Fascination with Rabin

[Oh Jerusalem]

As Donna pointed out, this existing thread pretty much discusses this topic. Pity to have two threads on the same subject.

But to your point, AJL, as someone who abhored Rabin and hasn't missed him for a second, nevertheless, ends do not justify means.

How would you like it if anyone who hates a politician goes out and assasinates him? There's no end to such a potential collapse of society.

In addition, as a staunch anti-Rabin person myself, he was not a dictator. At least no more than any other Israeli politician. Maybe the word you're looking for is demagogue. But then so was Barak and so is Sharon, in my opinion.

Of course, the bottom line is whether Yigal Amir is the one responsible for Rabin's murder in the first place. Again, that should be discussed on the Rabin assasination conspiracy thread.

[Ophra]

This thread stinks.
Yetzchak Rabin was many things to many people.. but first and foremost he was a patriot .. he loved this country .
Strip away your religious believes.. your political leanings .. be honest ??
Is there any one amongst you that thinks you even come close ??
Give me a break.

[Oh Jerusalem]

This thread stinks.
Yetzchak Rabin was many things to many people.. but first and foremost he was a patriot .. he loved this country.

What did he love enough to kill the Jews on the Altalena?

Strip away your religious believes.. your political leanings .. be honest ??

He's directly responsible for bringing in Arafat and his minions, arming the terrorists and the major increases in terror that we received in his land for peace escapade called the Oslo Accords.

This has nothing to do with religion and little with politics. He singlehandedly brought upon Israel the biggest disaster the state has been through.

And it's not over yet.

Is there any one amongst you that thinks you even come close ??
Give me a break.

I've seen no one here announcing their candidacy for the Israeli prime minister slot.

Enjoy your legendary hero.

[Ophra]

He wasn't a hero OJ... just a man. He did the best he could. He tried.
Don't condemn him for trying what he thought was best at the time.
Do not turn brother against brother...
United we stand .. divided we fall..

[Oh Jerusalem]

He wasn't a hero OJ... just a man. He did the best he could. He tried.
Don't condemn him for trying what he thought was best at the time.

So all of a sudden politicians should not be held responsible for their failures?

I don't buy this. He had plenty of chances to resign.

You take the job - you accept the responsibility.

Do not turn brother against brother...
United we stand .. divided we fall..

Amazing how Rabin lovers never said that.

And of all people Rabin turned Jew against Jew with his own public statements, leading to some of the worst polarization between Israelis and delegitimizing those who did not swallow his and the Labor party's lukshen.

If candid talk and pointing out reality leads you to hate, I suggest you continue to close your eyes to the truth and threads like this one so you can pretend that a 1000 Israel deaths doesn't make a difference. So much for brotherly love.

[KettleWhistle]

As Donna pointed out, this existing thread pretty much discusses this topic. Pity to have two threads on the same subject.

OJ,

Yes, I have seen that thread, but I believe its a bit off. My original question was in regards to fascination many people, both on left, and on the right of the political spectrum have with Rabin. You may or may not agree with his policies, but I just see no redeeming qualities in that man.

But to your point, AJL, as someone who abhored Rabin and hasn't missed him for a second, nevertheless, ends do not justify means.

How would you like it if anyone who hates a politician goes out and assasinates him? There's no end to such a potential collapse of society.

In addition, as a staunch anti-Rabin person myself, he was not a dictator. At least no more than any other Israeli politician. Maybe the word you're looking for is demagogue. But then so was Barak and so is Sharon, in my opinion.

Of course, the bottom line is whether Yigal Amir is the one responsible for Rabin's murder in the first place. Again, that should be discussed on the Rabin assasination conspiracy thread.

Well, I don't believe in this conspiracy theory, but I do believe that Rabin was more than just a demagogue. He went against desires of people he was supposed to represent on very important issue. I believe he was a dictator in the making, and I thank Yigal Amir for getting of him not because I think it's ok to assisinate any leader you don't like, but because what Rabin was doing was treasonous.

[KettleWhistle]

This thread stinks.
Yetzchak Rabin was many things to many people.. but first and foremost he was a patriot .. he loved this country .
Strip away your religious believes.. your political leanings .. be honest ??

I don't have any religious beliefs. Politically I am a libertarian. To be honest regarding Israel's territorial issues, I consider all of Eretz Israel to be my motherland. And to be honest with you, a person who wants to give a chunk of my homeland to our enemies is not patriot, but a traitor.

Is there any one amongst you that thinks you even come close ??
Give me a break.

No, I never came close to betraying Israel and the Jewish people the way that Rabin has.

[Sheherazade]

I don't have any religious beliefs. Politically I am a libertarian. To be honest regarding Israel's territorial issues, I consider all of Eretz Israel to be my motherland. And to be honest with you, a person who wants to give a chunk of my homeland to our enemies is not patriot, but a traitor.

