Operation Defensive Shield Part 2

ibrodsky · 05-08-2002, 01:37 PM

There are reports that the IDF is preparing for a major assault on the Gaza Strip.

Should Sharon keep ratcheting up the response to suicide/homicide bombing, or does he need to show restraint?

There are already signs that the Palestinians are getting the message that the response to suicide/homicide bombings is too high of a price to pay.

There is talk among Palestinians that they have gone too far -- that now children are throwing their lives away (naturally, because they have been told over and over it's the thing to do!).

There is talk that suicide/homicide attacks simply justify harsh responses.

There is evidence that other Arab countries will never come to the PA's aid militarily.

The U.S. now agrees there has to be new Palestinian leadership.

Even some European leaders are getting tired of terrorist attacks -- particularly as they are getting a taste of it themselves (about a dozen French nationals killed in bus bombing in Pakistan today; German tourists blown up in Tunisia recently, more terrorist atacks in Spain, etc.).

Sharon must ensure that the response remains harsh, both to restrain the Arabs' ability to carry out attacks and (most important) to spur Palestinians to rebel against their own terrorist leaders who are bringing death and destruction down on the Palestinian people through their senseless and evil tactics.

What do you think?

Gatorade · 05-08-2002, 04:09 PM

As Thomas Friedman pointed out in this article

(http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...206201577.html)

Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation.

As Chistopher Hitchens writes in his newest article, "A simple thought experiment shows that if there were any sign of a two-state solution, suicide murders would increase and not decrease. In case you have forgotten, these obscene tactics were first employed when the Rabin-Peres government was in power and when there was much more negotiating "space" than there is now."

The bombings hit an all time high when Israel looked its weakest. Bombers thought they were going to bring glory to their people and would be worshiped as freedome fighters like our founding fathers. Now after Israel showed its strength, Israel had 3 or so weeks without a bombing.

Once it becomes too costly to Palestinians in terms of the price Palestinian society pays for this methodology, only then will the bombings stop. Once it becomes clear that Israel is going to use its strength to fight and fight back hard, the Palestinian terror groups will have a harder time recruiting suicide bombers because there will be no public glory in killing yourself when it clearly will not bring good to your society.

maco · 05-08-2002, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
There are reports that the IDF is preparing for a major assault on the Gaza Strip.

Should Sharon keep ratcheting up the response to suicide/homicide bombing, or does he need to show restraint?

There are already signs that the Palestinians are getting the message that the response to suicide/homicide bombings is too high of a price to pay.

There is talk among Palestinians that they have gone too far -- that now children are throwing their lives away (naturally, because they have been told over and over it's the thing to do!).

There is talk that suicide/homicide attacks simply justify harsh responses.

There is evidence that other Arab countries will never come to the PA's aid militarily.

The U.S. now agrees there has to be new Palestinian leadership.

Even some European leaders are getting tired of terrorist attacks -- particularly as they are getting a taste of it themselves (about a dozen French nationals killed in bus bombing in Pakistan today; German tourists blown up in Tunisia recently, more terrorist atacks in Spain, etc.).

Sharon must ensure that the response remains harsh, both to restrain the Arabs' ability to carry out attacks and (most important) to spur Palestinians to rebel against their own terrorist leaders who are bringing death and destruction down on the Palestinian people through their senseless and evil tactics.

What do you think?

I say just keep going in everytime they decide to bomb us. When they get tired of being locked up in houses and not having enough food and more of their own people dying, maybe it will end.

I support P.M. Sharon in every way. Innocent lives are worth it.

Kim

cerulean · 05-08-2002, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
There are reports that the IDF is preparing for a major assault on the Gaza Strip.
...
What do you think?

There's no doubt that there's a major terrorist infrastructure in place in the Gaza Strip, and I can't think of any other way to get rid of it. I hate to think of the soldiers who are certain to die in this operation, however, although the net effect will be to save lives, I'm sure. I'm glad I'm not the one who gives the orders.

Vic · 05-09-2002, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Gatorade
As Chistopher Hitchens writes in his newest article...

Where? Is there an URL?
Thx

Gatorade · 05-09-2002, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Vic

Where? Is there an URL?
Thx

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i...513&s=hitchens

Get out your dictionary. Why dp people purposely use big words to make them appear smart?

Hitchens is way out there on this subject by the way. He feels that there is a significant segment of Israelis that intends to annex the West Bank that don't get press and are using a policy of annoying the Palestinians just enough for them to fight back through settlements. Then when the Palestinians fight back the Israelis will be able to take the high moral ground for military incursions.

On the TV the other night he was saying that Israel incursions into the West Bank were two fold (1) for self defense of Israel citizens and this was justified. (2) To expand Israel, which he said was not justified.

I think he is a bit of nut case who tries to take positions just to create argument

**NewsGuy** · 05-09-2002, 02:23 PM

Well, as the IDF concentrates forces near the Gaza strip, an "Order 8" was issued, calling up an unspecified number of reservists to active duty.

When Order 8's are issued, it means very serious business. Until the original "Operation Protective Shield," Order 8's were only issues at times of war, so far as I know.

I think ibrodsky is right. Israel is preparing a "major assault" to finish the job that was interrupted by world pressure.

