Israel's aid in any wars (nor offer), has sold a ton of arms to the Arab nations, especially the French who were (and probably are) actively helping Iraq and Iran gain nuclear power.

Belgium has its phoney suit against Sharon, with nothing against Assad, Arafat, and the Iotola Khumeini, not to mention prince Saud or Sadam Hussein.

The Europe who keeps trying to lessen the penalties and monitoring of Iraq, who scudded Israel only a decade ago.

European contries who allowed the UN to pass a "zionism is racism" resolution.

No, Europe is not "hated" for its criticism. Its hated for its hypocrisy.

[MGB8]

As for Jorge's other points (economic), that's litered with false analogies.

Thailand and other south asian countries are not Timbuktu, by a long shot.

The Korea's, Singapore, and Taiwan are huge producers of electronic and industrial goods. They also have some oil.

Australia and South America are great sources of food and raw materials.

The US and Canada, and Israel proper, have all the pharamaceuticals we could ever need.

The former Soviet Republics are also a source of oil and other raw materials.

No. Europe, while it has an impact, it is not in a position to even threaten israel.

When it does threaten Israel, it shows its true colours.

As for the Ghetto "analogy," that's ablatantly false analogy in of itself.

[elke]

You are right, MGB8, but it doesn't change the fact that Jorge is speaking of: that collaboration with Europe is very important, even if not essential, to Israeli scientific and cultural development. US is simply too geographically removed to fill that need, certainly as an exclusive partner.