No, I never came close to betraying Israel and the Jewish people the way that Rabin has.

If you have no religious beliefs, why do you consider all of Eretz Israel to be your motherland? On what basis do you come to that conclusion if not biblical?

[KettleWhistle]

If you have no religious beliefs, why do you consider all of Eretz Israel to be your motherland? On what basis do you come to that conclusion if not biblical?

Because Jew doesn't mean just religion. It also designates ethnicity. As a matter of fact, it is only in the Americas (both North and South) that Jews are veiwed as a religion. Pretty much everywhere else in the world Jews are viewed as an ethnic community, just like the Greeks, Italians, or Irish, to name just a few.

[Sheherazade]

Because Jew doesn't mean just religion. It also designates ethnicity. As a matter of fact, it is only in the Americas (both North and South) that Jews are veiwed as a religion. Pretty much everywhere else in the world Jews are viewed as an ethnic community, just like the Greeks, Italians, or Irish, to name just a few.

Oh I don't know about that completely. My family comes from Russia and Austria. How far are we going back as far as "ethnicity" is concerned? I have auburn hair and hazel eyes, far from Semitic looking. What about converts? Are they ethnically Jewish too? Is Eretz Israel their "motherland" as well?

[KettleWhistle]

Oh I don't know about that completely. My family comes from Russia and Austria. How far are we going back as far as "ethnicity" is concerned? I have auburn hair and hazel eyes, far from Semitic looking. What about converts? Are they ethnically Jewish too? Is Eretz Israel their "motherland" as well?

King David had blue eyes, red hair, and freckles, so I'd say the whole "Semitic look" is just bunk. I also have auburn hair (but I got a nice Jewish shnobel (nose) though ), and my ancestors, going four generations back, are from Ukraine, Romania, Souther part of Russian, and Austria. But where they are from is quite irrelevant because ethnicity is doesn't depend on where you are born or what your citizenship might be. I was born in Russia, but I was never reffered to as "Russian" until I came to U.S. And I do not consider myself a Russian, nor have I ever had any loyalty to that country. I don't look like a Russian, my name is not a Russian name, and my mother's gefilte fish is definetly not a Russian dish.

And Jews are not the only ethnic group to live in diaspora as a cohesive community. I have Armenian friends who lived in the U.S. for three generations, yet they consider Romania to be their homeland. Many Irish-Americans feel same way about Ireland. Why shouldn't we feel same way about our homeland?

But regarding the converts, it is certainly not such a straight-forward issue. They are obviously not ethnic Jews/Israelites. However, did you know that during the conversion they in fact pledge allegiance to Eretz Israel? Many of them do not because many do not convert out of a sincere conviction, but because of familiar issues, such as intermarriage, or because they like some aspects of Judaism. Regardless, they plegde that they have become one with the Nation of Israel. So I believe this is a rather hard question to answer. But luckly for me, I don't have to worry about this. I know who I am, and who my ancestors were. I traced it five generations back. And I know the history of my people. The convictions that I stated above come from this knowledge.

[Sheherazade]

You sound like you could be my cousin.
Where in the Ukraine? My grandmother was from Katrinislav.(sp?)
Five generations, were they all from Eastern Europe?

[Mediocrates]

But regarding the converts, it is certainly not such a straight-forward issue. They are obviously not ethnic Jews/Israelites.

It sounds like you mean Azkenazic and not "Jewish". BTW, The bar is actually quite higher in terms of observance than for non converts. And, it is a sin to refer to converts as such. Once someone is a Jew they are a Jew, period.

However, did you know that during the conversion they in fact pledge allegiance to Eretz Israel?

That's not exactly true.

Many of them do not because many do not convert out of a sincere conviction, but because of familiar issues, such as intermarriage, or because they like some aspects of Judaism.

Many of whom do not what? The people who plan to covert and do not? You have no way of knowing that.

Regardless, they plegde that they have become one with the Nation of Israel. So I believe this is a rather hard question to answer.

No it's quite simple. Professor Bernard Lewis captures it quite well when he distinguishes the European usage of the word 'nation' from the American usage. In Europe a country is a place and a nation is a people. In the USA the terms are interchangeable.

[Sheherazade]

"Jews who have converted from another religion."
Do you consider that the Eretz Yisroel is their 'motherland' as well, especially if we are not talking about the bible?

[KettleWhistle]

You sound like you could be my cousin.

I think of all the Jews as extended family.

Where in the Ukraine? My grandmother was from Katrinislav.(sp?)
Five generations, were they all from Eastern Europe?

I never heard of Katrinislav, but there were many small villages with almost exclusively Jewish population that were completely anhilated during WWII. My ancestors lived in a couple of such small villages on the very south of Ukraine, pretty much on the border of Bessarabia/Moldavia.

However, that's just one side of my family. The other side of my family were from Austria and Romania. Two of my grandparents moved from Romania to Soviet Union in 1939 to escape the Nazis.