**NewsGuy** · 05-10-2002, 12:38 PM

In Jenin, Israel sent in ground troops to protect Palestinians civilians from being harmed, although the process cost Israel the lives of 23 soldiers.

Just a reminder of the Palestinian view of Israel's use of ground troops, as reported by CNN, which interviewed Tabaat Mardawi, a senior member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad who surrendered to Israeli forces in Jenin:

Mardawi said he and other Palestinian fighters had expected Israel to attack with planes and tanks. He spoke enthusiastically about Israel's decision to send in infantry.

"It was like hunting ... like being given a prize. I couldn't believe it when I saw the soldiers," he said. "The Israelis knew that any soldier who went into the camp like that was going to get killed."

He added: "I've been waiting for a moment like that for years."

(http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=5731#post5731)

Anyway, my question is if the Israeli operation in Gaza happens, should Israel again sacrifice the lives of its soldiers (perhaps even more will die in Gaza than in Jenin), just to protect the Palestinian civilians who anyway support the terrorists in their midst. Or, should Israel just use other means like planes and missiles to eliminate Gaza's terrorism infrastructure?

cerulean · 05-10-2002, 12:52 PM

[i]
Anyway, my question is if the Israeli operation in Gaza happens, should Israel again sacrifice the lives of its soldiers (perhaps even more will die in Gaza than in Jenin), just to protect the Palestinian civilians who anyway support the terrorists in their midst. Or, should Israel just use other means like planes and missiles to eliminate Gaza's terrorism infrastructure? [/B]

To simplify:

On one hand, we have young men and women whose mothers very much want them to stay alive, but realize they have to fight. On the other side, we have mothers who want their sons and daughters to die as glorious martyrs.

Maybe both sides can get their wish.

cerulean · 05-10-2002, 12:57 PM

Of course, I don't want anyone to die - I have to make that clear.

L@mplighterM · 05-10-2002, 01:58 PM

Unless I?ve grossly misunderstood the situation the Palestinian militants were continuously asked to surrender via loudspeakers. Once under the pretense of surrender they lured the Israeli to their slaughter.

Not once have I read anywhere where the Israeli soldiers enjoyed their combative roles. The Palestinians on the other hand enjoyed killing Israeli soldiers to a point that exceeded the basic fundamental values for life.

As I see it Israelis kill for necessity but Palestinians kill for the joy of killing a Jew.

The last conflict was one where the IDF fought under a microscope. The whole world was watching ready to condemn Israel for defending itself.
In fact the criticism began before the incursion into the West Bank and grew steadily in the following days. Israel knew if they would have fought the battle from the air there would have been fewer Israeli casualties but the potential existed for a higher civilian loss of life.

So Israel embarked on a mission that no other civilized society would undertake namely sending in ground troops. Their reward for this brave action has been baseless accusations from various organizations in the world.

Now again Israel is faced with the possibility of having to send forces into the Gaza Strip again. Send in the helicopter gun ships whatever it takes to reduce the loss of life in the IDF.

Kill everyone that?s armed or that shows resistance.

Of course I don't want anyone to die.

ibrodsky · 05-10-2002, 02:02 PM

I think Israel needs to take both into account.

Certainly Israel should not just carpet bomb Gaza, but Israel is a small country and can't afford large numbers of casualties, either.

There was an editorial several weeks ago by a Charlotte West saying that the Palestinian people bear collective guilt for their acquiesence to and even widespread support of terrorism.

Personally, when I see huge crowds in Gaza marching, with many wearing ski masks and shooting in the air, and the rest in frenzy shouting "Death to the Jews!," it leads me to conclude that one or two well-placed bombs could do wonders... there certainly are few if any innocent civilians at these marches.

L@mplighterM · 05-10-2002, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I think Israel needs to take both into account.

Certainly Israel should not just carpet bomb Gaza, but Israel is a small country and can't afford large numbers of casualties, either.

There was an editorial several weeks ago by a Charlotte West saying that the Palestinian people bear collective guilt for their acquiesence to and even widespread support of terrorism.

Personally, when I see huge crowds in Gaza marching, with many wearing ski masks and shooting in the air, and the rest in frenzy shouting "Death to the Jews!," it leads me to conclude that one or two well-placed bombs could do wonders... there certainly are few if any innocent civilians at these marches.

My feelings exactly but there would be War Crimes Tribunal in Nuremberg again. The whole Israeli cabinet and the commanders, etc would be arrested if anything along that line was ordered and delivered.

Vic · 05-10-2002, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Personally, when I see huge crowds in Gaza marching, with many wearing ski masks and shooting in the air, and the rest in frenzy shouting "Death to the Jews!," it leads me to conclude that one or two well-placed bombs could do wonders... there certainly are few if any innocent civilians at these marches.

The last statement is quite correct, the trouble is that everyone speaks about a war, which is something played along totally different lines. From the practical point of view such a strike would likely spare more civilian lives than any "permissible" military action. But ours is a bureaucratic world.

alexbmn · 05-10-2002, 06:35 PM

hmm i wonder who would arrest them? the victorious Allied armies?No Israel isnt going to carpet bomb(,nobody had problems when Russians wasted Chechnia though ) but it would do a world of good.